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BT,

Please listen to these posters. If you are uncomfortable with exposure until you have more proof then get your butt to snooping and get your proof.

I myself don't relly think you even need more proof because as others have pointed out she is already at least "emotionally" attached to this OM (and my guess is it more already too).

And it doesn't matter that "she has no one to talk to", heck you are justifying it for her she doesn't even have to do it herself. She can make some FEMALE freinds to talk to, opposite sex friends are not good for a good marriage anyway.

And what harm will come out of it anyway, big deal if she is mad, she is already mad at you and has said she is done and all the above.

And DO NOT let them know in advance that you plan on exposing and you should definitely talk to the OMW because i would pretty much bet that she has no idea they are "getting a divorce".

Please please please DO SOMETHING. Do not just stand there, the sooner the better.......

Trust me these people know what they are talking about.

BTinTrouble #2377098 05/21/10 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
@ StillCrazy - thank you so much for that recommendation.

It is something I have been toying with.

Ok, I still dont know of a PA, and not much evidence (to me) says there IS one. I read in Neaks thread "I realized I didnt need the proof, I just needed to know."

Well, I dont know. I know I wont need enough proof for a court, but I really dont know yet about a PA.

But I am going to fight for our marraige.

I fear starting my fight, and confirming any thought that I am the controlling domineering husband that never let her do anything, that she has described me as.

In reality, she has basically aquiesced to anything I wanted without complaining since we have been married. On my part, I didnt really pay attention enough to note the signs that she wasnt happy with decisions, and I didnt seek POJA. I didnt even know what POJA was. So now she is at a point where she says "I dont need to do what you want, I can make myself happy," total 180. I think the 180 came because she thinks it will be easier to just give up on us, blame me, and not have to take responsibility for her side of the fence.

I want to fight, for her, us, and our son, but in a way that allows her to come back.

I dont know what to do.

My previous post includes the beginnings of a "plan." How do they look for now?

It is very hard to find time on here when I am watchign the kid so she can go out for the day with OM.

Here are my balls.

Man I have messed so much up...

Please read my previous post to you and heed the advice you are receiving. Right here you said it yourself, you are home watching your son while she is out with the POSOM.

Grow them back RIGHT NOW.........

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Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
BT-





Just my thought, likely not MB supported, but if you find nothing because you just did not get anything on the tape, you could send a letter, just not an exposure letter, like you mentioned in your afternoon post today.


I also wanted to add that I personally think men and women can be friendly. I think they can be friends. I know, not MB. But I do NOT think those relationships should EVER be outside of the M relationship. I do not think extended periods of time meeting to talk is healthy when it does not involve you as well (common shared events). I do think those boundaries can easily get blurred and it can easily end up in an EA or a PA. So pay attention to the issue and do take some action.

LorG, I would advise that you read the information on the site, order the books and read the threads of people who have been through what BT is going through. You are not doing him any good by dispensing your opinion on a site that offers PROVEN methods for breaking up affairs and restoring Marriages in the wreckage left behind. Everything that he has done so far is enabling his WW to get more firmly entrenched in her A and believe me, there is no doubt that this is an A. Your advice is not helping him in this life destroying situation.

God's Blessings,

Say






Me, BW-57
FWH 54
4 kids and 4 grandbabies between us
In recovery since D-day, May 28,2007
FWH never onboard the MB boat but still clinging to the side.
One day at a time by God's grace.
saynomore #2377197 05/21/10 09:42 AM
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I agree with Say.

To the OP, please note LorG's registration date. For some reason he or she is posting advice as a newbie. You would be better off listening and implementing the advice of the veterans here.

To LorG-- what's your story?


Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage
*********************
“In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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You are right, I am a newbie. I have read a LOT on MB and affairs. I have completed the paid online course for MB.

I don't believe everything is a square peg that fits into a square hole.

I think MB can work. I think and have read that it does work. But I know there are several veterans that it did not work for and they are divorced. I think it is narrow-minded to think that there is only one way to achieve a goal.

MB is a tool. A system. A very good plan. But it is not 100% fool proof and it doesn't work exactly the same for everyone the same way.

