I think she's noticing, and probably noticing even more that I'm not obviously seeking acknowledgement. As I mentioned, the wish for acknowledgement comes and goes.


Good idea there. If you think about it, it's kind of how we all start out when dating but forget over time.



I've seen that before, but cannot find it now...care to share a link if you run across it again?


That's what I used to do but, like others, kind of put on the back burner as life goes on. But, I unconsciously started doing that again because, well, the feelings are genuine and come back once you realize that something is in jeopardy. I agree with your caveat and think that is an important point, thanks for reminding me of how easy something can be.

Got a question for you guys, wondering if I�m overthinking things or not. As you may have guessed, I�m having doubts that my W was having an EA as, recently, I�m just not getting that vibe or gut feeling and have seen no indication that says otherwise. But I don�t want to be na�ve so it kind of turns into a second guessing thing.

So we�ve been getting along very well (except for her not meeting my EN�s but, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play) but I�m hanging in there and making $LB deposits like a son of a gun. Just playing the waiting game, I guess.

So tonight she says her co-worker gave her two tickets to a fundraiser that her job is doing on Sunday afternoon. Just FYI, she technically works for non-profit organization #1 which receives a Federal grant by swapping employees with non-profit organization #2. So she works at organization #2 but is employed by #1, make sense?

Organization #2 is doing the fundraiser, a shrimp dinner or something like that with outdoor games for the kids�space jump, face painting, that sort of thing. Suspected OM works for #2.

She asks if I will go with her, with the kids, to this thing on Sunday. Now, one of her big EN�s is RC, a need that I haven�t been that good with in the past. So it�s an opportunity, and the kids will have good time. Trouble is, I�m pretty sure suspect OM would be there, too.

No way in hell would I let her go alone, so I�m going, but have no desire at all to see this suspect-OM. But, it�s kind of a job-thing so she sort of needs to go. Maybe it�ll rain, but I doubt I�ll get that lucky.

Even if this guy isn�t an OM, it�s in my head now and I cannot unthink it. Maybe he was a potential OM, maybe nothing came of it, I don�t know and cannot prove one way or the other.

I guess I don�t have any real question, I�m going and have no plans on getting arrested or doing anything stupid, but wonder if I could get some thoughts from you guys? I want to say �No, we�re not going because of the suspect-OM�, but I feel like it�d be a LB to say that when I have no real proof and don�t feel like exposing my snooping�

Maybe a 2x4 is in order? I don�t know, someone tell me what they think, please.

Northwood, just a couple of thoughts for you from the WW standpoint:

1. The fact that she invited you is a pretty good indication that if she was in an EA, it's dead or dying. Otherwise, she would have discouraged you from going. Your past reluctance to do RC with her would have been an easy play for her -- i.e. "honey, I know you don't like this sort of thing. I have to go and it looks like fun for the kids, but I really want you to stay home and relax."

2. I have had men hit on me in the past, including the mentor of my Education for Ministry class, and I DID NOT SEE IT. My H could tell though -- he would say "that guy is so after you" and I would argue with him. In retrospect, H was right.

My point is that you should trust your gut with the OM but don't assume your W is consciously aware of the situation. If she is depressed, the idea that OM might actually be attracted to her may seem unbelievable. The flip side of that is that if OM is attracted to her and she is gravitating, consciously or unconsciously towards that attraction, she may find it hard to resist OM because he makes her feel better and any relief from the desolate internal landscape is irresistible. Think of that moment when you have been in terrible pain, and the codeine kicks in -- you aren't worried that you are going to become a codeine addict. You are just happy the pain has stopped. That's exactly what it is like.

3. This could be an opportunity for you to give her some relief from her pain. I don't have a feel for what the dynamic is between you, but if OM is on the table for discussion at all, take the tack of "the man has excellent taste - of course he is attracted to my adorable wife. But he can't have her because I got lucky and I know it." Compliment her on what she wears to the event, tell her you are proud to show up with her, hold her hand and be solicitous, but not hovering, during the event. If she talks to OM, join the conversation and compliment your W in front of him -- a reference to what a fantastic mother she is is always well received and sends a nice reminder to OM that she has a family. Let her overhear you saying nice things about her to others (this is one of my favorite esteem builders with my teenagers -- when they think I don't know they are listening, I praise them to whoever I am talking to.)

