My concern was that over time he developed a strong relationship for his stepson that has so many limitations and allows her to control him. If getting their little brother became a habit, would he then develop a relationship with him. At the time, I did state that what he did in his place was his business, but that arrangement wouldn't work for me once we got remarried. We would then be dealing with her controlling ways with 2 boys instead of 1. She would have another way to manipulate him.

By the way, she did end up marrying the father to her last child.

I specifically asked the advise of men, because I knew I would get the perspective of other women that mirrored mine. Of course there would be some exceptions. I am trying to understand my husband. I hope and pray he to would go to great lengths to understand me.

TEK

I understand your concerns and I share in your opinions. My crack about love busters relates to how we, as human beings, often express our concerns in ways that are counterproductive AND Harley has a plan for that. Read about love busters.

Let me give you an example. Right now, my youngest is having problems at school for various reasons. His mother writes this email to his teacher that was confrontational. She was right, but confrontational and she didn't see that until it was too late. Now we have two problems: helping our kid and changing the perspective the school has on the cause of the problem. We needed their help and human beings that they are, they are trying to protect themselves from a needlessly combative mother.

Harley's love buster concepts teach us how to handle communication in a relationship, a road map as it were, to get both partners on the same page and into POJA.

Think of marriage like a business. The more you know, the more return you get for your emotional investment.

I am totally impressed that husband is willing to learn. WOW!

There is hope in that attitude. But do believe it will take him time to get with the program that you are leading him to. And the more you know, the more effective you will be in exercising that leadership. Nothing wrong with leading around a male. You ladies do it all the time. Do it now. But know where you are leading him by getting ahead and having the solid knowledge to be effective.

Does that ring any bells? Did I do ok with my explanation and premise?

Larry

Larry, you did great with your explanation/premise. I fully understand the example about your son and his teacher. I agree many times the message gets lost in the delivery.

I explored a little in the forum about pregnancy within an affair. A lot of the stuff I wrote should have been posted in that forum. It's good to get opinions/insights from other peoples perspectives. Of course I notice the tone difference between the responses given by people personally experiencing the situation opposed to the people who see it from the outside. Also, you can tell the ones who are truly healed versus the ones that are still in the early stages of recovery or not recovering at all.

All four of my children are married and I have shared this site with my 3 daughters. I have yet to share it with my son. It takes a little more convincing for the male species.(most of the time, but there are exceptions)

I have sharedthis site too with my children. DD25 and DSs 22 and 19. I explained it as a model for intimacy, trust and good communication practices in thier relationships. A guard against familiarity.


Larry has done a stellar job with his stuff and has more experiance with OCs and the dynamics involved. Hats off.

I was thinking Tek, Your H left you for OW, Why? You are obviously the more sincere and unselfish choice. Theres a reason for my question and it might help in understanding what the power she holds over him beyond the children.

Its been said here that ppl affair down and its seems so true in this sitch. He was married to her for awhile. They must have developed a way they deal with each other and I was wondering did she use guilt to control him? More importantly, does he still live in guilt? How far has he gotten in putting his past bad judgement by leaving you behind?

Its my take that his relationship with the boys is the only one he feels he can be proud of and gives him feelings of personal accomplishment. He left you, someone who really loved him and made a mistake by being with OW who he found out to late was a train wreck.

Maybe you guys have allready proccessed this one between you to some degree but I thought it was worth mentioning. The hard work and sacrifice of caring for the children certainly is commendable and is what any parent addresses as a priority if they are responsible and you guys certainly are. I just wonder how much you two have to sacrifice needlessly between each other to take care of the children. It seems that OW has some unholy hold on H and he doesn't see it. Maybe guilt driven and with a heart to do the best for his kids but taking care of himself is what they will benifet from in the end. Taking care of his relationship with you,(whom I admire), will be the best thing for him also IMHO

Tabby, I know I am not in the situation these guys are and they are in active care of children. I guess I can only respond about the "loving you wife first" thing. with how I dealt with my wifes first son who came to live with us at 13.

We had a 1 1/2 year old duaghter and my wife had overcome cervical cancer but had not stopped drinking at that point. Thats another whole story but one of the things W had cried over for years was how her son was kiddnapped twice and she had not seen him for 8 years so I was hoping her reuniting with him would help heal her past wounds. Instaed with her drinking she verbally attacked the kid and accused him of all the things she was afraid of herself. Mostly turning out like her own mother. I had to protect the boy from her outrageous venom and still tryed to deal with Moms emotional issues but she was not listening to anyone and got worse and worse untill I had to leave for my own sanity. I talked to the boy and let him know she was wrong and when the opportunity came to send him back to his Dad I asked him what he wanted to do he chose to leave. He understood that I was involved with his Mom for the sake of both her and my daughter and my responsiblity to them. He also knew I was doing the best I could for everyone and I couldn't see him verbally abused or accused of stuff that was in my wives imagination. He also knew I loved my W and wnated her to get better even if I could not live with her like that.

