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Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
And RIF, what if my wife is in a career field that requires a TS\SCI clearance... and she doesn't have it yet?

Hi Gerkaguards,

I have been following this morning and I must say you are doing amazingly well. I wish I had had the strength to do all you are doing when it was my turn and my WW started her antics while I was deployed.

I am a Navy Officer Intel type and have been around for about 22 years in the TS/SCI world. A lot of your wife's clearance issues are unclear. If they have already completed her investigation before all this came out but it is awating adjudication, she prob will get her clearance.

If they have not, then this may affect it unless she loses OM, and "testifies" to the SSO that it is over and she is returning to her husband and expresses remorse that she made such a horrible mistake.

Once charged or investigated she will be expected to "self-report" to the SSO of what has happened. She will have to show how she has made changes to mitigate the situation. If there is a judgement or LOR, it will be reported for her, so she better race to the SSO herself to beat the report.

Bottom line, unless she ends it with OM she will lose, or not get, her clearance, point in your favor.

The biggest concern with these clearances are that people have something they are ashamed of and could be blackmailed into doing things to keep the secret private.

If they kicked out every intel person that was cheating on their spouse they would kick out about half the community I am sorry to say. It is why the divorce rate in the intel community is so very high.

SWW

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When you guys talk about exposing to the OM's parents, how the heck do you find out who they are?


Only "legal" way that I can think of is to hire a PI...

Even if you knew someone in personnel at Ft. Sill and could get a peak at OM's DD Form 93, it would be illegal to use the information... whistle

I think that your exposure to the C-of-C and OM's W will end the A... if you could find the OM's parents, and/or OM's W's parents, that would be a bonus, but I don't think it's critical in your situation.

Semper Fi,

RIF


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Multiple A's that ended '90

Rebuilding In Faith since then...

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Originally Posted by sickwithworry
If they kicked out every intel person that was cheating on their spouse they would kick out about half the community I am sorry to say. It is why the divorce rate in the intel community is so very high.

SWW

The military psychologist I spoke to actually referenced this. He said that people with trust issues usually gravitate towards intelligence fields, and people with trust issues are far more likely to have affairs.

I think the fact that this is hitting both of them before they've even completed their initial training isn't going to be looked upon favorably. She doesn't have her clearance yet.

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I don't know, the more I think about it, the less sense it makes. Military stay at home wives are very well taken care of in the event of divorce. They get a huge chunk of their husband's paycheck, child support, a piece of his retirement, etc. But I suppose there's also the "what would mom and dad think" factor.


Even though she may be well cared for, she surely would not be as well off financially as she is right now, nor will her children, who will have to go into daycare so she can get a job.

I would bet that she wants to save her M, and that she is afraid her H will not want to if she helps end his career.


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Since I'm such a nice guy, I'll walk you through the process of finding his parents.

1) First, go to Intellius.com. Type in his name and where he lives. Let's say his name is John Schmidt and he lives in Missouri (I just made this up). This is what the FREE search would come back with. You can then find the names of his relatives.

Intellius Search

2) If you need to go further because you don't know where he's from, just click on the "View Details" button and it will bring you to a pay page.

3) A "People Search Report" costs only $0.95 and gives you: Full Name, Address, Age & DOB, Phone Number, Relatives, Address, History, Avg. Income, & Home Value. See the sample below:

People Search Report

4) A "24 Hour Pass" for $14.95 will give you that access to anyone for 24 hours, including his relatives.

5) A "Background Report" for $39.95 will give you everything in the "People Search Report" plus Criminal Check, Lawsuits, Bankrupcies, Judgments, Marriages, Divorces, Liens, Aliases, Death Records, and Neighbors. Example below:

Background Report


Jim

BS - 32 (me)
FWW - 33
Married 8/31/03
No kids (but 3 cats)
D-Days - 8/25/06 (EA), 11/3/06 (PA)
NC agreed to - 11/8/06
NC broken - 11/28/06, 12/16/06, 1/18/07, 1/26/07, 1/27/07
Status - In Recovery
Jim's Story
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Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
If they kicked out every intel person that was cheating on their spouse they would kick out about half the community I am sorry to say. It is why the divorce rate in the intel community is so very high.

SWW

The military psychologist I spoke to actually referenced this. He said that people with trust issues usually gravitate towards intelligence fields, and people with trust issues are far more likely to have affairs.

I think the fact that this is hitting both of them before they've even completed their initial training isn't going to be looked upon favorably. She doesn't have her clearance yet.

If she is still in training she is in a lot of trouble, clearance wise. The only hope she has for keeping her clearance is to break it off with the OM, and go do a self-report to the SSO (Special Security Officer) and tell them the truth about everything.