CLAIM HER. There is no better aphrodisiac.

Our dynamic is actually quite nice. I've only mentioned the word affair to her twice since this mess started:

1. Once we were talking about "us" and I just asked, are you having an affair? She shook her head 'no', but I took it with a grain of salt as, at the time, her behavior was waayyyy out there and, even though I live in the South, I'm not a dumba**.

2. A few hours later that day, I asked her about the time she gave "some guy" (suspect OM) a ride to work from the car dealer where he was getting his car fixed. I, of course, new his first and last name, but wanted to see if she'd give the name--she did. I told her that I was not comfortable with that, at all, and she read between the lines very well. She's not a dumba**, either.

It was about a week later that I started seeing a change, more clarity from her so I can only guess at what caused the change. In that same period, I know that two of her friends asked if she was cheating, so perhaps it hit a nerve.

Since then, every day is better than before and since I went through this back in 2002 (or so), I kind of know what to look for. But God, what if the wool is being thrown over my eyes? That's the one thing I cannot shake and need closure on. With no evidence to the contrary, I'm really really wanting to say that nothing is going on now.

Over the last two weeks, she has been a little more disgruntled with her job and has been looking and applying for positions elsewhere. Coincidence? I don't know.

I think going to this shin-dig will actually be a good thing in that I can get a better feel for if this OM is, was, or never was an OM. Too, I can find out if he's married--I think he is, but you know how internet information is not always accurate.

Above all, I think seeing how they interact will be the key.

I mentioned this morning that the news predicted rain for Sunday. She laughed, said she kind of hoped it did because she didn't really want to go...who, afterall, really likes going to company dinners. But it was her boss that gave her the two tickets, so it's an obligation of sorts.

Since we'll have our two kids there, I'm going to position it so that, if we meet, I'm suddenly unable to shake his hand. While I can do the bs small talk thing quite well, just suspecting that he is an OM is going to throw me off. Being even vaguely cordial will be an immense challenge for me, but, if he's innocent, I certainly don't want to appear to be an a-hole. A fine line there, but I think I'll get the picture pretty quickly.

Plus, having two kids there will also prevent her from being alone with him, sometimes having a toddler having a fit and yelling for his mommy isn't a bad thing! If we are in conversation with suspect-OM, I'll keep it brief and just excuse ourselves saying that W and I need to go entertain the kids. If he's guilty, I want him to know that I know without being overly obvious, but if he's not, I don't want to look like someone with anger issues. Make sense?

Though I'd honestly rather go to the dentist, I really want to see what this POS looks like. And if I'm wrong about all of this mess, then that'd be a nice touch, too.

Resolution or peace of mind in sight?

Hey Northwood --- thinking about you this afternoon. Hope you are implementing your plan-- actually, I hope you are getting verification that you don't need a plan!

Let us know how it went.

Have you talked to your W about how she feels about your concern for her emotional welfare?

Does she mind? Has she given you her permission? I hope she knows everyone you have told, (just to be open and honest) so there will be no nasty surprises later. I hope this is so.

I know a little about medical confidentiality. I work in a public setting, with kids. I have heard dozens of times (in seperation/divorce settings) How Parent A is so worried about parent B's mental state. Of course they have had or need to be on medication and they are only telling me this for thier own "good". The saddest part is when the family member pontificates about the child, too.

And then parent B has the same concerns about parent A.
Either way, it is not important to me to know this information. Once the cat is out of the bag...it does not go back in.

I have a lot of mainstreamed kis, and kids who have been in lock up and lock down. We are carefully instructed to encourage the kids NOT to talk about their experinces, medications and such with anyone- except specialists and doctors.. It does carry a stigma that lasts.

A good frined of mine is our overworked school psychologist. This is an issue that burns her up, too. She is the one who made me aware of the seriousnes of this issue.

Also I disagree with an earlier poster (with respect). This type of information being made public can and will have detramental influence/consequences for the person.

We have had parents who were not allowed to chaperone trips, due to questions about "emotional health". I am glad we just run fingerprints/background checks now. Less hearsay.

I don't have an issue with your concern, I have an issue about making her medical history public.

Hey, do you have a family doctor? If you are so worried, have you spoke to him/her about this? (Oh yeah, that is where the questionable meds came from, right?) Or you could make a psychiatric appointment yourself and ask your questions and express your concerns.

