SW, let me clear this up a bit. Having so many small children certainly is demanding, on both Prisca and on myself.

But Prisca's main source of difficulty is her husband. He's not worthwhile to be around. Obviously, right, or she'd be jumping at the chance to do romantic things with me, right? I have got to figure that out and get it changed. For her, for me, and for our children.

(Going to move from responding to you directly, SW, to just rambling in general, now...)

I think maybe the focus on UA time here has been a little bit blurry. Yes, it is true that I am disappointed that we haven't been spending this time giving each other our undivided attention and meeting our intimate emotional needs. I'm really suffering the lack of affection and recreational companionship. (Haven't been to the gym in a week, and there's this whole long backlog of things we planned to do all year and never did. And now with Christmas coming up, which used to be such a time of affection and recreation for us together, I'm feeling that lack many times over. Christmas has never depressed me in my life until this year.)

But ... that's not how I got here looking at UA time.

Tuesday Prisca had an angry outburst at me. We were talking quite pleasantly, I thought, online, and then she kicked me out of our email account. (Never knew you could log someone out remotely through gmail.) And again, and again. {It took me awhile to realize what was happening. Did I mention I'm clueless?}

I pulled back and thought "What is going on? Why is this not working? I've spent all year bending over backward trying to become a source of happiness for her." And my answer to "why is this not working?" always comes right back to the core of Marriage Builders: this program works when followed, it does not work when you do not follow the POUA, it can't be cherry picked and the POUA especially can't be cherry picked, and when you follow the POUA everything else becomes easier. It's absolutely the most important thing you can do to guarantee success.

So I pulled up the list I've been keeping of our UA activities and tallied all the numbers for the first time, and I posted them here, no explanation. Just looking at them. Here is our problem. Here is why Prisca is so unhappy. Stare at it long enough, listen to comments, and maybe a solution will emerge, I'm thinking.

The number one cause of depression for a woman is her relationship with her husband or boyfriend.

Hi, I'm markos, and I'm the cause of Prisca's depression.

If I could spend 15-20 hours a week with her making her happy, all that would probably lift.

But she doesn't want to do that. All the backing out, all the hesitancy, all of this indicates UA time can't possibly be making her happy.

Steve said when we started following the POUA I need to make it better for her than what we'd been doing before, and I needed to make it the most enjoyable part of her week.

Now, it's hard to get good at something with limited opportunities to practice. But still, somehow I have to get good at this. If I can't succeed at making UA time something that Prisca WANTS, then our marriage will never be good for her in a sustainable way.

Just thinking out loud. More later.

Markos, I have been thinking about your thread for the past two days. I don't have profound wisdom, but I wanted you and Prisca both to know that I have said several prayers for each and both of you and I will continue to do so.

(((((Markos and Prisca
(That's a side hug)

I suspected that depression might be an issue, and I'm sorry to hear that it is.

markos, it would make things a lot easier if you could try and spell out what you think you need help with; or to put it another way, to tell us what you DON'T need help with.

For example, it is almost inevitable that people are going to home in on the fact that you have had 6 children in 6 years, and that one was born just a few months ago. Some people will talk to you as if you haven't noticed that 6 young children are a lot of work and assume that, for the life of you, you cannot work out why you don't have time to relax with our wife. Some people will try to discuss birth control with you, when you don't want to discuss this here, and did not ask for help with it.

Some people will assume that you haven't twigged that you need a routine for chores. Some will assume that you cannot think of anything pleasant to do in the evenings, and on it goes.

I'm beginning to see that you are not looking for help with these things at all. The Harley follow-up materials that you are currently both using help you to plan things and brainstorm problems perfectly well.

You and Prisca have planned your chores. You have brainstormed UA activities. You have identified your ENs and told the other person about them. There is a temporary problem with the washing machine, which means that you must spend two hours per evening at the laundry, but apart from that, you have two hours per night, after the kids go to bed, to spend together. You have plans for that time, yet when it comes to that time, you are spending it apart. I think we have established that much (although it ws like getting blood out of a stone!)

I came here today to make even more suggestions about online grocery shopping, and finding other ways to make sure that daytime chores were done so that Prisca was not disappointed and overwhelmed, but I see now that this is not the kind of issue that you need help with.

I can't quite believe that you've come here for help with depression, because I think you'd already be talking to your doctor about that.

Is the issue motivation? Do you lack motivation to improve your marriage? Are you looking for help with that?

Are you looking for help in motivating Prisca?

Do you know what specific help you are seeking, or is this part of the problem - that it is something you have trouble identifying?

I don't have a family anymore. They were so critical of Prisca and so inappropriate in trying to relate to me secretly and direct our relationship without her knowledge or consent that she doesn't want to see them any more, and I don't blame her. I told them we can't put this back together again until they reconcile with my wife. Nothing I've heard back from them since then indicates any willingness to do that at this point.

We have enough problems without Prisca having to deal with inlaws from hell.

I don't know the figures, but I should think that the number one cause of depression for a woman who has had a baby in the last year is PPD, a clinical condition.

