Dr. Harley: "What he is doing right now is protecting himself from you emotionally by withdrawing."

"He feels hopeless."

One day at a time...

the rest will follow

I believe it.

You know that you were the one that made me finally sign up, WPG. The personality and attitude similarities between you and FWW, not to mention some similarities between your BH and I really draw both FWW and I to cheer for you guys.

I really wish there was more I personally could do for your BH. I know where he is. I don't know what has kept me from being exactly the same as he has been.

Your struggle has helped me understand my own wife so much better, and I thank you for that.

Trust me - get over those little temper tantrums, and keep tossing the rice. Even when you can't see it, some things are making it through. Some things are sticking.

When he closes in the most, is when you need to fight the hardest.

FWW is a PITA every time I start withdrawing. She will freaking puppy dog me, and not allow me to find that spot to curl up and die.

*edit*

- When I retreat, there is the part of me that wants to shut it all out, but there is also that part that wants her to fight. Guess which one works better?

Quit letting him run, quit letting him hide. Even if all you get is silence, BE IN THAT SILENCE. Put a hand on him, hold him, whatever you will be allowed to do. When he pulls, you push.

FIGHT!

Wolfgurl, here is your radio clip.

Thank you so much, Melody!

lol, yeah, I do have a bit of a drawl, huh?


I can't speak for my H, but trust me, HHH, you HAVE done a lot for me. Your perspective, your thoughts and observations, have been extremely helpful. And I am rooting for you and your FWW as well - and I can't explain it, but I have a really good feeling about the two of you.

I'm looking foward to a week off from work, to spending time with H and the girls, celebrating his b-day, just enjoying each other. We're doing a ton of projects around the house so I am going to have a million opportunities to fulfill his EN for admiration and to work with him side by side!

Well, a few days with no update, just to let you all know what is going on...

H's father passed away Saturday - literally within a couple of hours of my last post. It's been a hard week for him, as well as the rest of the family. I haven't really known what to do to help H, since he was already withdrawn. It worked out well I was off work this week as I have had time to do "stuff" so that he didn't have to. He's pretty much been gone since Saturday, staying with his stepmother since Monday.

Anyway, the girls and I have been over there almost every day. I took care of getting his suit to the cleaners, brought them breakfast one morning, gathered pictures the family wanted at the service and got copies made and framed. Tuesday was H's birthday, and He'd texted me Monday night and said he was staying over there and I asked if he'd be home for dinner Tuesday, the girls and I wanted to cook. He said he wasn't sure. I woke up Tuesday morning and had the thought, "if Mohammed won't come to the mountain, the mountain will come to Mohammed"...we took his birthday to him and had dinner with the family - his stepmom, his sister and her kids, and his mom stopped by. At home I've worked on some projects that I felt confident taking on solo - starting to repaint the kids' rooms mainly (I am a horribly sloppy painter, though!). Pretty much have Christmas done, except for wrapping everything and have not put together DD#1's big Santa gift, but going to try and do that today.

Had some tough moments this week when H's stepmom said that she wanted me to speak for the family at the service. I was incredibly moved. I know H hasn't told anyone in his family except for his aunt about my A, but the first thing I thought of was H and how it might make him feel to have me speak at the service. So I told her that H and I were going through some very difficult times and that I wanted her to please talk to him first because I didn't want to do anything that would make him upset, angry, uncomfortable, etc. She talked to him that night - I don't know what was said, but she said that yes, the "family" wanted me to speak.

I've been an instructor for over 10 years now. I've spoken in front of crowds of 200+ people. But last night's memorial service was the toughest experience I've ever had speaking in front of anyone. I thanked the folks his stepmom wanted thanked, spoke a few words about H's dad and how he'd taught his kids to be good parents, and I read a poem about fishing. I just wanted it to be what they wanted it to be, I don't know if that makes sense.

H's good friend from work came. I wasn't sure how he'd react to me, since he knows the whole story. But he was polite as ever and we talked a bit before the service, while H was talking with some other folks. After the service I was standing with H and the rest of the family and his friend came up and gave me a quick hug (H was standing beside me, and there was no LB$ filling here!) and told me how he liked what I'd said during the service.

Anyway, I guess the crux of it is that even before the A, H has never been the type that wants someone to hold him and comfort him - I'm the opposite - so it was a growth experience for me this week to seek out other ways to show care and concern. Maybe I did it right, maybe not. I just felt the need to keep busy. But I did what I could this week and will keep on doing it, not just for him, but I know from experience after my grandfather died nearly 13 years ago that for the rest of the world, life goes on, and the rest of the world will forget and I don't want his stepmom to feel the world has forgotten her loss.

