I know...it's been hard. I told myself I would start trying to focus a little more on me, on doing some things for myself that would make me feel better (healthy things!) - like getting back into running and working out, I bought some hair color to take care of the grays, new nail polish, some new clothes, etc. Read good books. Eat chocolate. JC said it was OK to do things for myself, but she also emphasized healthy things - things that, for example, would address the issue of appearance/attractive spouse, for example, so that DH was also benefitting. In my last session with the counselor, he'd mentioned that as well - to concentrate on my girls, to get affection from them which would help to meet my need for affection. It can take my mind off things for a while, but I still have needs that aren't getting met by my H.


I don't know where it could be coming from, if it's occurring. Of course as he's said, he doesn't know what I do at work, and I don't know what he does there either. He's never been a very open person - other than this forum, he's really only confided in a few other male friends that I know of, and this forum. I've never had reason to suspect him of viewing porn, and if he was I'm sure he'd hide the evidence if it was on the computer or anything like that. But I'll be observant.



Thank you for the cautionary tale, DNM. I read your post about your stepbrother, and I was very sorry to hear about your loss. When I read it, I have to say that my first thought was one of fear for my DH. As a FWW (if I've earned the "F" now) I don't think I can ever possibly understand the pain of a BS. But you read stories every day in the news about incidents where it comes out later, after an act of violence, that someone involved was being unfaithful. And yet we are still such fools as to step into affairs, in spite of seeing the consequences, even second hand, through other family members or friends, or vicariously through a news story.

HHH, do you mean that it has to break through your defensive posture? If I've got that right, I think I understand. It's the walls that get put up when one spouse is in withdrawal that don't allow it to make any deposits in your LB$. And when we, as FWWs, have essentially made our words meaningless, all we have are our actions. They say actions speak louder than words, but I still need to find me some kind of super-duty megaphone one of these days.



I am glad you are helping to support my H. One of the things that was frustrating for him, he told me, was not knowing anyone who had successfully been through this situation he could talk to. Everyone that we know that has been through infidelity ended up divorced. In my aunt's case, she's married to her affair partner. Thankfully she lives about 10 hours away or I am sure I'd be subjected to her "advice" on our situation.

And my sympathies for trying to complete nursing school at the same time...I can hardley wrap my head around anything else these days, so I know adding school on top of it makes things overwhelming at times.

At this point, I'm looking at things from kind of a 12-step view.

Recovery will be a lifetime. The work will have to be done every day, all day.

That does not mean things will not ever get better, it just means that you cannot fall back into hold habits.

And, yes, I am talking about a defensive wall around the BS.

WPG, don't take his early forgiveness so seriously. I have yet to let the words slip from my mouth. I think he let his mouth write a check his patootie couldn't quite cash, even if he didn't know it.

It's not that I don't want to, but at this point I still don't understand what that means. And, as DoNoMo has graciously reminded me; forgiveness is not for me to give, it is for her to earn.

I hope he can crack out of his introverted cycle. Not just for you, but for him.

If your husband had done the same thing you have done to him, in the manner you did it, would you give him a second chance?

Before you answer..think of all you have done and the lengths you went to doing them. Would you give him what you want him to give you?

Not saying this isn't a good question. Not saying that it's not a good idea to try to "walk in the other person's shoes."

I am saying, that the thought process involved in trying to imagine versus facing the reality is a TOTALLY different thing.

I told my FWW a long, elaborate story; an imaginary affair that I could have, in actuality, engaged in. Something that could have within all reason happen.

It didn't.

She could begin to imagine how I felt, but could not actually perceive it because it was not real.

It's like trying to imagine a broken arm when you have never had a broken arm.

You might have an idea, but you don't know what it actually feels like, nor do you know how you would actually act or think facing the reality of it.

This is pretty basic in Dr. Harley's writings; most people think that they would just walk away if they faced their spouse having an affair, yet when most face the reality, they would rather recover their marriage.

Good question and good response...HHH is right. I've sat down and "imagined" H having an A and the thought of it kills me. But HHH is right - imagining it can't capture the true depth of how my H (or any BS) actually feels. In the same way, my H can't know with certainty what is in my heart - he can't possibly know the depth of my remorse or if it's genuine, because of the way I betrayed and lied to him.