We all have to live with ourselves and the decisions we make. Our own regrets. Each of us will go on with our lives and BT will be left with whatever course of action he chooses based on the advice on this forum. It is his marriage. His decisions.

Mine is but one voice. It is nothing more than my opinion. Take it or leave it. I also do not have a problem with anyone stating you disagree with mine.

If he feels like he needs more information, then he should go get it, fast, and make a decision.

If she is having a PA, then she is already having a PA and when he finishes the VAR in 1/2 weeks he can explode it.

If she is having an EA, he might feel better knowing what it is like before he throws accusations around. No one likes to be accused of something they are not doing. Especially if it is shared with others. And that does not build trust or communication and may not improve his chances of saving his marriage.

I think he should take action. Now. Pick something. Call the OM wife. Today. Buy the VARs. Today. Do it now. Whatever it is.

But BT is sharing his thoughts, concerns, fears and is asking for advice. I just wanted to share my thoughts. I could be wrong. I might be right. I don't know. Everything I shared is based solely on what I have read in his thread. I don't know what she would say, just what he says she says.

BT - If you would prefer that I don't post, please just let me know. I feel for you and I will keep watching your thread, as I have Gerkaguards thread, because I very much want for you to save a marriage you have clearly stated you mistreated, but now realize how much you cherish. I am ok if you want me to step aside.

Good luck.

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Just a reminder to help this poster learn Marriage Builders concepts. If you can help him in that regard, feel free to post. If not, please refrain from posting. Please take the time to familarize yourself with our mission statement at the top of each page which states "please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders� concepts."


Email me with any questions. Thank you, Revera


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Revera #2377474 05/21/10 03:06 PM
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**edit***

Last edited by Revera; 05/21/10 07:12 PM. Reason: TOS
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Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
**edit**

LorG

Do you have personal experience with marital infidelity as either a wayward spouse or a betrayed spouse? Your signature does not indicate it.

These concepts like exposure are not "attack level" tactics though to the newly initiated they might seem so.

en T/J

SWW

Last edited by Revera; 05/21/10 07:13 PM. Reason: removing quote
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I guess if it is important as a factor, I would share that I have enough unanswered questions and behaviors from my spouse that I suspect he has been wayward in his past. We have discussed it. He knows I think he likely has been. He will not be surprised by my statement. I have said the same to his parents and mine. He states he has not been.

So I guess when asked like that, I would say I am a betrayed spouse. My spouse would disagree. And I don't think the title of BW in necessary for me in my process, at least at this time.

I am happy to answer questions but would really like to bring the attention back to BT's thread and what he needs. If I am a distraction, I will stop posting and just follow the thread.

Last edited by LionOrGazelle; 05/21/10 10:02 PM. Reason: added last paragraph
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Ok, couple things.

I havent seen any records of texts. I dont know how to access them or if I can from Verizon online.

She has not topped 1000 hrs by a long shot, she is sitting around 100 total right now. That said, we were living with the guy so there are all those days they spent watching TV in the living room together while I played my games in sight thinking everything was neat. Not sure what I was thinking. I am not pointing this out to defend her really, just, I see a lot of "its a PA, no doubt," then a post about her 1000s of hours and countless texts, so seems like the conclusion is being drawn based on that, and I just want to clear up the "evidence" I have right now.

Anyway, VARs this weekend before I leave.

Anyone know much about them? I have been researching them and it seems mostly what I want is a microphone of good quality. I dont know if it will be a problem that there is a TV in both her room and the living room (where couch is) that are on most of the day so will that trigger the VAR? Cuz I havent seen one made that records 80 hours straight.

Any advice on those would be neat. I also plan on asking the Best Buy and Radio Shack people, and whatever electronics places I see.

The letter, at this point I am confused.

I know what an EA is. I understand MB and why its bad. However, how do I explain it to non-MB friends and family? Do "normal" people just "get" that 60 hrs a month on the phone with someone is not cool?

To be clear, I have not warned her or even really hinted at exposure. Her comment about "not telling anyone our business" was from a month ago during a conversation about what she tells people, and she was saying she doesnt tell anyone anything for that reason.