That was what I guess was a plan B time for my wife and she would thank me for leaving when she was acting that way 2 years later. WE eventually got back together and raised our children and did much better together untill she relapsed when daughter was 16. I felt that them seeing my wives emotional instability and my protection, even if sometimes enabling, of my wife taught them that being honest with themselves and in relationships was the top priority in marriage. Did I act out of love for W when I disagreed with her and act with reasonable fairness towards what was really important? I certainly thoght so however misguided I might have been, and they saw that. They told me to grow a pair when Mom went off the deep end eventually and all I had hoped for, her mental and emotional health, our lives getting old and laughing at stupid mistakes, was gone and I fell apart.
Just to point out one thing I noticed with Wifes family, Her Mom, a raging died on the streets alcoholic had 9 children. The first 4 were taken away and raised by foster care and relatives and they all have emotional and drug abuse problems. The other five lived with her and the crazy stepdad who chased them around with a shotgun and do not have these issues. Their parents died in the streets and lived in terrible circumstances asthey were critisized and laughed at by the community but the children who lived with them, although not having a lot of atvantages in life took care of them and processed thier own emotions without substance abuse. Why is that? Probably a lot of reasons but one might be that they saw the differance between what we think love is and caring for others and ourselves.

LOving someone does not mean happy times all the time and does not mean getting walked on. Sometimes you sacrifice and others do not even see it. Do we really want them to? Did we really place it on the altar or did we do it only to throw it in thier face later? My W and I never wanted our children to emotionally understand what we went through as children. We accomplished that more than I ever want them to understand. I now am sticking around for the questions that they will have about why Mom was the way she was when the fears come into thier lives as circumstances will do. One thing they know is I loved thier Mom with all my heart and capacity to do so and I will never leave them. If mom could hurt me like this and I dealt with it they believe I will be there for them to the end.

I don't pretend to have had the marriage I wanted or have not made grave mistakes but as for whats its worth, my devotion to W showed my children I stuck. Now as they ask me about life I admit I made mistakes and take responsibility for them and point out this site and MB principles as how to be responsible to yourself and your marriage. Its not marriage at all cost. That goes against what God wants for us or designed it to be

SortedSomeOut.

If I read correctly you stated that the OW and my husband married. Well, they never married. Believe it or not I never really got the whole story only bits and pieces. He left me shortly after the discovery. They met when she was pregnant with her first child. (I think this one was by a married man, but he was closer to her age) I think she was around 17 or 18. He was her knight in shining armour and she was his damsel in distress. The carried on the affair for about 2 years before I found out about it. She still lived at home with her parents. I don't think they ever lived together, other than for a couple of months if any. When she gave birth to his child she was still living at home.

Several years after we divorced, he stopped by the house to apologize. I had the opportunity to ask him why did he do it and what part did I have to play in it. His reply was that I was a perfect wife and I did everything I wife could do. He had the affair because he could. He was never accountable in our first marriage. He was self-employed with a business we built together and this allowed him much free time during the day. I was in management and was busy usually all day. He did all of his playing during the day. He never stayed out at night and we spent much of our time together in the evening. So it was easy for hme to carry on his affair.

As far as him feeling guilty, I have thought the same thing. I think he does alot of what he does out of guilt. I also agree that this is the only thing he can say he is proud of. He wears fatherhood like a badge of honor. I am not being sarcastic when I say that. He has mentioned to me that he has not been successful at mainly anything.

I love him and I'm trying to be patient with him while he sorts this stuff out. I have introduced him to MB and I hope he is able to benefit from it's healing and advise on how to handle our situation with the OC1. I have to differentiate between the 2 boys, because there isn't any controlling going on using his bio son. He doens't see it as contolling and he gets rather upset when I say that it is.

He has promised to read SAA as soon as I'm finish reading it. Actually, I think I will just let him read it before I finish it. There are some issues we need to address. I think he will better understand after he reads the book.

There are certain events that triggers memories that are tucked away in the back of your mind. I'm ok as long as I don't dwell on them. But I want him to understand the role he may play in recalling those memories. At times there are things he does for the OC1(the one that he is not the bio dad) that comes across as benefiting her. He enables her to be irresponsible when he takes on things that she should be doing. It would be different if she was not capable mentally or financially. But that is not the case here. I know some of you will read this and say, how selfish of me.