But yes, I have missed H this week. I'd hoped he would come home last night, he brought his toothbrush and stuff home (had to take them over to him when we went Tuesday, plus a change of clothes because I realized he went over there with nothing other than the clothes on his back). I tried to wait up for him and was sitting here at the desk (reading the forums, as a matter of fact!) and fell asleep with my head on the desk. Woke up with papers stuck to my head about an hour of so later and went to bed, no H. Hoping he will come home for Christmas Eve, if not for me, then for the girls, but that is his choice. I will finish up the Christmas shopping today (yeah, last minute I know), start wrapping presents and do my baking for tomorrow. 2 pies and a cheesecake. Better make 2 cheesecakes, actually, 'cause if I take one to my MIL's and not to my parents' I will be in biiiig trouble.

So I'm still muddling along. I am missing H this week, my plans for working on all these projects by his side kind of flew out the window, so I had to find other ways to try and meet his needs. I wish I could do more for him.

I'll keep trying to post updates infrequently. I think that maybe it's not so good for me to vent, and I'd been doing overmuch of that on here. I seem to pass a point where I vent too much and get angry and then I'm no good to anyone.

Merry Christmas, everyone! Hoping for a white Christmas down south, and we just might get it (everybody go out and buy your milk, bread, and toilet paper, lol)

I'm very sorry to hear about your families loss.

Given all that's been going on, sounds like you've done well.

Enjoy your girls and have a Merry Christmas.

The snow was beautiful. 6.5" in our yard. Finally tore DD#1 off the computer long enough to enjoy it.

DH came home for Christmas Eve, but slept on the couch in the bonus room. Has moved out of the bedroom. He's up there on the couch now. I can't get close to him and he doesn't talk to me at all now, I try to draw him out and ask questions about things he's doing or watching on TV but he barely responds. I've been cooking dinner and taking care of the childcare and domestic stuff - he usually cooks meals for us so it's a record I've cooked 2 nights in a row, lol...well OK, we had leftovers from Christmas Eve last night and I cooked again tonight.

Been making sure he has coffee in the AM, sitting on the couch downstairs with him in the evenings after the kids have gone to bed either watching TV with him or reading while he watches TV. He's affectionate with the kids and went outside with all of us today in the snow. He called his stepmom and called his grandma yesterday, she was sick and we didn't see her Christmas Day.

Christmas Eve we did the Santa thing together, sort of. We were in the same room. He put the Barbie house together and I came over and helped with some of the furniture and then offered to put the stickers on. Christmas Day the kids opened their presents and he opened his gifts. Went to his mom's for dinner that afternoon.

I ended up going for a run in the dark and the rain when we got home yesterday, I had to get out.

He's told me he wants me to just go away and leave. Leave him, leave the girls. Permanently.

His dad's death has taken him to a very dark place and I am not the one he wants to comfort him. He doesn't even want me around. I'd love to crawl up next to him on the couch right now but I am actually afraid he would hurt me physically if I got too close, considering how he has responded when I've tentatively tried to get close to him. I don't know what he needs right now or how to give it to him. Other than he wants me to leave.

I'm trying, if anybody has any other suggestions I'm up for them. I'm avoiding LBs and trying to do the best I can to meet his needs, but I know I am not meeting the intimate ENs, not for lack of desire to do so or trying.

I'm sorry, wpg.

Continue doing what you've been doing.... Stay the course!

He will have to decide when to engage or when to call it quits.

Your girls need you, and he needs you.....

I'm sorry you're all in a valley such as this!

WPG,

Don't leave and realize that he is as you said, in a dark place, not entirely of your creating. Hang in there girl and be a good mom to your children and as good a friend as you can be to everyone else.

You are doing well, and you did VERY VERY well for your H, his family and yours by your actions these past weeks.

God Bless,

JL

He is going to pull away, he is going to push you, he is going to fight your very presence.

You have made yourself the disease and not the cure in his heart and mind - it is up to YOU to continue to behave OTHERWISE.


WPG - gg said it somewhere, and I recognize it every day; allowing him to push you away, allowing him to hide is what is getting you nowhere.

THAT is the fundamental difference between FWW and you, she won't go the hell away and let me die already.

Thank you for the support. I know it is my fear that keeps me from not letting him push me away. I know somewhere he still loves me. We'd gotten past the mess I created over my b-day, and had some good moments, and then his world just shot out from under him.