Also, I dont know OMs wife at all. She lives in SC, we are in NC, and I dont know her name or anything. I could maybe hint at it with OM at work or something. I will have to think on how to do that. OM and OMW actually both legally reside in SC, OM just comes up here and stays during work weeks. The house belongs to a freind of mine who I know from Maine. He rents one room out to OM, and for the time we were there, rented another to us. Now OM pretty much lives there because of the problems he is having at home. I dont doubt the OM's divorce. He might be lying to everyone at work I guess, but he isnt like, telling everyone, and I am hearing about it from people that I THINK he thinks are friends but who are also my friends now.

Its weird because I want to be angry at OM, and maybe there is something wrong with me NOT being angry, but I consider it. He was living in a place, and wanted to watch TV. His wife and him arent getting along. He hangs out at his rent place where a nice cheerful lady also likes to watch TV, so they hang out and chat. They become friends, but to him its fine because they are "just" friends. He even asks me behind Ws back if its ok with me that they be friends, this was about 2 or 3 months ago, a while, before I was really awake to the dire situation I had put my marraige in.

At that point, I told him no, I dont have problems with them being friends, and I think that if W and I were good, I still wouldnt mind OM being OUR friend. He is a nice, well mannered guy who is fun to be around.

The only problem I have with OM is that W chooses to spend time with him and NOT me. If it was with US (me and OM and our son) as a family with OM tagging along, and then other time with me or me and our son, alone, than I dont think I would have a problem.

Is that wrong?

Today, MC. He told us (mostly her) that her idea that "I cant be nice to H because he takes it wrong and thinks we will be together" is bologna and that she shouldnt let me control her behavior like that. That if I am nice, she should be able to just be nice back, it doesnt help anyone, least of all her happiness, to be spiteful in response to nice gestures. He went on with the idea that "you can still be nice, even hold hands, kiss or even have sex, you are still married and that wouldnt have to change your decision. Its your decision, nothing he or you do HAS to change that." But that she also shouldnt close her mind to options since that is restraining herself from what life offers, which is also not healthy.

She is mad at him because he has said something like this at every session. I asked her why she looked upset as we left. She was reluctant at first but I was gentle and persistant and she told me she doesnt like him saying that (about holding hands and sex etc) and that he has "one more chance." If he says it again next week she doesnt want to see him again.

I told her that it isnt really a chance if she doesnt let him know her boundaries. He cant avoid a line if she doesnt draw him one. It pained me to point this out because its just another example of what she did with us, as well as in the past with some of her previous friends. She stays mad but "gives" and says nothing, until she is just done. Sad.

Anyway, she disagreed about telling him, but I plan to bring it up again. Despite the "disagreement," the conversation ended very respectfully and well. I wasnt lecturing her or pushing her. She talked for a while, asked what I thought, I responded in 2 short sentances and shut up about it. She doesnt need me to tell her what to think.

MC also talked about Boundaries and how hers are rigid and inflexible which isnt healthy, but before they were totally porous and how that is also not healthy. That we both need boundaries where we dont allow others to hurt us, but that we can choose to interact with anyone, not just eachother, constructively in any way we choose.

Last night we were talking and she said she thought it was "innapropriate" for me to give her a massage since I might "get the wrong idea." I disagreed with her, told her I "get the wrong idea" every time I see her, if she must know. Anyway, tonight, she asked for a massage.

Not sure what that means, but it made me happy to see her peaceful. I can totally get when I allow myself to be forced to do something I dont like and I let it happen, how that is weak and stupid to do. I dont think this is like that. I choose to give her a massage. It is something I recently learned to do, and it makes me happy. In fact, nearly all the things she asks me to do genuinely make me happy when I do them for her. I have never felt like I was "sacrificing" for her, the rare times she has asked me for something. Only when I was in my video game fog and was being selfish would I get upset. I guess its a seeing her smile makes me happy, so even things I mildly dislike can become enjoyable when I see her smile. I wouldnt watch TV alone, its boring and I hate commercials, but when she does it and I am with her, the commercials are fun, we talk, and the show is interesting because we share what we think about it. So there, I dont like TV, and wont watch it alone, but with her, its enjoyable.

Last edited by BTinTrouble; 05/21/10 11:01 PM.