There are people all over the internet who will tell you what you want to hear. If that is what you are looking for, great.
I am glad you are here for support.

I am glad that she is warming up to UA.

Think twice and speak once about private info. I guess I hope that she knows everyone you told, and what you told them. I know if you are following MB principles of O&H you have already done this.



Peace out.

Reading barbiecat's post I am fearful this was misunderstood. I was trying to say that going to see a psychiatrist is an excellent idea, NOT that enlisting others was a good idea.

If you have not told your W about your discussions with others about her psychiatric issues, you must do so instantly. I assumed she was privy to that fact but it appears from one of your other posts that maybe she is not.

And I do mean instantly.

When -- not if, but when -- your breach of confidence is disclosed to her by one of those people instead of by you you will have done incalculable damage to her. It makes me shivery and ill to think of it. You have the highest position of trust outside of the legally mandated confidentiality of the doctor/patient relationship.

I'm not trying to beat you up here at all -- I know your motives are good and you want her to get better and felt helpless. It is just impossible to overstate the sensitivity of psychiatric information.

You simply have to tell her exactly who you talked to and what you and they said. She's going to get blindsided by this, and the resulting sense of betrayal. shame, withdrawal and isolation will make today's depression look like a walk in the park. It will be a DJ the size of a Mack truck hitting her without notice.

I got to watch first hand, up close and personal, the magnitude of damage that this sort of information floating around, unknown to the depressed person, can do. When we put my practically perfect 17 year old daughter on suicide watch for a week, I think the school finally got that they should have been a tad more careful about who they told what. She never went back to school -- I home schooled (and I use that term very loosely) this incredibly vibrant, beautiful, intelligent, magnificent child for the second half of her senior year. She rarely spoke for months. We ended up moving our family to a different city.

I asked my H if the betrayal of my A hurt worse than what we went through with our daughter, and he laughed. For him, it's not even a close call -- what we went through with our daughter was way worse. I'm not trying to discount other's experiences on this point -- I'm trying to express to you the magnitude of the issue and the importance of how you handle this.

This isn't about your M -- it's about preserving your W's very fragile trust in the world. You must tell her. Please. Do it in front of the MC if you are concerned about her reaction (and the more concerned you are about her reaction, the more critical it is that you do it.)

You don't have to understand how important it is -- you just have to do it.

Well, that went over mildly. On the advice of the two of you, I told her about my concerns over the meds and that I told others my concerns. That I realize that she doesn't want me to "fix" her and that I was sorry for stepping over the line and breaking trust...didn't quite know what else to say, was waiting for an explosion that didn't come.

She didn't say anything for a few seconds, then said that they already thought she was crazy and it probably wasn't a surprise. Apparently, no one had mentioned that I had spoken to them but had all voiced concerns in one way or another over the past few months. She said the counselor had given her the name of a psychiatrist, but she (my W) didn't think that was the whole problem...paraphrasing here, she was saying that there were other things causing all of this and she didn't think a new pill would make it all go away. That she had been feeling like this for a while now, and reiterated that she didn't want me to "fix" anything, that me doing that peeved her off, and that she had appreciated that, over the past couple of weeks, that I hadn't been pushy. In other words, butt out, end discussion.

I don't know, it was a relatively emotionless reaction but we both tend to stew on things for a while before reacting, so there's probably a different reaction coming in the next day or so.

We didn't end up going to the dinner. It was an outdoor thing, temp in the 90's on a Sunday at 4:00. Plus it had been rainy so the humidity was awful. Around 3:00 she said she just didn't want to fool with it (for the above reasons) and that was that. I'm actually relieved, because I had been dreading meeting that guy for several days now.

So....no news on that front. I'm going, by myself, to the counselor on Tuesday to see if she has any input. W goes on Wednesday, and we are meeting for lunch on Thursday.

This weekend has been more down for me, and I think it shows. Part of it was the dinner, the rest was just the rest of this mess. As a result, conversation was a bit more strained as it was probably obvious that I wasn't there. I'd been doing good earlier, it just kind of comes and goes.

Having quality UA time is tough when neither know what to say. She doesn't know about the MB concepts per se, but gets that us not talking has had a negative impact over the past several years.

Now if I could just figure out if she wants to work on this, it would be a great step forward. I'm too scared to ask, though.

Thoughts?