After last night/this morning, I need someone else's take on things. I "warned" him I wanted to run this morning and would be on the treadmill, it's in the bonus room where he's been sleeping (and I believe I sound like the t-rex in Jurassic Park when I'm going full tilt on that thing) in the hopes he'd come to bed. I tried talking to him before bed, telling him that I'm here for him, whatever he needs, I want to care for him...when I got to "I miss being close to you" he got up off the couch and went into the garage. Maybe I should have followed him out but I didn't. Went upstairs and got ready for bed. Slipped back downstairs and sent him an email, not a dirty one, but basically telling him I wanted him to come to bed with me and I told him I wanted all of him. All the anger, pain, everything, that I could take it.

Anyway, he didn't come to bed, but slept downstairs on the couch. I woke up in the wee hours of the morning and went downstairs. He will tolerate me close to him while he is asleep. So I sat there with him a while and eventually he moved enough on the couch so I curled up against him. Noticed, uhm, well, you know. So I took advantage of that. After a bit I told him he needed to come upstairs (you never know when the kids will wake up) and he did. Afterwards he fell back asleep in the bed.

I guess what I wonder is does it mean anything? He touched me during SF, but refused to kiss me. He didn't say anything to me throughout. I curled up next to him with my head on his chest after, he wouldn't touch me yet he didn't pull away. Even though I tend to have a pretty high drive, it seems men & women tend to view SF differently...he has said in the past that he would never use me just to "scratch an itch" but...I'm just confused. Am I overanalyzing? Basically I am trying to be real careful not to - in HHH's words, "Tommy Boy" myself again.

I'm just glad I got him in the bed, even if it was for just a little while. I hated to have to leave this morning and go to work, I wanted to stay close to him. In a way, I feel like he's not punishing me by sleeping on the couch, he's punishing himself. Does that make sense?

I hope that your BH comes around Wulfpack.

I was thinking about you this weekend and hoping y'all were well. I believe you live near me (I'm in The Dash), and I hope y'all enjoyed the snow.

WPG,

Us guys bond via SF. I don't think what you did was bad. I doubt it will turn him around...YET! But, physical contact with him will allow him to normalize his feelings about you.

I'm thinking and it is only an idea on my part that you doing what you did "allowed" him to do what he wanted without admitting that he needs you. It is a pride thing for him, is my guess.

There is no way he could approach you, because that would show weakness on his part and make you think he had forgiven you, yet... Do you see what I mean? If he had minded at all it would NOT have happened, it is hard to rape a man in the way you have intimated you two got together. So my take, doing this allowed him to "protect" himself but he liked it as well.

Which means if I am at all correct you won't get a "thank you" or "that was hot last night", but you will see perhaps a slight change in how he handles himself physically around you.

I think you did fine, but what do I know?

Hang in there girl.

God Bless,

JL

HELLO? Ya think?


Yup.

Think back to your betrayal; as you engaged in each and every step, do you remember feeling a tad bit crazy? Do you remember the arguing voices in your head?

I can't name them all any more, but I remember the count; 9. I had nine distinct voices, nine personalities screaming inside my brain every day after the full truth came out. My mind was BROKEN, shattered. In a sense, it still is.

At least ONE of those voices in his head still loves you, and it is loud enough and persistent enough that he hasn't left, nor has he left your $#!+ on the porch. That voice has a LOT of competition to keep him there. You need to give that voice some ammo; "See guys, she's ok! We can do this!"


Indirect dishonesty. Trickery. Just be freaking honest. Being elaborately manipulative a) didn't achieve your goal and b) didn't save you from being or feeling rejected. It also didn't directly communicated your feeling to him at all!


Doing good...


Made it about what you want/need from him... which in his mind right now, really doesn't matter. You have demonstrated that you can and will go outside of the marriage to fill your needs. He is stuck in that mode of thought.

So, the thought is "Why should I give you that? You were just fine taking it from any schmuck off the street not too long ago, so what makes me special now? Why should I believe you now?


Gave up without a fight... again.


Then do it.

Question; is he physically aggressive when you say he won't "tolerate" you, or is it his demeanor that you allow to chase you off?


One grain of rice from a handful found it's way into the crack!


WPG, there are times where I have to fight every fiber of my being simply to hold FWW's hand, to touch her at all in any way. Kissing or SF sometimes makes it even worse. Sometimes I have to fight to not be physically ill. Yes, even now.



Are you sure? You could very well be treading some dangerous DJ waters here. It's not a "men and women" thing here, it's a you and him thing.

He still refuses to use you to scratch an itch, but something that he has held as special, you gave away to someone who specifically used you to scratch an itch. It doesn't feel that damn special any more.

As JL stated, you really can't "rape" a man in that fashion. FWW can tell when things just aren't going to happen. Some things just don't reach running condition when my emotional state isn't in sync. The idea that men are somehow not emotionally involved in SF is a DJ that I would venture to say is responsible for many, many wrecked marriages.