In my thoughts, if I tried to imagine me being in his shoes, and him in mine...if he felt what I do now in his heart...if he was remorseful, if there was NC, if I could see how hard he was trying, then yes, I'd want to recover my marriage. The same reasons JC and I came up with as a FWW would still apply - that MB would be the best way for both of us to heal, that I would not want to look back in 10 years and have regret over not trying everything I possibly could to save my marriage, that we would be modeling a good marriage for our girls, and so on. Whichever side of the equation you are on, the recovery process is not an easy road, no one has ever said that it is, so I am not saying it would be easy.

But I know that what I want most of all is a passionate, romantic M with my DH.

I've read a lot of Dr. H's stuff and he's written about WWs vs. WHs - how recovery for a BW was nearly impossible unless her WH came to her, hat in hand, with remorse and repentance, and how WWs often are different (for example, in the Sue and Jon story in SAA, Sue never apologized to Jon). All I know is for me, I DO feel remores and repentance...I regret what I did with every bone in my body, every breath I take. If I had the power to take it all back, I would do it in a heartbeat. An empty, trashy, selfish, repulsive A cannot possibly compare in any way with what I could have - CAN have, if he chooses - with my dear husband.

But that's the crux of it - IF HE CHOOSES. I've already made my choice. I can't make his for him, no matter what I imagine my choice would be in his position.

I hope that makes sense.

Thanks for your response triple H.

WPG,
Yes it makes sense
I have asked you these questions with a purpose.
I see now that during your FR you never contacted OM, it was a FR because the truth was not all out there.

It is the lies after the affair that destroys the marriage more than the affair itself.
I know that you have learned very much during this.
I believe that you would be hard pressed to make this bad choice of having an affair and trickle truthing again in your lifetime.

No you cannot really say what you could do if your husband did the same.
Your response was that if he could look in your heart and see the remorse and how you felt. If there was NC and he was trying as you were then you would reconcile.

His problem is he believed you were being genuine and you were not and now he doesn't know what to believe.
I think he wants to believe you, but he feels like a fool for giving you his all and opening up and the situation was not as it seemed.
He is scared..yes scared to open up to you again and have the devastation happen all over again.

I believe you are genuinely remorseful and are doing all you can right now. I'm not the one that matters though.
This will be a long journey. This could take years for him to fully trust you again.
The taker in you has to be dormant or satisfied with other things like hobbies or whatever other recreation you find satisfying. His walls are going to be up for a long time and if you are not patient enough, your marriage could be over.

I know that you may want the poly to be convincing enough to move ahead and if it isn't are you ready just to give up?

Your husband is still at home. He hasn't left. Some men leave right away, but there is still love for you in him. He has it walled up because he feels if he lets you see it..he will be taken advantage of again.
Dr. Harley's method works quite a bit, sometimes it doesn't. If there is true love in the people involved there is always a chance.

I think your husband really loves you. It's just going to take time for him to believe in you and your marriage again. I hope he does. As long as you continue doing what you are doing. But don't you be the one to give up. The affair in a sense is giving up on the marriage. so technically you gave up on the marriage, he never did. If you can, let him be the one to say I can't. He feels you already told him that.

WPG, I don't know if I have ever posted to you, but I encourage you to do one thing:

Get intimately acquainted with Dr. Harley's information and the MB articles, books, etc. Then filter every comment, piece of advice, offhand remark through that. If it is a helpful posting based on marriage building, soak it up like the sun (like DNM's posts). If it comes from ANY OTHER PLACE of reference....pretend you never read it. Seriously. There's a lot of vicarious spewing going on right now on various threads. Don't let that become a distraction, and don't get caught up in trying to convince strangers who are determined not to be convinced. Build YOUR M using these principals. Ignore the rest.

Seriously.

WPG, I have read through your posts and you seem genuine in your remorse. I hope things work out between you and your H. As a new BS I am struggling with many of the same issues, and it's interesting to read your points for a different point of view.

In and of itself, acknowledging the fact that we simply cannot fathom the experience of another human being is wisdom.

For instance, in my example of a broken arm, even if we were to experience a broken arm, how we experience that is unique to each individual.

It is not wrong to try to formulate an idea of how someone thinks or feels in a situation, it's simple empathy. It's almost unavoidable when it comes to the people we love.

It is when we project our notion of that experience on to another, or how we expect another to act/think/behave/feel that we tread the waters of DJ.