Then she will have to demonstrate her remorse and show what actions she is taking to fix the problem. The only satisfactory action for someone in a training status is to patch things up with her Husband.

If she had had her clearance for some time it would be different, but if I were the SSO i would pull her clearance or recommend dissaproval. It's too early in the game for these types of shenanigans, and most SSO's prob aren't going to risk a judgement call and being wrong on a newbie like your WW.

I think an additional reson D is so high in the Intel world is that we can't talk about substantive issues about our jobs to our spouses that aren't cleared. So people seek out others in the community to talk to and, then, well you know...

If she continues in this field, she is going to have a lot of unaccounted for time and access to sytems that you will never be given access to. Not saying that's a deal breaker by any stretch (I and many I know had the same type of constraints and did not have an A) but it is something to be aware of and consider.

But these are really ancillary issues compared to the exposing, Plan A advice you are getting. This involves your WW, over whom you currently have little to no influence. Be ready for the fury over exposure like people have been telling you; it's coming brother. But, like everyone has been saying, brush it off like water off a ducks back. Stay mission focused in your current job as best you can, this other stuff will all sort itself out. Everything is going to be alright.


SWW

Last edited by sickwithworry; 04/20/10 11:35 AM.
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The military psychologist I spoke to actually referenced this. He said that people with trust issues usually gravitate towards intelligence fields, and people with trust issues are far more likely to have affairs.

That is interesting.

I know two people who are in the intelligence field. And both of them are serial cheaters.

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I found him, had to look him up in his previous state, it's not up to date with his newest address. I know his father has the same name as him. But Intellius doesn't seem to give email addresses or anything does it? Sending an actual letter from Afghanistan doesn't seem very timely.

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Good work Gerka. Like the name change.

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Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
I found him, had to look him up in his previous state, it's not up to date with his newest address. I know his father has the same name as him. But Intellius doesn't seem to give email addresses or anything does it? Sending an actual letter from Afghanistan doesn't seem very timely.

Why not write it, sign it, scan it, send it PDF to a friend and have them overnite it to them?

SWW

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Have you tried Pipl.com ?

Pipl.com


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Originally Posted by sickwithworry
If she is still in training she is in a lot of trouble, clearance wise. The only hope she has for keeping her clearance is to break it off with the OM, and go do a self-report to the SSO (Special Security Officer) and tell them the truth about everything.

Then she will have to demonstrate her remorse and show what actions she is taking to fix the problem. The only satisfactory action for someone in a training status is to patch things up with her Husband.

She doesn't even START training for another 2 months. Her class date was that far out.

What you say about the only way for her to make it right is to patch things up with her husband.... That doesn't leave me in a very good place. Who wants someone to be forced to be with them?

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Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
If she is still in training she is in a lot of trouble, clearance wise. The only hope she has for keeping her clearance is to break it off with the OM, and go do a self-report to the SSO (Special Security Officer) and tell them the truth about everything.

Then she will have to demonstrate her remorse and show what actions she is taking to fix the problem. The only satisfactory action for someone in a training status is to patch things up with her Husband.

She doesn't even START training for another 2 months. Her class date was that far out.

What you say about the only way for her to make it right is to patch things up with her husband.... That doesn't leave me in a very good place. Who wants someone to be forced to be with them?

That may be why she stays with you now, but it doesn't mean it is the reason she is with you in 3 years when she may be in love with you again. She doesn't want to be with you right now. Duh. You know that. Let's see if she wants to be with you 6 months after OM is out of the picture. Don't let it bruise your ego. Instead, feel good about how you were there fighting for her in bad times. You weren't at home to meet her ENs. Someone else was. She wasn't properly enforcing boundaries to protect her marriage. It happens all the time. That in no way is a reflection of you, but rather a reflection of her poor choices lately. Time can heal all wounds.

How about calling OM's parents or having a friend back home call them, tell them what is going on, and then ask for their email to send them the proof or just have the friend mail it. Remember, where there is a will, there is a way.

Edit: And yes, intellius does have an email search, although it was unable to pull up my email address.

Last edited by jmwc95; 04/20/10 12:00 PM.

Jim

BS - 32 (me)
FWW - 33
Married 8/31/03
No kids (but 3 cats)
D-Days - 8/25/06 (EA), 11/3/06 (PA)
NC agreed to - 11/8/06
NC broken - 11/28/06, 12/16/06, 1/18/07, 1/26/07, 1/27/07
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That doesn't leave me in a very good place. Who wants someone to be forced to be with them?


Hey Gurka,

One step at a time! Remember, you're just at step 1. End the Affair...

You are in an EXCELLENT place! I was just looking at the date that you became a member here... yep, 3 days ago!

You've already exposed the A to the key people that have real power to separate OM and your W (your C-of-C) and OM's W.