She uses him to her benefit. Right now she has put a limit on when he can see the OC1 because she was upset. That will probably change because I recently found out she is pregnant with child #4. She will need him to become full time again. Or at least getting him the regular 3 days a week. But then again he's 12 and she may soon begin to use him as babysitter to 5 year old younger brother. I get tired of the control, but he doesnt'. He sees it as just another opportunity to spend time with the OC1. How long do you do this before it takes a toll on the marriage. In normal circumstances you take her to court. But this is not normal and he can't take her to court. I feel our marriage has suffered and I have suffered needlessly because of this.

THere is a way to handle this so our marriage doesn't suffer needlessly. But my husband has to understand that first. I hope he can before the damage is too severe.

The first thing I hope he will consider is the POJA. This will help me tremendously in healing emotionally and staying healthy. We very rarely discuss anything surround the boys. I am usually informed after arrangements are made. Or after I inquire about what's going on. If I question him, he says that he didn't know he had to get my permission. He has made some adjustments, and he reminds me of those adjustments. But they are normal things for accountability.

TEK

Uh


For another six years if you plot and scheme together. And during that time, it will not take a toll on the marriage, it will help the bonding between you and husband.

As guys get older, they work better in a team. I could give you personal examples, but no point. I betcha you get it anyway.

YOU know women. Including those who live their lives as a train wreck. YOU can help HIM understand if you figure out how to do it without Love Busters. Read the chapter

If your attitude is to help him, it will help YOU! POJA means you BOTH have to listen to what the other is saying and what they are NOT saying. That one is hard to learn. Hey, you can babble on about wishing you could take her to court. THAT will put you solidly on his side. I believe that emphasizing what you can do to help OC1 will go a long way to turning hubby around.

It would me. I totally relate to his situation.

Larry

Larry, a lot of your advise has been good and on point, but this one stinks. Plotting and scheming takes a toll on any relationship. It smells of dehonesty and deceit. We do that next 6 years plotting and scheming, the boys grow up and go their way about their own life, and what do we have.

I am not about to do that so he can continue his behavior. Then all I will be is an enabler. He will be satisfied and I will be totally drained, emotionally. Here is a quote I read in the forum, but I can't remember who wrote it. "You can choose the sin, but you can't choose the consequences" He chose to have this affair which resulted in him taking on the role of father to her child. They never solidified their relationship by marriage or living together to establish a commonlaw marriage. (although that is no longer recognized in our state). So he has no rights to OC1. As I see it he will have to continue playing her game and he playing his in order to see the OC1. HOnestly, I am not willing to do that. Their are some BOUNDARIES and ACCOUNTABILITY stuff that must be considered and practiced in order to protect our marriage. If after we go through the MB course and he does not get it, then I have a decision to make. I am not the perfect one in this marriage, but I am trying to do what I can to save it. He wants to save it as well. But he feels that it can be done if I just go along with the game the way it's been played for years. NOt a good thing. THat is the very selfish side of him. I have gone along with the game reluctantly for this long. I can't and will not continue it any further than necessary.

I have an attitude to help him do what is right. Keep this in mind we don't have a problem with surrounding his bio son, because she con't control him using him. That should tell you that I have an attitude to help him.

Tek you are right about not having to live like this for years and continuing to cement his behavior issues deeper into his habits.

I think that if he really opens his mind to MB he will see the light and if you need to make it uncomfortable for him till he does thats its reasonable. The disconnection between you two is obviuosly a concern for you. Confrontation in marrige is good done right and fairly. Its part of growing

Then you can both keep that connection to the boys on terms you agree with enthusiasm and positive teamwork. Because both of you would never do anything to harm or exclude any child IMO.

Other experts here will be able to discern how to get his attention abiut the OC and OW issue without major LBs.

There are ways to handle the continued relationship with OC1 that is not scheming or deceitful. Keep everything above board by applying boundaries and instituting POJA. It seems so simple to me, but not to him. Hopefully while we go through the MB course he will see it. I have introduced him to some of the articles and SAA and HNHN book. He hasn't taken the initiative, yet. But I am hopeful. There are 3 things in his life that he approaches rigorously; his relationship, his workout and his work he does with his fraternity. I want our marriage to rank up there. Really it should be first and everything else fall in line after that. If your marriage is solid than there is nothing you can't handle together.

He spends countless hours on the computer doing work for his club, and hours searching info on sports. Give you an example. I sent him an email 2 weeks ago addressing what I would need to make me emontionally secure, and at the same time I asked him what he needed from me so he could be emotionally ok with our present issues. He has yet to respond. But I just got an email forwarded from him about the Lakers and Miami basketball teams. I watch sports with him several times a week, because this is what he likes. We purchased the sports package through our cable provider. I think he know everything there is to know about the players. He knows there stats by memory. I jokingly said to him that he should be a coach or at least a scout, because of all the knowledge he knows. I would like him to give our marriage that same priority.