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BTinTrouble #2377692 05/21/10 11:04 PM
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LorG, I personally dont have any problems with you posting. I also dont mind people disagreeing with you.

However, if there are rules for this board, we should abide by those.

Other than that, I welcome as many perspectives as I can get. Each and everyone is a filter through which I pass my thoughts and oftentimes something pans out that I hadnt realized.

Thank you all for this.

SWW, saynomore, Still_Crazy and Mark and all you others who check on me, thank you so much.

Dont let my denseness stop you from 2x4's. I'm learning to be a big boy and I can take them just fine.

This post skipped it to page 10, so be aware my "main" reply is at the bottom of page 9. Love to hear any thoughts or comments on it.

Last edited by BTinTrouble; 05/21/10 11:05 PM.

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BTinTrouble #2377693 05/21/10 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Ok, couple things.

I havent seen any records of texts. I dont know how to access them or if I can from Verizon online.

She has not topped 1000 hrs by a long shot, she is sitting around 100 total right now.

Here it is sir, your own words i am afraid:
May 4rd to today:
901 mins / 15hrs with OM
24 mins with her mom
129 mins with everyone else

Apr 4rd to May 3rd:
3534 mins / 58.9hrs with OM


Mar 4th to Apr 3rd:
1133 mins / 18.8 hrs with OM
61 mins with her Mom
149 with me


Feb 4th to Mar 3rd:
6 mins with OM (we lived in same place as him through this month)
140 mins with me

I am not sure what to say you are suffering from paralysis by analysis.

SWW

Last edited by sickwithworry; 05/21/10 11:11 PM.
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Oh sorry,

She mostly goes to the beach or to a meadow or a drive or errands or something. She specifically says she doesnt want me to come wiht. We used to walk on the beach together all the time, especially when we still lived in CA. Now I am not wanted during this time

You are right. It is only in the hundred hours plus, not thousands, my bad.

BT...

SWW

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Have you talked to the OM's wife?

SWW

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No, not with OMs wife, I dont know how to contact her, dont know her name, or address or anything. She lives somewhere in SC.

SWW - I can see that you are convinced its a PA. I can appreciate that you truly want to help me and that you are freely sharing your thoughts even if they get rejected. I am truly thankful for this.

That said, I dont know if it makes you want to kick me in the face for my obstinance or what, but I am not convinced its a PA.

I dont know what to say. I know I will eat it if the VAR catches some craziness somehow, and I will come here and tell you and say you were right, but at this point, I just dont think so.

You are definately throwing it at me and its making me think, but I turn it over, I check the times she has been "out" and see phone calls to people, OM sometimes, other people other times, and I think about how she acts and the things she says and the way OM acts and the things he says, and I just dont see a PA.

Maybe I am blind.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2377700 05/21/10 11:55 PM
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VAR suggestions:

Olympus DS-30 Digital Voice Recorder
Expensive at $250 bucks. Online at Amazon.
Up to 68 hours of recording time; 30-hour battery life, optional AC adapter (if that could even be utilized and maybe so if not under the couch), and extension microphone optional.

Sony ICDP620 Digital Voice Recorder PC Compatible via USB
Just under $200 bucks. Also online at Amazon.
Supports up to 260 hours of recording time and uses two AAA batteries.

Olympus DS-40 Digital Voice Recorder
$150 bucks, again, at Amazon.
Up to 136 hours of recording time; 30-hour battery life.

I have not used any of them but they are out there. Now you can't drag your feet. Go buy two. smile

I logged onto my Verizon account. I can see every call, time, phone# and length. On the data side, I can see every date, time, Text # to/from, # to/from, sent/received. Of course, can't see content.

There are computer programs you can buy and install onto a cell phone you own (abiding by laws) that will track what you are looking for (records calls and/or sms texts and/or GPS locations dependign upon what you buy). Try sites like Webwatcher Mobile Spy Smartphone Monitoring or Flexispy (assuming she has the right phone). If she doesn't...it would not be out of the oridinary for a 15th month old to drop her incompatabile cell phone in the toilet (kids like toilets) thus requiring her to get a new "compatable" one.