I can't even to begin what my FWW is going through. Sometimes I feel that SHE has been more hurt and destroyed by this entire experience than I have. That is entirely possible, I cannot deny it, and it would be a DJ and selfish to boot.

Thanks for the endorsement, lurioosi2 Following Dr. Harley's advice has worked so well in my marriage that I'm reluctant to suggest a different course of action for others. The resentment I always felt about "losing every argument" with my wife years ago is gone. Mainly because we don't argue anymore; we negotiate.

In fact, we spoke about that last night. I mentioned that, years ago, I felt as if I always lost every argument and could never get my way. "I felt the same way!" she replied with a laugh. And it's true: we both felt like we lost every argument because we followed the "dueling dictators" strategy. Every victory would be swallowed by defeat in the next confrontation, and we'd only remember the defeats.

WPG, you're doing what you need to do. The key ingredient here is time. I am concerned about the somewhat downhill-slide I see coming out occasionally, both in your ability to Plan A your husband and in his ability to feel compensated and respond to your attention. But through that downhill slide, I see very occasional rays of sunshine slipping through, showing that your tender ministrations are getting through to him.

Keep meeting his needs. Keep avoiding Love Busters. Keep up your Extraordinary Precautions, and negotiate new ones if you and your husband need them to feel safe. Spend a minimum of 15 hours meeting each other's Intimate Emotional Needs every week (Sexual Fulfillment, Recreational Companionship, Intimate Conversation, Affection), and shoot for 30 hours. It takes that time together, and your trickle-truth (I'm not certain I'd call it a False Recovery, though you do) did a lot of damage that must be repaired by being radically honest.

Trust is built when your words align with your actions. Ensure your words and actions are consistent for long enough, and he will trust you again. It's just how it works. Even one setback can erase a lot of effort here, though. Be very open about your feelings, including the negative ones. Even if you just get a grunt in response, keep hitting that Openness & Honesty need.

I have a friend who told her DH that if he grunts in response to her questions or talking, she would just assume he said, "Why yes, sexy woman, you make take the credit card."

Thanks for the advice, luri. I have to say I truly enjoy reading your posts on so many threads because to me, you are a success story, and it's very inspiring to me to read about a FWW who has recovered her M. And you seem to have a great sense of humor to boot!


It's just that the "rays of sunshine" are so infrequent...things don't seem to get better. I admit I have a tendency to "downhill-slide". I feel like I have been trying so hard and for so long that nothing I do makes a difference. That I just can't seem to figure out the right things to do. Every day, DH gets colder and colder towards me and I am scared that he's just going to decide this is it, he's done. And I know I can't control that, that he has every right and reason to make that choice. Rights and reasons that I gave him.

The UA time is hard because he really does not want to be with me. I feel like I am forcing myself on him, even something as simple as sitting beside him on the couch. I would rather be with him than do anything else but often I find us back in the old patterns of being in different rooms.

We spent time together today but as it has been lately, it was strained. I had to go have an endoscopy done this morning which he took me to. Wasn't exactly like we were doing something fun together, although we did did to see pics of my stomach, lol...Nothing wrong with me, it's still a mystery as to why I threw up blood on our trip a couple weeks ago. We went for a late breakfast after. It was very nice of him to take me and to be there for me, and I thanked him for it.

Guys, I miss him so much.

No...to be honest I don't believe I will ever give up on him. If he ends up leaving me, I still won't give up. I guess I will never give up until the day he walks down the aisle with someone else. I have my doubts that even a poly will be sufficient enough for him, but I am leaning towards doing it anyway.

HHH, I think you have a great grasp on all the MB concepts, which is awesome when you think that have not been doing this for very long! I still feel murky sometimes in my grasp of and application of the concepts. I "get it," just like I "got" the Five Love Languages or the Love & Respect materials we went through at church. I feel like I have a plethora of tools in my toolbox, but sometimes I have a tendency to pick up a screwdriver and try to use it as a hammer.

One thought.

My wife didn't pick up the ball in recovery until I asked her to do so. I explained that I was tired of trying so hard to drive recovery, and I needed her to participate or I wouldn't have the strength to continue. She did, and it marked a strong turning point where she started taking an interest in recovering (and finding and destroying the last vestige of OM in our lives -- photos on her computer -- helped, too).

Not saying this is what you should do. But being needy and desperate is very unappealing to most men. Although you should do your best to meet his needs, it's likely you might need to focus on YOU for a while, finding those areas where an improvement in yourself will make you more attractive to him.