Good for you! You did the right thing. There may be fall out, but that's OK -- fall out gives an opportunity for communication. Don't wait for her to react -- follow up in a day or so and ask her how she feels about your disclosures, then resist the urge to defend your actions or discount or fix her feelings which may make you uncomfortable. Sit with your discomfort. It isn't going to kill you.


Don't think of it as asking -- think of it as selling. You have a vision of what you want your M to look like -- do you seriously think her vision is all that different?

There is a world of difference between "do you want to do the hard work required to see if we can make this M work" (ummm, no -- I have a job and two small kids so I'm checking the 'no' box on more hard work on an 'if') and "hey, this is how I see us going forward -- it's going to be energizing and intimate and fun and romantic. Here's the plan -- what do you think? I'm a man so I'm clueless about all this emotional stuff and I really need you to help me with it. Come with me and let's see how cool we can make this."

If you get excited, she will. If you view it as drudgery, she will. Presentation is everything.

No, I'm certain that we want the same thing. I'm certain that I haven't always known what I wanted until now. While I know who I want that to be with, I don't think she's as sure.


That sounds like a good idea. Playing devil's advocate, I'm scared she'll say something along the lines of "well we didn't have that before, how can we know that it'll work this time?" I'll chew it over, see if I can come up with a script or something. I just need to get the energy first...only so many times you can put on the happy face, you know?

Which leads to today. When we got home, I could tell instantly that her mood was way off, she had been crying. She asked if she could take my appointment (Tuesday) with the counselor, but, of course, wouldn't say why. Only that she'd had a lousy day.

Well here's your freaking pity party, awww, you had a bad day? Or did you and the suspect OM talk or something? Are you freaking kidding me? This has been a complete nightmare for me and you're contemplating destroying our family because you're "not happy"???? Grow the hell up, get your head out of your a** and let's work on this!! Of course, I didn't say that and said she could go in my stead tomorrow, I'll take her appointment on Wednesday.

So DD goes to bed around 6 and I take DS with me to a church program that we've started going to with friends. W stayed home--I asked her if she needed a break since work was such a pain, that I would take DS with me and we'd be back later tonight. That seemed to help and her mood improved.

God, it's hard to put on my game face when the other person is so obviously down and not there.

So we get back around 8:00, put DS to bed and we laid on the bed and watched TV. Yeah, I know, quality UA time but I take what I can get. I asked her if she'd tell me about her day, she said it was just one of those days at work and that she just isn't happy with where she is in life. You guys know the script.

Needless to say, I'm pretty peeved right now but don't let it show. It's a struggle, but I did well with it and no $LB withdrawals.

Before all this hit the fan today, I did place an order with a florist to deliver flowers to her office tomorrow. Card reads "hope you have a great day, love H" That may have been an opportunity for something more Hallmark-card sounding, but it just didn't enter my mind at the time.

Wonder how she'll take it, or if she'll even mention the flowers.

So here I am, on the internet at 10:30. It's funny, she sleeps so easily it seems, while I tend to lay awake until 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning.

Wish I wasn't here, thought things were going better but I guess she just hides it.

I think I'm going to be sick.

Checked her phone, she's been calling various apartments in the area.

What do I do?

Northwood, I am so not qualified to answer your question about what to do about the apartment. Someone who knows will doubtless be along.

It may be that her calls to the apartments are because she needs to DO something -- the situation is intolerable to her and she needs to take an action, any action, even if it's wrong.

I actually said that to myself many times -- "Saddest, DO something. Even if it's wrong. Do SOMETHING."

I think you guys have waaaay too much stuff going on under the surface. Would you be able to bring it out in the open? The suspected EA, the apartments, your desire that she see a psychiatrist?

Have you talked to SteveH yet? You really should. And she should too- in fact, she should first. As I said on my thread, she may think she knows what he is going to say, but she hasn't a clue.

IMO, talking to SteveH is the absolute best decision you could make. Coaching is not at all what you think it is.

Well we were up from midnight to about 2:00 am talking about things. It's all kind of a blur, but the gist of it was this:

She isn't where she wanted to be career-wise and resents me for that, that she married because it was the next logical step and feels that she has lost herself. She wanted to travel, see the world as a part of her career, and feels that she lost that. I asked how our children fit into this dream and she admitted that she couldn't reconcile that.