It is just the truth you are after. I would not be angry if HBS used any tools on me. When we installed "nanny cams" our nannies all said they did not care - they had nothing to hide.

No more excuses.

Added - OM wife. Facebook, friend OM, view OMs friends. View friends of OMs friends. Chat with OM until you know her 1st name. Last name you should already know. Then match that to a friend. Use LinkedIn. Same searches. Try Zabasearch (free & somewhat helpful). Filter thru names by estimated DOB (ask OM casually about OM wife to gather data such as did he marry older or younger and by how much and did he thing that had anything to do with hw their marriage turned out, or how long did they live in...(then say) "what city did you say you lived in SC again"? How did they pick there to live...blah blah. People will talk when you show an interest. Then use that to find her. She is an important tool for you so invest in finding out who she is.


Last edited by LionOrGazelle; 05/22/10 12:12 AM.
BTinTrouble #2377702 05/22/10 12:02 AM
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Forgot to add. Her allowing you to give her a massage. IMO - not something someone who is "feeling divorced" would likely do. Getting a massage is hardly something you want from someone you want nothing to do with.

I like your reply told her I "get the wrong idea" every time I see her. Honest. Intimate. Flattering. Powerful. Yet you verbally respected her boundary. I liked the balance. And you gave her a massage. And she accepted it. And...she ASKED for it.

It is a good thing.

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Thats the thing. I honestly dont think there is a PA, and that this EA is kinda being blown up because she doesnt HAVE anyone else to talk to. She doesnt feel she can talk to me, because she feels she needs to protect herself from me.
but
she cant talk to her dad (no phone)
not really her mom (she knows her mom is nuts but loves her anyway)
not her old friends because they all have kids and are really busy and most are 3 hours behind us
and she doesnt have new friends that are really GOOD friends since she only has maybe 1-2 years with any of them (moving in the military)

It MIGHT be a PA or a deep EA, but so much says that it very well might NOT be.

So I dont know, I will VAR, thanks for the info, I wrote them down and will see if the stores have any of those. I cant do online because I only have a couple days till I leave.

I think in addition, she feels hurt and tired of what we had going, she doesnt want it back. Thats fine, I agree. We BOTH dont want it back, but she doesnt trust that it could be better.

She is not dumb, but she doesnt think the way I do. I love talking to her so much because of that. Such a different perspective so alien to the way I analyse and the world. I miss her terribly.

I am hoping that the "expose" letter can bring her friends and family to support her. If they think she should leave me, fine, if they think she shouldnt, also fine. As long as she gets to talk to someone about it, instead of sitting in her own mind, I think she will be better off no matter what happens.

I know how confused I have been, and I have been talking to,
well...

2 psychologist (1 is a current coworker I bounce ideas off of, the other for a few sessions about 4 months ago)
1 therapist (coworker from the place we moved from)
1 really good friend who mostly listens
this entire board with wonderful people like Mark, Mel, and you guys recently that jumped in on teh Affair board

I have gotten lots of instant feedback and had many 2x4's telling me what I ahve been doing wrong. I am also very analytical in the fact that if it makes sense to me that its the "right" way to do something, its done, I will do it.

Same reason I cant say its a PA... I cant get it to add up enough for me.

Maybe I am hoping at shadows and the devil will get the last laugh....

Last edited by BTinTrouble; 05/22/10 12:25 AM.

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BTinTrouble #2377707 05/22/10 12:23 AM
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About facebook...

yeah, OM is 50 something. He types with his pointers, hates computers, has no facebook or email outside the mandatory USMC work email we have to use. He complains incesantly about them at work, and even W has told me how she mentioned to him that he should get facebook and he said "not likely."

He is also not on my Ws facebook, so... yeah.

Thankful for technology impaired people for probably the ONLY time in my life....


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BTinTrouble #2377709 05/22/10 12:36 AM
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Amazon. Order RIGHT NOW. Overnight shipping. Received by Monday May 24th.

If that is not fast enough - do you have anyone that you trust that could come to the house and swap out a couple of VARs while you are gone so you can get your recording time you need?

Other options I have seen at pimall.com. Can't speak to their quality but good place for info.

If Monday is soon enough, then go order at Amazon now.

Good luck and good night.

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