Athena99,
I am no expert on this because I have had a marriage for 25 years and my husband sought out someone else to fill his needs, I wasn't great at doing that myself for the last couple of years before the affair, a lot of reasons I won't go into.....
But that act has left me feeling worth a little less than I used to, it has left me feeling I don't have promise anymore from my husband, the one I made to him in front of God and everyone else is gone and seems so unimportant now.........
It also makes me feel that someone else was more important than I was in my husband's eyes and now someone else holds a spot in my husband's heart.......all of this can't be changed it is part of my life because I chose to work on recovery of my marriage and my life................but it has changed me and how I feel about myself, I tell you this because I think that is just part of a BS. We know we weren't perfect and the WS has proven that someone else may have been better for a time at least, whether that was real or not it seems to us that it was..... hard to disgest and understand but we try........we try to push all our feelings under the rug to make sure the WS is forgiven.
Then we change everything about us so we don't put the WS in that position again.............a lot of work just getting our minds wrapped around all that.
All we want is peace and not have to think about our lives every minute and worry every minute that it could happen again.........
Calmness and peace is all I want now........
I just want my husband to be affectionate, thoughtful, understanding and just be involved in every part of my life..........I need to know I am all he thinks about and why all his decisions are made........
I want to hear he is sorry, I want to hear that he loves me, I want to have him want to plan things together and our life and future......
This is what he does for me and my response has been positive and loving, I think he sees now if he had only thought this way before we wouldn't be here today...............
He would be a hard man to walk away from now, you need to show your husband outside of what he is doing what you can do for him and how you can show him that your life is HIM. He will respond like I do............in a loving unbelieveably grateful woman.......he could easily have gone with the OW, someone he claimed he was in love with.........but somehow he made his way back to me in a different way than he was before the affair. He has totally changed, you can to..............it starts with you, one person can start this, slowly he will see the woman, the only woman that makes any difference to him.......

So I wonder what his motivation was? There is some O&H that is missing here. He HAS to have a reason for his inaction...no matter what it is, it couldn't be any worse than what you're THINKING it is, and finding out would help you both down the path. If it's simply "I was too weak/inadequate/paralyzed with fear/etc. etc. etc." at least you'd know what he was thinking, how it happened this way...and admitting one's shortcomings and working on them, I think, is a good step towards looking more attractive to women...

Right now, you're thinking "he didn't/doesn't care about me at all" and he's thinking "Oh my God I'm going to lose my wife again." There's a disconnect there.

The term "Learned Helplessness" comes to mind.

He acknowledged he felt "weak/inadequate/paralyzed with fear/etc. etc. etc." Which I understand, but only with respect to confronting me about it. What I don't understand is not seeking guidance or help in any other way and simply watching me continue on, waiting for me to "come around".

I get that he was terrified to force the issue and risk losing me. But sitting on the sidelines and pining away is a passive and unattractive quality that I don't know how to accept. I need to see it change. I don't want to be the only one affecting change in the marriage - I need a partner, not a bystander.


Yes, working on them is key. I don't need to hear self-deprecation as it is unattractive. I told him to set his sights on who he wants to be and start doing it. Which is also what I am doing for me.



Yes and yes. Not a disconnect, but just 2 valid ways to look at the same situation.

Hopefully, he has made a decision to not be a wuss anymore and to leave the conflict avoider approach behind. That is most certainly NOT attractive and will harm your marriage in the future. It is dishonesty like this that causes a lack of intimacy.

By the way, this is how everyone feels when faced with a crisis. It is not an excuse to avoid doing the right thing.

I couldn't agree more.

As a BH, however, I'm imagining back to when my extremely foggy wife was saying things like "I'm just not attracted to you anymore" and "I don't know if I ever was attracted to you" and "you're just not on my level anymore."

It didn't exactly imbue me with a desire to become a stronger, attractive man. A strong man would rise up against those words and prove them wrong, but a shattered man becomes even more demoralized.

I found the strength to change, but my WW had to change her thinking too. I resolved not to be a wuss...but she also resolved to remember that OM was a selfish man wrecking his own family, as well as hers. And she also resolved to find the things that she DID still find attractive about me and focus on those, as a way to help boost my wounded confidence a tad bit.

Athena, while being a wuss is horribly unattractive, surely there are other qualities about your H you still find attractive? Feelings follow actions, right?

The man has never had a marriage, never had a wife that respected him - only the illusion of it.

You wonder why he kind of sat there like a lump?