She told me that yesterday morning she went and looked at apartments, but the reality of it hit so hard that she crashed..which is what I saw. I guess it's good that she had that reaction?

I talked about how I saw a divorce going--we would lose the house, probably declare bankruptcy as neither could finance our obligations separately, and we would end up in a lower-income apartment complex where the kids would lose everything--their backyard, separate rooms, possibly change of schools, etc.

I said that I didn't want to go down that road, that I've never thought of divorce as an option. I said that we are on the brink of something really great, fun and exciting and that I hoped she would join us (me and the kids) on that journey. This goes back to what saddest mentioned in a post above.

She said she was trying to convince herself to give it another shot, that she didn't want to end up like this again. I agreed, and said that I didn't want the old marriage back, either...it obviously wasn't working and I wanted something new and better.

She said "Well, what if it doesn't work out and we're back here again?" I immediately said "Well, what if it does? We've got nothing to lose and everything to gain here."

She said that she hated to show me any physical affection, because she didn't feel that way (ILYBINILWY) but felt guilty for feeling that way.

I voiced my concerns over how our oldest son (age 5) has been lately--he often refuses to give W a goodnight hug and kiss, but will give me several in a short span often while W sees it. I asked how she felt about that, that he was refusing to give her affection. She said it hurt really bad, and I said that was true for me as well.

So that's kind of how we left it. I gave the invitation, think it hit home and she's considering.

Suggestions?

Northwood, this is excellent. She's talking. That is so huge. And it sounds like you handled it beautifully.

She's grieving the life she didn't lead which, since she didn't lead it she can be certain was perfect, except oops -- the life she didn't lead doesn't include the kids so she can't really grieve it which makes it harder to move on.


The escape hatch closed. She's may feel claustrophobic and panicky. Panicky people make horrible decisions.

Open some windows for her. Plan something fun this weekend. And I mean plan it, as in you find the childcare, pick the restaurant or pack the picnic, buy her scented bath stuff and a People magazine, and take the kids away for a couple of hours before you go out after you've cleaned the kitchen or done whatever it is that would otherwise stand between her and continuing the lovely evening you created when she gets home, which should be after the kids are asleep. Touch her the same way you touch your kids when they are hurting. Don't indicate in any way, shape or form that you want SF -- you want to disconnect affection from SF for the time being.

Create hope.


Her life choices are circumscribed by your children not by your M. She can't resent them-- that's written in the Book somewhere (I am going to insist at some point that I be given the Book) so she resents you instead. She resents you because if her inability to achieve her goals is your fault it isn't her responsibility to make the changes necessary to achieve what she wants to achieve.

Do you know where she wants to be career wise? Do you know where you want to be career wise? Are you all talking about that stuff? "Someday" will in fact come and you can travel Africa together working for a non-profit or whatever floats your boat.

Create hope.


Yea, well logical or not, she's married now. She's not dead. Don't be surprised if the next thing her hear is the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech. They actually have an acronym for that here -- ILYBINILWY. That's how common it is. Don't panic.


The number of lost women in the world is startling. I wonder where they all are. Someone should commission a study.

Every mother on the planet got lost the instant she gave birth. Survival of the species depends on it.

Kidding aside, the "lost self" is an oft repeated phrase poorly defined. I know what it means to me -- out of balance and stagnant. Do you know what that phrase means to her?


She's still not dead.

You must have seen the movie "Up". I love that movie. Do what they did. Set up a bank account and put $50 in and transfer $10 a week if that's what you can afford. Then plan the "Someday" trip together. Learn how to change the oil in your car and contribute that money or whatever.

Create hope.


And .... she's still not dead.

She's stuck.

You haven't talked much about your kids, but I'm going to throw in my two cents worth. Kids the ages of yours are voracious consumers of the resources of time, talent and energy, and, in the new Book, money. Competitive Motherhood is a suburban sport. I look back at the amount of resources I spent worrying and fretting and enriching my kids with absolute dismay. Why in the world did I think it was important for my kid to read in kindergarten? It wasn't like she wasn't ever going to learn. Why did I spend money on art lessons for a FOUR YEAR OLD? It wasn't like I had some budding genius on my hands. Why did I spend all my evenings after work driving them from school to soccer practice to art? I thought I had to -- it was written in the Book somewhere.