Help me figure out how to make UA time something that Prisca will want! When the pattern is that she has passively or actively rejected many, many things that we have planned, then I know that it is just not worth it for her and something needs to be different.

We are going to be following Dr. Harley's strategy for domestic support and I suspect that is going to resolve a lot of our issues there. But I don't think I can ever achieve the goal of a happy relationship for Prisca with domestic support alone.

And, yes, keep me going. I can't give up on this. Don't do that by sending a lot of praise, just keep our real problems in front of me and keep me focused on solving them. Comments that encourage me to just accept a lesser standard are demotivating, comments that remind me that this can't work until we get this going and so I have to figure something out are very motivating.

Something that I keep coming back to is the statement that this marriage absolutely won't work without at least 15 hours of UA time.

While I respect Dr. Harely and his views, I think that pounding a someone over the head with that when they are clearly not there is the cause of many problems.

As a mother, I am constantly getting inundated with things I'm supposed to do and if I don't do them, I don't care about my (fill in the blank...husband/children/home/self/family). That is a lot of pressure.

15 hours should certainly be strived for BUT I don't think we need to blame a certain perosn when circumstances interfere. Printing the list made it appear that Markos was upset about it and Prisca needed to fix it.

Many are discussing their large family but in reality many of life's circumstances intrude on our ability to relax and enjoy the 2 intimate needs and most of these are just simply nobody's fault.

The loss of the washer for instance, couldn't really be planned for but I can tell you that I cannont think of one enjoyable activity that I would be able to engage in knowing that the laundry was piled high along with the dishes in the sink.

Illness of a family member (immediate or extended) Once again, I could not enjoy recreational activites or SF while neglecting a sick child or relative.

You can add to the list as you see fit. I know that everyone will say that a strong marriage is THE single most important thing to handle everything life will throw at you. I agree sitting her with my healthy, financially sound family; HOWEVER, I've also been told if a bear is nearby to stand really really still and wait for it to go away....I think I would be running my @$$ off.

I know the right way to lose weight, I know the way to improve my children's educational performance, I know how to train my dog and I am sure Prisca knows how to build romance in her marriage. The problem is having your shortcomings and failures pointed out to you in black and white may not be the best way to address this.

Brainstorming ideas will work if both parties enter into it with no defensiveness or expectations. The minute it becomes a "well why can't you do this if you expect me to do that?" then all bets are off.

Dr. Harely's program is great as it is presented. I believe the counselors are excellent and getting their clients to "buy into" the program....unfortunately what I hear on here sometimes is things that would turn me off.

TV isn't UA time, turn it off, I don't care how much you like it.

You must give up the activity you've done your entire life because your wife doesn't like it.

You need to stop all contact with your friend/family/collegue because it makes your husband/wife uncomfortable.

Again, I will say all these things probably need to be accomplished in many of these instances but when they are demanded by a spouse or even by a poster here it has a very negative connotation.

I breastfed my babies. It is the best thing for them. This is a well documented proven fact. Fortunately, I was able to withstand the die hards who led me to believe I had to do it forever, I must never supplement or use a pacifier, I not use a bottle as it would cause nipple confusion. One lady told me if my infant wanted to eat every 1/2 hours so be it.

I breastfed for over a year with both children. They received tons of benefits. I did supplement,use a pacifier and a bottle. I did the best I could. I have several friends who stopped after a week. The pressure was too much. They didn't know they had an alternative so they just gave up.

We should always set the bar high so we must strive to reach it but if it gets too high, we may just quit jumping all together.

Almost seems like a which came first type of issue the chicken or the egg. I, guess, first is the DS thing a big issue for her? I know it is for me and I also know that it's not for my wife so that was an issue for us. I, myself, had a hard time going out or even sitting idly knowing that there were chores to be done. I'm not a neat freak or OCD I just want a fairly clean house.

Our solution was along with breaking out the chores we hired a made to come in for 3 hours every 2 weeks to do those things neither of us want to do. Funny thing, we started cleaning a little more maybe because we wanted it to be clean for the maid, I don't know...lol.... Anywho, that whole thing relieved us both so much and allowed us to have quality stress free UA time.... So is that the chicken or the egg? I don't know......

I understand the in-laws from hell thing. I haven't seen my in-laws for 12 years since there was a major fight.


How do you feel about not seeing your family? Do you feel like you are making a sacrifice for Prisca in choosing not to see your family?

I had edited my post to you to include a question about friends in your circle. Are there other couples that have a similar lifestyle to yours in your circle of friends?

I think you should look into PPD, as raremamajewel suggested.

Whether that is ruled in or out, I think that your approach to domestic support and childcare is a large part of the problem. By that I mean your attitude (you, markos), not your joint approach.

I think it would help if you stopped seeing DS as "helping" Prisca, as if you aren't equally responsible for tasks.

I doubt that Prisca sees looking after the children as helping you. I doubt that she sees cleaning up a mess they have made, or feeding them, as helping you.

Tell me if I am wrong, but I think you see dealing with the kids and domestic jobs as helping her.