Athena, all you have handed him for 10 years is loss, and you think that he's going to magically turn around and be Superman?


It's also prevalent in depression and abuse.

The key?

Lots and lots of admiration for the efforts he makes, honest admiration.

Meeting emotional needs is the key to breaking this cycle of learned helplessness.

athena, I want to respectfully disagree with those posters who are leveling some pretty heavy 2x4s at you.

Sure, you're responsible for your affair. I did not see anywhere where you tried to lay the blame for your affair on your BH.

Sure, your BH was experiencing a very real trauma upon discovering his WW's A. Again, you do not discount that, nor dismiss it.

I think you have a legitimate need for your BH to be a partner in this M - as do many, if not all, of us here.

I think, as well, that your feelings upon your BH revealing this information to you (kudos to him for telling you, even if it is now rather than then) are absolutely normal. I think the negative ones may be exacerbated by any fond thoughts of OM (read up on absolute NC for life, maybe), but they are legitimate nonetheless.

You seem to be approaching this the right way, though I will echo what many are saying in cautioning you to keep the perspective that you have, that you are the WS who brought much of this on the M in the first place.

Do you two counsel w/ the Harleys? Could you call in to the radio show and ask for Dr. Harley's take on this? I'm sure he will echo what many here have said re: your BH's trauma/shock response, but the good doctor seems to have a great way of phrasing things and coming up with a plan where needed.

Actually - subtly she is laying blame for the LENGTH of the affair at his feet. she's angry because he didn't fight for her/for the marriage.

Actually - I watched my mother do the same thing to my dad. Systematically demasculinized him for years; she has a quick wit - dad was physically abusive and she found her own way to get back at him. Socially. She was popular and well accepted. Dad was shy and reserved in public. I saw the process behind closed doors. And when my dad continued nurturing his relationship with alcohol to sooth his wounds, she found comfort with another man.

Athena - I don't say this to be cruel... There is more going on between you and your husband than an affair. You have to ask yourself - how have you contributed to your husband's loss of manhood. Because strong women have a habit of ignoring the damage our strength can do. I'm not saying you have to become weak. But in order for your marriage to thrive, you both have to become strong and supportive of each other's strengths.

Find a way through this. I'd recommend the book "Wild At Heart" - it's written for men, but women who want a strong man need to read it.

I have been acting while waiting for the feelings to kick in. Of course, then BH thinks I am just faking it. I am damned if I do and damned if I don't. He can't handle the truth so I avoid telling him. I am not attracted to him physically and he doesn't want to hear it. I keep "faking" it hoping it will eventually kick in.

I have made a lot of improvements - I can cuddle on the couch, hold his hand, or snuggle in bed without feeling uncomfortable. But anything beyond that takes a lot of effort for me. My body can enjoy sex, but my heart and my emotional attachment are not there. And I miss that part the most.

Sorry, nope. I wouldn't have expected him to confront me. That is not in his nature. What bothers and disappoints me most is that he didn't do anything at all - no googling resources to help, no counselling, no confiding in anyone. Just sat back and waited. My interpretation is that it wasn't worth the effort to bother.



I do agree with you - I have not done anything to help deal with the low self-esteem he has had all of his life. I knew he had confidence issues when I married him and I guess I didn't realize what I was committing to at the time. I made the promise and I will try to honor it as best I can.

Thanks for the book referral - I will look into it.

I am struggling with my lack of committment. As KaylaAndy's signature block says:


I don't want him bad enough. I am fine with being friendly, but I don't WANT him. I don't need carnal, animal lust. I'm not looking for that "newness" or "danger". I want what I felt I had with OM. Something comfortable and safe with I man I am attracted to and am emotionally attached to.

I am not there with BH and am getting scared that "feelings follow action" isn't going to happen. BH seemed annoyed that I was still doing "feelings follow action", which he considers "faking" it. I told him that not faking it implies that everything is going very well and we are healed - something that doesn't happen in 4 months.

However, we've been spending our time together and I'm making myself be intimate with him, but I don't feel any closer. We spent the weekend together and I was trying to tell myself and him that I was happy, but I wasn't. We had fun and it was nice to spend time together, but I felt pressure and was uncomfortable with sex. I don't enjoy it with him and that makes me very sad. I don't think I care about him enough to overlook all the things that make the experience unpleasant for me.

How do I get off of this fence and commit when I don't see him meeting an important need of mine effectively ... ever?

<edited to add this part>
I also don't know if I can meet his needs for anything sexual and that isn't fair to him.