By the third I'd learned my lesson and here is what I tell everyone I know who has small children: the ages from one to five are the "keep them alive" years. Deliver them to kindergarten breathing and you have done your job. Don't play the Competitive Motherhood game. There is no winning and it will wear you out. Pare it down.

Well yesterday afternoon after work (and before we picked up the kids) she said

W: If the offer's still there, I'd like to accept.
Me: Yeah, I can handle supper, no problem.
W: No no no, I mean I'd like to work on this [marriage], from what we talked about last night.
Me: Good! I'd be glad to!
W: But I'd like to handle [any type of physical affection] on my own terms, try not to push me because I feel guilty already.
Me: Not a problem.

So, I guess that's a good thing, right? Now if I just don't blow it...but I'm excited that something new may be beginning here.


Yep, the grass is always greener or so they say. I
think we all have those thoughts at some time or another, especially as we get older and start to sense our own mortality.


Sounds like a great idea. It's bad when you've NOT done that for so long that you have trouble thinking of ideas. Uhh!


Got that covered, it took a woman's perspective, though, as that wouldn't have occurred to me.



I think that is where she is torn, because making those changes to achieve her dreams from 15 years ago would cause tremendous upheaval in all of our lives. It's a tough place to be in mentally, I'm sure.


No, she doesn't and sees the prospects dim as the years go by. We have talked about it--goes back to me trying to fix things and being frustrated when all I hear is "I don't know". She just knows that she doesn't like her current job, but doesn't know what to do about it. I hate that she's in the position, wish I could just push a button and fix it for her, but I cannot. I do need to be more supportive of what she wants to do career-wise. That was one thing that she said I wasn't very good at in the past--I agree. To me, it was easier to just ignore it.

I kind of ended up with my job, make good money, am reasonably good at it (ha ha) and am content most of the time. I think I just look at what I have, versus where others are, and am thankful for that. I think that as long as it all balances out then I'm ok.



I didn't hear it in those words, but what sparked all this was "I don't feel like we have a connection anymore." Same thing, same shock to me.



I couldn't find the little smiley face icon of someone laughing, but I looked for it!


I'm fairly certain that I do know what she feels, but, sadly, it's just one of those things that I don't believe has a solution other than abandoning everything and hitting the road.



Yeah, our kids saw it, had a good message. We used to like to travel a lot before we had kids--dated since 1996, married in 2000, first child born 2005. We'd take crazy roadtrips (from MS to Maine, for example) with no hotel reservations, no real destination in mind, just go wherever looked interesting. Those were awesome trips, you can see so much in this country that you didn't even know was there. Kind of funny how things change, but I'd like to do that again and would bet she would, too.


We talked about this very thing last night. I think we both kind of hate that we've let being parents replace being spouses. Don't get me wrong, we wouldn't trade being parents for anything in this world, but recognize that our time together has be drastically cut.

It goes back to UA time, when to get it, how to get it when you've done without for so long (figure five years?). It feels like an uphill battle, but the alternative isn't an alternative so up we go.

So how is everything over your way, saddest? Thanks for checking in with me, it's nice to be able to get second opinions on this rollercoaster that we're all on.

Take care.

Just an update to say that we're doing well, working on the marriage and that I wanted to thank all you guys for the insight gained on this forum. I've learned so much just reading through other posts, and it helped to know that I wasn't alone or that my situation wasn't unique.

The thing with OM was a quasi-EA that lasted for about two months early this summer. She caught herself with what could happen with such a relationship and fell apart in the process. There were underlying issues that were more important, the guy was just a trigger that pushed her over the edge.

Suffice to say that we've adopted an openness and honesty policy and are both in a better place in our marriage than we've been in a long time. There's still work to do, but we can look back and see that the worst is over.

UA time, which I thought would be so hard to do, is coming more naturally--to the point where I'm not actively thinking of how to achieve it. In other words, it's how it should be.

There were a lot of casualties, though. Our friends took my side in all this and never got over it with W. The price you pay, I suppose. We're looking for a new church as these folks are there.

I'll always appreciate the support they gave me, but now I almost resent that they cannot get over something I can move past. I hate it, we both really enjoyed that church, but don't see an alternative there and trust that God has a plan for us with it.

Another update, would appreciate the input from you guys because I think I'm slipping.

SF has started to really dwell on me, the last time for that was back around April I think. W says that she just doesn't have that desire and could go the rest of her life without it. We've never been like horny teenagers, but I never had reason to complain.