The kids are 100% your responsibility and 100% hers. You have divided up tasks so that she is at home when you are at work. When you are at work, you cannot deal face-to-face with the kids, but you can make phone calls about the fridge, or pick up the shopping, or whatever is fair. If you REALLY can't do these things from work, then find a solution, but don't NOT do them.

When you are at home, get on with the washing up, and don't think of it as helping. You wouldn't think washing dishes was "helping" if you lived alone; it would just be a job that needed doing. You wouldn't NOT wash the dishes because you are angry at your boss, or the late trains, or anything else, so don't NOT wash the dishes because you are angry with Prisca.

If you were a single dad you couldn't lock yourself in a bedroom and leave 6 kids, whatever they had done to annoy you; not the two under 2s, anyway. In a crisis, as a single dad, you would probably make sure that the two babies are physically safe and walk out of the room and breathe, but you wouldn't be able to lock yourself away for hours, so don't do that now as a married father.

Change your attitude to DS and the kids, so that you do not question your responsibilities, or baulk at them, or act as if they are really Prisca's responsibilities with which you are "helping". That is not to say that you must do all the jobs; I am saying that, once you and Prisca have looked again at what is fair, and used Dr Harley's DS guidelines, then do yours, always. No sulking. Man up, and grow up.

That's my advice for now, based on what you have described.

My thoughts exactly.

The feelings of withdrawal and hesitancy, AO, etc can be symptoms of PPD, along with other things. I hope that you can make sure that Prisca isn't suffering from PPD. If she is, then you could hit every target, Markos, and Prisca would still be feeling empty. Clinical depression isn't something a person can get out of by just thinking good thoughts.

I get the UA time Markos, I really do. Do understand, however, that the whole young children thing is biologically demanding of a mother.

The first few years require a lot from the mother, and the first few months of bonding is really critical.

So, how can we foster some UA time? How can you make it something she wants to do?

Markos, do you enjoy pampering your wife? Is it something you enjoy, enthusiastically? This may be your answer.

Maybe the UA time you can offer is some good, old fashioned, mama pampering; get a manicure kit and do her nails (file, polish, etc), get a nice lavender scented lotion, and give her a full body massage, run her a nice hot bubble bath with bath salts (join her - run the hot water over her skin), offer to relax and read with/to her.

Make that time an opportunity for her to melt, and relax, and to just not worry for 30 minutes here and there.

Snaps, Sugar. That's spot on.

Dear markos,

You know better. If you are bending over backward, you are sacrificing. And you know that is not sustainable.

You have got to create a way to be Prisca's source of happiness without creating unhappiness for yourself. You have got to find a win-win solution.

You already know all this, but I thought I'd lay it out for you in black and white.

Sincerely,
markos

SugarCane, you did it well for me. All of the below things you have mentioned are things I already know, and know well. I'm working on putting my problems into stark relief so I can focus on exactly what I need to do. You are helping quite a bit; thank you.

Sunny, this is what I mean when I say I think my emphasis here has gone out of focus. I am not here to pound Prisca or anyone else over the head with the POUA. I am here to light a fire under my problem and start cooking up a solution.

I can only do that with extreme focus on the problem.

I recognize you have some other concerns and questions about Dr. Harley's program, and I encourage you to start more threads about those.


Think about the 2x4s I would receive if I said "As a father (or husband, or employee) I am constantly getting inundated with things I'm supposed to do, and if I don't do them, I don't care about my wife."


Exactly, and one of the things my coach emphasized to me strongly yesterday is that I absolutely cannot be demanding UA time or anything else.

Kim was very VERY quick to point out that I must not be DEMANDING UA time, or even doing anything that could be seen as demanding.

This thread probably qualifies and probably looks a lot like demanding.

I want a good marriage for me and Prisca. I know we can't have one if we don't spend fifteen hours a week giving each other our undivided attention. I know Prisca wants a good marriage, too. This is a goal we share. This is something we're going to have to face if we're going to reach that goal.

It seems like a lot of the things I'm saying are easy to misunderstand.

My commitment is permanent. I am not contemplating or threatening divorce.

My coach brought this up yesterday and reviewed it with me. Her wording was that this was a "concession" from her's and Dr. Harley's point of view, something offered because it was all Prisca wanted to do. We're to include up to 2 hours per week (I was confused and had that as "two nights," which had us including up to 4 hours) and fill the rest with other activities.

My original agreement with Prisca was that if we were scheduling over 15 hours a week (we were scheduling 20) that I would be willing to schedule television, as long as the first 15 went to other things. I didn't defend that position, and it wasn't long until all we were doing was television, and Prisca says she doesn't remember that agreement at all.

Domestic Support needs are a sticking point that we are going to have to work through. What everybody is saying about that is correct; we're going to be working on that at the direction of our coach and Dr. Harley through the strategy he gives in HNHN in the domestic support chapter.

Unfortunately the problem has never been as clear as "she won't spend UA or RC time unless and until the DS has reached a satisfactory level." They aren't coupled together like that. She hasn't said "I'll spend time with you and try this policy if you'll take care of the following chores." If she had maybe this would be easier. There's still something making her reluctant about UA time, even if DS is to be perfectly worked out.

That problem is something Prisca and I are going to have to solve together.