So what can you do to improve yourself to make sure he knows you want him, but don't need him?

My suggestions would include:

* Things to improve your appearance (diet, exercise, new clothes, whatever). This meets his need for an attractive spouse, and at the same time helps you feel better about yourself regardless of what he does or does not do.

* Taking up BH's favorite recreation or taking an interest in educating yourself on his work. Meets the RC need, and also helps Conversation a lot, while typically improving yourself.

* Invite him on activities that you plan for yourself & kids. If he comes, great! If he doesn't, let him know you miss him, answer the phone immediately if he calls, and send him some texts & photos while you're out. Show that you are strong and independent, but want him by your side.

* Work on improving the cleanliness of your home, little by little. Invite him to participate with you in household chores, and walk away to get it done without spite if he doesn't express interest.

* Plan a small home improvement project and do everything you need from end-to-end to see it done. Invite your husband to participate, but demonstrate your competence and commitment to improving your shared domicile. This can be as simple as painting some doorframes, mending a fence, or hiring a cabinetmaker to fix some broken kitchen drawers.

* Put yourself on a schedule to send BH texts about your day. Once an hour or so. "At hairdresser's". "At work, what are you up to?" "Chatting with kids about their plans tonight; what are your plans?" Sure, he'll be annoyed at first. That's normal. He'll begin to enjoy it after a while.

* Casually join him in whatever he's working on. Don't have to snuggle in close, but showing that you're enjoying the TV show or holding the board while he cuts it goes a long way.

* Invite him to lunch with you near his work. If he doesn't show up, enjoy your lunch alone, take some photos on your phone and send it to him to let him know what he's missing.

* Go strengthen some close friendships with women who are friends of both you & hubby. Schedule one date a week with these girlfriends, let hubby know exactly where you'll be eating and who with, take pictures, and enjoy the girl-time.

These are all ideas FWW ran with. And they all helped, some more than others.

DoNoMo,

Has your wife done these things? I agree that they are wonderful things - just hadn't read about them in your thread. I thought you were still struggling with feeling like she wasn't picking up her share of the load? Or maybe she has, and you just haven't written about it? I just remember your recent (within the past 6 months) posts about how you feel like she wants things like the garden, but doesn't actually help out.

Anyway, sorry to T/J. HU, stay strong and follow Dr. Harley's precepts. You can't go wrong there!

Arpeggi,

Appreciate it if you removed my real name from your post, thanks. Not sure how or when that leaked into my conversations here at any point, actually. I'm now very concerned why my real name is known.

And yes, as I mentioned in my post, at one point or another she's done each of these activities in the course of the past year. It's her diligence with them that waxes and wanes

The lesson I'm learning is how I feel about the relationship -- even the cleanliness of the house, or lack thereof -- really depends on where I am in the Three States of Marriage.

When I'm in Intimacy, as I am this morning, I don't care much about the little messes around the house. I'll tend to initiate projects, give her massages for her carpal tunnel syndrome, and do a lot to keep the house tidy. I'm happy to work hard and bring in a good living for my family, even though right now that is requiring me to work two jobs and 70+ hours a week. I'm satisfied with our sex life and think she's great for me.

When I'm in Conflict, I tend to feel that I'm doing more than my fair share by working two jobs and cleaning the house when she has spare time to make jewelry with her bead collection, that she's slacking off around the house, etc. I'll resent that I give her ten or fifteen massages to the one that she'll return. I'll want her to initiate in our sex life and think it's unfair that she only initiates once every few months.

This helps highlight those agreements that are "bad" agreements for me, too. If I feel badly about an agreement when I'm in Conflict, I didn't POJA well and should renegotiate so that I'm enthusiastic about it in either Intimacy and Conflict. And it also reminds me that one of my primary goals is to always stay in Intimacy with my spouse, because the resentment of Conflict tends to feed on itself. These days, I'm doing much better at saying exactly what it is that is bothering me when I'm in Conflict, and it turns out that this may have been the magic ingredient. If I am open about how I'm feeling about, for instance, not looking forward to working on a home improvement project, she'll go out of her way to help motivate me and pitch in. If I sullenly pout about it, she's not very good at reading minds!