She's seen a new psychiatrist who's adjusted her anti-D meds, I think it's making progress. She also added her on Welbutrin, which is supposed to counteract most libido problems caused by anti-d medications.

But, while I think the depression is a major factor here, I think her lack of desire is just the ILYBINILWY thing. With two kids, we went so long just putting each other on the back burner that it's a logical consequence.

W and I have talked about this openly numerous times. She feels terrible that she cannot do this, but says she just doesn't feel that connection. I do understand that men and women define sex differently, and do have (I think) an idea of where she is coming from. She says she thinks about it all the time, to the point that both of us dread going to bed.

She did try about a month ago. Without going into too many details, it reminded me of those stories of women in the 1950s that would think of the grocery list while their husband "did his business." We talked about this at length, with no resolution obviously. It is a horrible memory.

I'm sad that I'm in this boat. I've generally needed SF to feel a connection. To feel loved, to feel ok, to feel accepted, to feel that everything is going to be ok, to feel that I can trust this person with anything, just to feel.

With her it's the opposite, sex is secondary as many women feel, and we're at a standstill, a catch-22--who goes first? I do, but I'm so worn out mentally that it's a monumental struggle to keep putting myself second.

But then I don't have much reason to complain, I say. I have so much GOOD in my life, so much going for me that I, honestly, hate to complain on these boards given the horrors that so many are going through. I have a W that wants to make things better, that this isn't "as good as it gets" to quote a Jack Nicholson movie.

I contemplate divorce every day, but recoil at the road that would take us down and, somehow, manage to find a minuscule thread of new resolve to repair this. But it's hard when you feel like you're the only one doing the work. I'm tired of being tired, tired of being the one to put on the happy face, tired of holding it all together so that our kids won't come from a broken home like me. Tired of being in a marriage just for the kids. Just tired. It's not what I want, I want more than this and I want it with the woman that I married.

I'm withdrawing and have told her as much. She sees it, agrees, but says she just cannot help how she feels re: SF. To do otherwise would be fake and would be an insult to me, you know?

She says she's now scared to initiate SF because of the elephant in the room. What if it's like that failed attempt a month ago? God help me, there's too much thought being put into this. But how do you create spontaneity? By meeting her top EN's, I know. She says the only reason she'd have SF is for me, which is a good thing, I know, but still...

By me withdrawing, we get into a cycle similar to how we've handled things in the past. I don't want to meet her EN's and around and around we go. But we make good roommates. That's awful.

I dread 9 pm because that's when we go to bed. Me initiating anything is off the table, I've told her as much and she appreciated the honesty.

We did fill out the EN's questionnaire about three months ago. Her top ones were family commitment, domestic support and something else that I don't recall...financial support I believe. In other words, things that she agreed I do quite well.

Sorry this is so rambling, just need to write this all down.

So, to summarize...

1. I'm not getting my top EN met (SF)..with good reason because...
2. I'm withdrawing with plenty of DJ's, almost all unfounded, and not wanting to meet her EN's. It's self destructive and I know it.
3. I don't want #1 and #2 above.

I want to read HNHN with her. I've read it, but she never showed an interest in it. Suggestions on where to go here?

Any thoughts or comments are certainly welcome.

Yo, saddest here under a new screen name.

I call NONSENSE on this.

Have been on ALL of the AD's in pretty much EVERY permutation and combination.

If she is taking an SSRI, you can add Wellbutrin until the cows come home and guess what? She's more alert, but STILL DEAD FROM THE WAIST DOWN.

See if you can get her off of the SSRI's. Ask her doctor.

Hey, I know it's not politically correct, but the truth is that us depressed women? We LOVE SF. It HEALS us.

Hey saddest, good to hear from you.

Hope things are looking up?

I don't know if cymbalta is an SSRI or not, but I think the depression is one mean [censored] and I'm surprised at how it has affected us all.

I think the downward slide started when my taker ran my giver over with a Mack truck. I know what I need to do, it's just digging up that bit of resolve that is tough.

This time of year should be better than this. Trying to put on a show for the kids sakes. I sometimes wish I could go back to when all I worried about was whether Santa would fit down the chimney.

My five year old son told me the other day that he couldn't wait to grow up. I had to take a deep breath there, to avoid saying something that would allude to what happens when we do. To avoid crushing his little heart.