I will continue to seek the advise of experts to help get his attention.

TEK

You misunderstand me.


Plotting and scheming has an . . . unsavory context. Granted.

On the other hand, plotting and scheming together to achieve an objective that has been derived from POJA, keeps both players on the same page and the same stage.


The best coaches in the world on this issue are found at the Harley Coaching Center. They can tell you how to help your husband's fear that he will run into a view point that will not recognize his needs as important.

I suspect that your husband does not come anywhere near in approaching your ability to verbalize. I commend your ability to reason and express your reasoning. That doesn't mean I agree with you on all of your points, and in fact disagree with several and have said so. When it comes to a disagreement, I suspect you win, hands down, because your debating skills far exceed his.

Which does not mean you are always right and he is always wrong, just the appearance of it. As one comedian used to say, "You win the debate, here's a cookie."

POJA is as much about listening and understanding as it is about winning a debate over substance. You get past the words used to get to the heart and soul of the substance when you able to truly use POJA as one of the foundation stones of a great relationship. POJA is at least as much about what your partner doesn't say as it is about what they do express. This is especially true if they do not have the verbal skills when they are a male attempting to convey thought to a highly verbal female.

Guys on average are just not nearly as good as women, on average, at expressing their emotions and needs. This gives rise the old saw that women are always right.

Are you?

Oh, and Harley's methods are based on Cognitive Behavior Therapy. All of his concepts and methods are important including Love Busters. Have you gotten around to reading and absorbing that one yet?

Larry

Larry, thanks for the compliment(I took it as a compliment). But I beg to differ on the issue that my h can't win with me in a debate. If you ever read anything that my h writes you will see that he doesn't have any problems verbalizing his thoughts. To the contrary, he usually wins in the debate. I think he is better at verbalizing his feelings than I am. He has great reasoning skills, but he doens't use them when it comes to his own stuff. Of course, we are all usually the same way.

He gets frustrated with me, because I won't whole heartedly agree with his way of handling this situation. He wants no boundaries or accountability in this situation.


I have not read Love Busters yet, but as soon as I get it I will read it. I finished SAA and have passed it on to my h. I will begin HNHN next. Or maybe I should not wait for LB to come in the mail and go out and buy it today. I will absorb it and I know I will learn from it.

Writing the paragraph above let me see that I have written mainly on my h shortcomings, but he does have some wonderful qualities and I must remember to let him know that.

Larry

Larry

You asked how does he handle me not wholeheartedly not agreeing with the way he handles our situation. Well, 2 weeks ago when I calmly brought it up he became very irrate and verbally abusive.
For right now he is handling things his way. He gets his bio son on Tues thru Thurs and OC1 on WEd & Thurs. This will continue until she gets upset with him and refuses him to see the stepson. I will not know anything about it until he shows up without the boys on the days he normally gets them. He will not discuss it with me unless I press him about it. And then he will only give me bits and pieces as I pull it out of him.

I read LB, thanks for the info. I printed it out for my h to read. This eveing I requested of him that we spend at least 30 min each day on the material from MB, until we get the home course. We are to begin that tomorrow because he was too tired this evening.

You are right, I didn't just settle for a warm body. I wanted a partner for life.


I read LB. I printed him a copy and will see if he reads it. I put some printouts in a folder so when he is ready he can read them. I did suggest that we spend at least 30 min. each day reading over some of the material until we begin the home course.

Outstanding. . .



Now I am sitting here trying to come up with words to encourage your husband to really get into the program. I guess I could use Mel's rather descriptive example on another thread that went into details of tearing clothes off.

Or I could say it will help the two of you to become partners to the benefit of both of you both short and long term.

Or I could say that my study of Harley's methods have helped me to understand more than just marriage building.

Yet I know that he will or will not take heed based on his own world view and there really isn't much I can say to help you influence him.

Well, maybe one thing. The two of you can set an example for those two boys in the way you interact with each other that is far better than the current model as I understand it.

Two stable adults who work TOGETHER to solve problems is an irresistible place of refuge for kids. They need stability and safety as they grow and mature. And those lessons will follow them all the days of their lives as an example.

Ya' think?

All the best

Larry

ITA Larry

Thank you SSO. . .

Well tek, I guess we all agree that you and the H SHOULD be on the same page with all the dealings with the kids and OW.

If H will bend enough and open his mind to the MB concepts then he will see how it can help you both become closer as you both fight for what is right for them.

It should be you two first and POJA with enthusiasim also.


I would hope that Doc H can help with this somehow.

I think you deserve it.
Keep us up to date

What you said SSO

And it will take time and a lot of patience.

Larry

Whats up Tek?