Thanks for the suggestions, DNM. I'll work on those - I admit I have not done much focusing on me lately. It's hard, sometimes I don't even feel motivated to do anything for myself. But, I suppose I need to be a realist and recognize that if this marriage never turns around, I am going to have to stand on my own two feet anyway and neediness is not going to accomplish anything if I end up alone. Neediness is not getting him off the fence and getting him actively involved in our M.

And maybe that "finding and destroying the last vestiges of OM"...maybe when DH is ready to expose to OMW, after she has some time to recover from having her baby, and maybe me taking the poly, well, maybe those will be the final stakes in the vampire's heart, so to speak.

I have told him that I need his help, his feedback and I get no response. Here's something that confuses me - I don't understand why he is putting a lot of effort (and money) lately in doing things around the house. Don't get me wrong, it's great - we've got a gorgeous new floor on our front porch, landscaping in progress...but why would he put time and effort into that if he doesn't want our marriage? Why talk kitchen cabinets if we're not going to be together? I love what he's doing to the house and I try to let him know and be encouraging, offer to help (guess I just need to jump on in instead of asking) and so on. Since I learned about the Five Love Languages, I've felt like acts of service was his "love language." I don't know. I feel like I spend too much time trying to figure him out. To me, even though I love the work he is doing to the house, if he's not going to be in it with me, then it's just a house. Even if it's the only home the kids have known, if he's not in it, I don't want to be there either.

It's funny to me (ironic funny, not funny ha-ha) that the thought of living in a house with OM makes me feel sick. I can't even picture OM doing anything useful around the house. He wouldn't have even killed spiders for me, the wuss.

He went to bed early last night and on into work in the wee hours of the morning. He's been off this week so needed to go in, I can understand that. I slipped a little note in his wallet this morning and found it left behind on the counter when I got up. Sent him a couple of emails, one this morning when I woke up and one when I got in my office. We've got a thing at the girls' school this afternoon so planned to go home first so we could ride together.

He has said nothing else about my willingness to take a poly. Part of it I am sure comes from my offer to take one during the FR (or period of trickle truth, if that's better, DNM! ). I offered then because I knew he'd never expect me to take one. If I'd been asked to, I don't know what I would have done. Broke down sooner, I suppose. I worry that if I do take one, he'll still doubt the results. Rock and a hard place. I just don't know any other way to directly address his doubts about my O&H about the A and even my past with OM (I added another issue to the poly and that's whether or not I had sex with OM when DH and I were dating). It's difficult for me to be O&H now about the present - not about the A, but how I am feeling in recovery - because we are not engaging in enough UA time or having conversations. I KNOW UA time is a critical element of Dr. H's program. I am not the one who is resistant to UA time - I want it! But things are becoming harder and harder in Plan A - it's like an uphill slog - because my most important needs aren't being met. I can't say none of my needs are being met, as some are, but not my top 5 or even top 3. I don't know how I am doing with his needs as he seems to be staying in withdrawal.

Nothing much else new to report.

That's typically a sign of depression. Combining this with sleeping too much -- or difficulty sleeping at all -- difficulty with concentration, a feeling of hopelessness or helplessness, and loss of appetite or raging appetite, and you're almost certainly depressed. Seek some treatment from an individual counselor and possibly AD meds to get you through this trying time.

Two reasons:
1. Actions speak louder than words, particularly for many "strong, silent type" of men.
2. When my hands are busy, my mind is silent.


Don't read too much into this. Probably means he found it and read it, not necessarily that he found it and refused it.


I only vacillate as to what to call it because it appears it wasn't a false recovery, since you were no longer in contact with OM at the time. It was a period of you lying to him about the extent of the affair, which is "trickle-truth" or "wayward fog" or whatever you want to call it. False recovery implies you were still seeing OM during that time. Were you?



Then find a way to meet O&H obliquely. Keep a journal on your computer, and make sure he knows where it's located on your hard drive. Write in it when you're in the same room with hubby, and if he asks what you're doing, explain that you're writing in your journal.


Why not call in to the radio show and ask some advice from the master himself? I'm amazed he does 5 free hours of counseling a week!


Watch his actions. Ignore his words for a while. You might see a different picture than what you think.

Ah...will take a look.



To back up your words about the children and alimony, you can back that up with a legal agreement. If you both make about the same, the alimony may be moot anyway but this may be a gesture of goodwill and Just Compensation to your BH...he will have one less thing to worry about if you put it in wrting. The custody may be a bit more complex to address at this point but you can check into it.