The A WILL end... trust us on this. Your W is going to spew venom at you for a while, but eventually, she will come back to her senses.

Don't focus on "what it will be like when she is forced to be with you in order to 'save' her military career" You aren't at that step now, so don't worry about it.

Semper Fi,

RIF


Me, BS

Her, Forgiven

Married Dec 86

Multiple A's that ended '90

Rebuilding In Faith since then...

Currently deployed to Iraq, but TEXAS is Home!
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Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Originally Posted by sickwithworry
If she is still in training she is in a lot of trouble, clearance wise. The only hope she has for keeping her clearance is to break it off with the OM, and go do a self-report to the SSO (Special Security Officer) and tell them the truth about everything.

Then she will have to demonstrate her remorse and show what actions she is taking to fix the problem. The only satisfactory action for someone in a training status is to patch things up with her Husband.

She doesn't even START training for another 2 months. Her class date was that far out.

What you say about the only way for her to make it right is to patch things up with her husband.... That doesn't leave me in a very good place. Who wants someone to be forced to be with them?

Because that is the most responsible way to demonstrate that she is once again trustworthy. You will read a lot of posts on here where that unfortunately is usually the position of a BS for awhile. Your WW is not going to all of a sudden fall back in love with you.

You will read this in Surviving an Affair where the WS reluctantly returns to the BS because he/she is out of options. Simple as that, then you start to deposit love units in the love bank to rebuild your marriage.

Forget the clearance thing for now, it is not as important as saving your marrige and you are doing all the right things. You asked the question about it so i though i could clear it up a bit, but best now to press forward with your plan.

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I'll look into reaching his parents more tomorrow. I'm pretty tired now.

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Also, will they each have a right to legal counsel during the investigation? As in a civilian criminal case, where the suspect can just shut up and not answer any questions at all. Can they just not talk at all?

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Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Also, will they each have a right to legal counsel during the investigation? As in a civilian criminal case, where the suspect can just shut up and not answer any questions at all. Can they just not talk at all?

Is it not 0240 there? Shouldn't you be asleep if not on watch?

Old Sea Daddy speaking.

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Originally Posted by sickwithworry
Originally Posted by Gerkaguards
Also, will they each have a right to legal counsel during the investigation? As in a civilian criminal case, where the suspect can just shut up and not answer any questions at all. Can they just not talk at all?

Is it not 0240 there? Shouldn't you be asleep if not on watch?

Old Sea Daddy speaking.

SWW

On watch? Heh. It's 2145 here.

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Also, will they each have a right to legal counsel during the investigation? As in a civilian criminal case, where the suspect can just shut up and not answer any questions at all. Can they just not talk at all?


Yep, they will have the same rights as a civilian... The FIRST thing that the investigating officer will do is have them sign a DA Form 3881 (RIGHTS WARNING PROCEDURE/WAIVER CERTIFICATE).

Here' the text from the actual form:
Quote
The investigator whose name appears below told me that he/she is with the United States Army
suspected/accused:
Before he/she asked me any questions about the offense(s), however, he/she made it clear to me that I have the following rights:
1. I do not have to answer any question or say anything.

2. Anything I say or do can be used as evidence against me in a criminal trial.

3. (For personnel subject to the UCMJ, I have the right to talk privately to a lawyer before, during, and after questioning and to have a lawyer present with me during questioning. This lawyer can be a civilian lawyer I arrange for at no expense to the Government or a military lawyer detailed for me at no expense to me, or both.
or

(For civilians not subject to the UCMJ) I have the right to talk privately to a lawyer before, during, and after questioning and to have a lawyer present with me during questioning. I understand that this lawyer can be one that I arrange for at my own expense, or if I cannot afford a lawyer and want one, a lawyer will be appointed for me before any questioning begins.

4. If I am now willing to discuss the offense(s) under investigation, with or without a lawyer present, I have a right to stop answering questions at any time, or
speak privately with a lawyer before answering further, even if I sign the waiver below.


None of the soliders that I investigated ever refused to make a statement, and none of them requested a lawyer before or after talking with me during the investigation.

Remember, they will both be accused of adultery or violation of a lawful order... if they clam up and don't say anything, then the investigating officer is pretty much left with making his/her recommendation to the Commander based solely on the facts that he was given at the start of the investigation...

If OM has more time in the military, he may believe that he knows how to "beat" this and most likely will share his ideas with your W... a good investigator will see through this.

Also, remember this, most soldiers get in trouble for lying on a sworn statement during the investigation... not for adultery.

Semper Fi,

RIF

PS - Hey Old Sea Daddy, it's 2034 here in Iraq...


Me, BS

Her, Forgiven

Married Dec 86

Multiple A's that ended '90

Rebuilding In Faith since then...

Currently deployed to Iraq, but TEXAS is Home!
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