Do you think that it is possible to learn to meet that need?

You didn't have anything "safe" with that woman's husband. He dumped you for his wife, remember? Nothing safe about affairs.

You need to KEEP UP the UA time and stop cutting corners. And I know you are cutting corners, so don't try and tell me you aren't. You are doing the program in a half assed way and then complaining it doesn't work. It takes 20+ hours of undivided attention time meeting the top 4 intimate needs. Consistently. EVERY WEEK. Not just sometimes. Not 5 hours this week and then 6 the next, etc, etc, etc. 20+ hours per week of UA CONSISTENTLY is what it takes to fall in love.

If you guys can't follow this program strictly, then why not sign up for the online program so you have a personal coach who will keep you on track and motivated?



Tell him that developing new habits feels awkward and "faked" at first. That is part of creating new habits.

You are right, we aren't getting the 20+ hours in. Neither of us is committed to this. I am not attracted and he has shown that he is waiting for me to fix it.

It may just be excuses but:
- the kids are in activities and get to sleep between 8:30 and 9 on a consistent basis
- my antidepressants wipe me right out and I am usually not far behind them (in consultation with my dr, I am weaning myself off of them in the hopes of regaining some energy)
- I need to get up at 5am to get through the morning routine and to work on time so I can leave early enough to be home to meet the kids when they get off the bus (we don't have after school care)
- we have been lazy and still haven't found a babysitter, so we haven't been able to get out of the house much

One would think that the desire to keep the marriage would trump EVERYTHING standing in the way of getting the 20+ hours. I am still on the fence and not comitted. I can't work up the desire to put in the time, but how do I work up the desire without spending the time - chicken and egg.

I am frustrated with myself for not putting in the time, but am also feeling like BH is the one who wants it more right now and even he isn't doing anything to facilitate time together.

This all sounds foggy still - how can that be after 4 months of NC? Nobody at work brings up OM's name anymore, but I still have flashbacks or thoughts of him every day. I know he has moved on and he will never be in my life again, but I recall memories with fondness. I want those same feelings again and feel I won't get them with BH.

That sounds pretty normal. And yours was a long term affair so it might take longer.

Ok, what are you going to do about getting in this UA time? You can't complain that this is not working if you don't work it, Athena. This does work, you just have to do it. You have to make it happen. It is not going to happen by magic.


And what are you doing to find a babysitter?

You're getting great advice from people who are much further along in this process than I am, but this particular point I can speak to.

This is completely normal. It happened to me for a long time. I thought about the OM everyday and still had those feelings for a long time. My situation was complicated by the fact that I had an OC as a constant reminder of the OM.

But it does get better. A year and a half into NC, I rarely think about the OM anymore. When I do think about him, the feelings just aren't there at all. I can honestly say that I don't have any feelings for him at all at this point. I don't miss having him in my life.

It does take time, but you will get there. I wasn't sure at first either, but eventually those feelings did fade.

My need is for sexual fulfillment. Right now, it is not the way I want it. I am not physically attracted to him and that is an important thing for me.

I feel selfish and shallow. But in order for him to meet that need, he needs to make a lot of changes. Changes that I don't think I have the right to request and even wonder if they will really make a difference. I have suggested on a number of occasions that he start exercising (for his own health as well as my attraction to him), but he brushes it off and says he doesn't like working out.

I don't like the way he kisses - it feels sloppy to me. I don't like his body, his sexual stamina, the wimpy way he looks at me. I feel like a horrible person saying this, but I can't keep these thoughts in and pretend I am not thinking them.

I don't think UA alone is going to magically fix all of this. Even my dr said I need to address and work through these issues and not just move on thinking they will work themselves out because we are spending time together.

I am not committed to UA and need to find something that gets me through this ambivalence so that the UA is palatable.

What other things can I be doing since the UA doesn't seem to be working for me? Surely it can't be one-size-fits-all and there are other methods to help gain some clarity so the rest of the program can be implemented.

As Mel mentioned, you had a very long A, and you have this really way of bringing up the OM.

Right out of the box; have you destroyed every memento you have of your invasion of another woman's marriage? Not a single trinket, if you stuck a piece of gum you were chewing the last time you saw the OM under your kitchen table, burn the dang table.

You aren't out of withdrawal - and you aren't taking your prescription as prescribed. EVERYONE here (WS and BS) will tell you that things go to s#!+ when UA time is not met.

Also; how about answering the earlier question about what qualities your husband has that you do love?

How about endurance?