You ARE over analyzing, and missing the point that your BH allowed himself to be very vulnerable even for that short amount of time.

That is why SF is an intimate need - it requires vulnerability to partake in.



No, he's protecting himself. He's trying to disconnect himself to walk the freak away.

WPG, he is yours to lose.

You showed him you don't care enough to fight for his love, even versus some douchenozzle giving you petty attention. Not a single lick of fight. So, where do you think not fighting now is going to get you?

It's a test, WPG. Maybe it's manipulative, but it damn sure ain't a game. You want to be here? Then prove it! Every day, every breath, every action!

He'll push, and pull, and hide, and fight, and resist. And, if you let him, he will walk the he77 away and not look back.

It's all I'm waiting for; one slip down that old path, one reason to step, just one more reason to not believe - or just a little hint that she's not in this 297.367452%.

When he pushes; push back. When he pulls away; pull him back. When he runs; chase. When he hides; find him.

He is yours to lose. So don't lose.

Hi Hopeful - you are close to us - we're in "The Peak", lol...think you guys got a bit more snow than we did over your way - we had about 6.5" and it was gorgeous - kids enjoyed playing in it, kept wanting to eat it for some strange reason - I figured as long as it wasn't yellow they were ok! Should have made some snow cream, though - my grandma used to make it when I was little.




I think I understand. He doesn't want me to feel like I'm "off the hook", maybe? I wasn't even planning on it this morning, I just went looking for him. Was suprised when I noticed he was willing. I'm afraid though that the intimacy this morning gave him something to run from tonight. That one little grain of rice got through a crack, and he found that crack and walled it back up tight.


I think there is still a part of him that does love me but he's trying not to listen to that part...I don't know how to fight it when he is physically not here...he's gone again. Took the girls to spend the night with his mom and went to stay with his stepmom.


True. But after the first night he didn't come to bed, when he was headed to the couch again I told him there was no need for him to sleep on the couch and asked him to come to bed, and he ignored me. He77, if anyone deserves to be sleeping on the couch, it's me, not him.


I didn't mean it to come out focused on what I want/need from him...I definitely didn't choose my words well.


A little of both. There were times in the past (pre-A, all through our relationship)where he physically pushed me off him if I got too close or "touchy". Sometimes he'd act like he was kidding afterwards, like if he pushed me off the couch and onto the floor. He hasn't laid a hand on me like that lately, it's more like jerking away from my hand or physically getting up and moving away. And the demeanor doesn't help matters - absolutely no eye contact whatsoever. And it's stupid, I guess, but I just start to feel intimidated.



What do I do when he leaves the house like this?

I was back at work today and tried to show him I was thinking of him - texted him and asked him if he and the girls wanted to meet me for lunch. No, they were at his stepmom's. So, instead I went and picked up the paint for the girls' rooms (a project I am determined to carry out in the hopes of showing him I am committed to doing things in and around our home). Texted again later and asked what he wanted for dinner. No response, called the house and DD#1 answered the phone (need to sic her on telemarketers) and told her to get with DD#2 and H to decide what they'd like for dinner. Went and picked up dinner, we ate, and BOOM! they're all gone.

Self pity rant alert - I'm here, alone and miserable, and tonight I can't help but feel like this is most likely going to be what my life will end up like all because I played the whore for some lying rat turd who I wouldn't p*ss on now if he was on fire. I don't want to lose my H, I want him back...but there are times I just feel like dying.

Sorry. End of self-pity. I'm finding valerian root to be quite helpful in managing - or at least mitigating the symptoms of - the anxiety attacks, at least till I can get to the doc next week. Our whole situation feels like it's this catch-22 - maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like he needs to deal with his grief over his dad first before we can reengage in recovery...yet I feel helpless to help him deal with his grief because our M is still so damaged, yet if I'd never dropped that A-bomb and our M was healthy perhaps he'd be able to deal with his grief better...I just go in a circle.

HHH, what exactly does NeverGoBack do when she "puppy dogs" you? Would she take off to find you if you'd gone to, say, your stepmom's house? Or would he see that as desperate? Probably now since by the time I'd get there it'd be after 9 pm...but I could go in the morning, bearing coffee and doughnuts...

Sorry for the long post...

I haven't left the house overnight - I have the succinct feeling that if I were to try, she would find me - hunt me down.

She doesn't "confront" me, she doesn't push... well, not every time. She just does her best to be present - and pushes just enough to see if I am even willing to speak with her or even look at her. If I won't do either, she simply refuses to leave my side.

Persistence of presence I guess is her strategy.