How are things going?

Pretty good tonight. Very happy to see me after work.

Stretch - that's great news!

She was very sad and depressed last night. Tons of crying. I listened and listened. Am still at a loss for what to do. I want to make her feel better. But sometimes you can't. I also need to share some of my feelings. But life and kids, family, friends make her feel overwhelmed right now. I don't want to push my needs too.

This morning she said a major period came. That's some explanation. But I said, I do not want to dismiss your feelings of sadness and depression because of your period. Old version insensitive hubby would do that. That just intensified things. But the sadness is very real.

I believe so much comfort zone is changing. Beliefs about self and friends and husband are shattering. Its vulnerable and scary to her.

Stretch, are you two at a stage where you can have the first (of probably many) "What EXACTLY did he do for you that I was not doing for you?" talks.

The reason I ask is that it strikes me that much of the recovering WW roller coaster is brought about by stimulii that require action/attention by the WW that she had the option of addressing with OM, and though that avenue may be closed, has not yet been replaced by an avenue though BH.

This was certainly the case in my WW's recovery. POSOM was an experienced "mentor" where she worked, and (giving the scumball-now-with-the-devil his due) had often assisted her (and others) with guidance. When her access to him was cut off, there was a period of re-orientation regarding seeking consult and advice from other sources. I was not employed in the same field, so was of little concrete aid here. BUT, I soon learned to listen, comfort, and support her while she made a new path for herself.

The payoff to this was she saw HOW I changed my attention to her, knew it was important for US to be the primary team, and signed on all the more strongly to our new life.

PROBLEMS are OPPORTUNITIES not yet realized.

A balancing act, but it sounds like you're doing good if you can just listen and she feels safe enough to talk to you.

Hopefully, she'll start asking you to tell her how you're doing. Today, my WW asked me if I regretted staying with her. Wow, just turned a new page in the potential dialogs.

Oh my goodness NW. That is a big question.
Following your dramatic thread this past weekend, that is some openess.

My wife stated within the past couple weeks that she is making an intentional shift to stop building her case "against" me and building the case "for" me. She is trying harder to lift her fog.

Part of being so sad last night was:
1) Falling so in love with the puppy made her realize how long that feeling had been missing. She was sad her heart has been so closed.
2) She doesn't feel like an open & honest person, even with her close support network. She feels like she tells people what they want to hear and doesn't know the genuine self.
3) She has isolated herself and gone back to "food therapy."
4) I was gone three nights for work travel this week. Tu, We, Fr. She found that hard. (A good sign? Did she miss me? Did she think about what Plan B would be like?)

This morning was better. We had a good time in church. I flipped pancakes for the youth group at 7:45AM (which is really early for us. We are NOT morning people)

She is out with her friends this afternoon and I have six kids now (our 4 plus two friends) I do get nervous when she sees her friends still. I am wrong for doing so. But I wonder what kind of crooked advice they give her. Supposedly they support the marriage now, but they certainly did not when they aided her A. And she tells them her version of the Stretch & Wife story -- which is rarely generous or fair to my perspective.

I get so pained when she is with them. I am told not to worry about it. Also, we agreed (me, her, MC) that it was up to me now to ask to repair things with them. So I have to stop worrying and complaining. We have an agreed plan, that is, I need to work on rebuilding with her friends and not rely on wife to be in the middle.

Dunno, Stretch--the thing with her friends seems a little off. I'd say she should step up a bit there, or at least the two of you tell her friends the "real" story, good and bad.

You're being distressed over them isn't helping, you know.

I talked to her sister one day for almost an hour. My wife admitted to a funny feeling when she saw her sister again. That is, like she lost someone who was "on her side."

I suggested, and have suggested more than once, that I want us to be in this together. That I desire all our friends and family to be on "our" side. That we would like them all to be on the side of our M.

I don't think she can accept that right now. She nods and goes silent at that idea. Her circle of trusting friends have been separated from me and our M forever. They predate me. They have been together through high school and college boyfriends. They have been together through all their extramarital affairs. There is some sacred sister bond. And I feel belittled and patronized for trying to understand and be open/honest and trusting with my wife like they supposedly are. But she admits, she has for a long time not been her real self even with those sacred sisters. Its so confusing.

I believe, and I think the articles and professionals back this up and our marriage weekend retreat backs this up, that we need people around us who are "for" the marriage -- who are not on "my side" / "your side". I think she still has people lined up on sides. And arguments building / ammunition building. Looking for friends or whoever to validate her stories and ammunition.

I don't know if she comes back from friends or therapy feeling better or worse. Feeling validated that her BH is still some kind of monster.

I think that with her in "love limbo" and uncommitted to the M I am quite naturally entitled to have all these insecurities about trust and fears.

Hey stretch, hope things are going well. I may be imagining things, but did you mention somewhere about a money-argument with your wife re: counseling?

No money arguments.

In our early counselling... back in early 2010, I was resistant. I complained about finances a bunch. Counselling seemed silly to me. I would pull out the "waste of money" argument and also the, "how can I take so much time off from work in the middle of the day." argument all the time.

But we only pay $25 copay each time. So fast forward to today, we are in counselling constantly. For me to be in 3 sessions a week is not unusual.

I see my PC every week.
We see the MC together every week.
She sees her PC every other week.

There were times when I saw my PC 2 or 3 times in a week.

Her EA ended in Nov 2009. She started trying to recommit to the marriage (this is all my hindsight mind you... it's certainly does feel like the world is honest with you again when you can look back and understand what was happening to your life!) And we started counselling in March 2010. But it was terrible. She was being false, I was being resistant and cranky. The counsellor sucked. He knew her PC as a friend, so everyone knew about her A except me. She went back to see OM in the park in Aug 2010 and continued right up until DDay to write him emails (that he never answered.)

I got a lightning bolt in late August 2010. (Or maybe she gave me a 2x4)
And then I got my own therapist, read ten books, worked on everything, tried to apply all the learnings, changed as much about myself as I could, started meds too. Money was no object in my mind anymore. Our debt is crawling up quite a bit but I don't care. Finances and debt still concern me, it would make me feel ill if I chose to let it, but I choose not to. I just stopped complaining and worrying and making her feel bad. If we can save the marriage we will find a way together.

So anyway, by January, I knew something was still holding us back. So I snooped and well... go back to page 1 of this thread for the rest of the story...

Money is no problem right now. I don't care what we spend on our marriage work.

I must have gotten your thread confused then--went back and couldn't find the one I was thinking of so...maybe I imagined it? Who knows

We're slowing scaling back the MC more out of financial necessity than anything else. We've been going since July 2010 and it's adding up fast. But that's ok, it's worth it.

Cheaper than lawyers!

So I know I have been quiet. I guess I am settling into a more even keel emotional state. The exercise program is great. Its good to be working more effectively. I had three business trips in the past two weeks without a brutally painful feeling of separation anxiety.

MC today should be interesting. I dk what we'll discuss.

I am trying to slow down the pace and back off. My wife is definitely depressed. Very depressed. But in my opinion she is trying to work on that without just blaming her M. Asking herself about her diet and way of thinking and reacting to everything and about her plans for getting her writing work done. It doesn't have to do with me. I just ask what support she needs. I am very much on the lookout for any way possible that I can get in the way or be set up as the foil.

I am giving her space. I like lots of affection. Lots of hugs and kisses all day. But she has asked me to step back. So I have. (Its not perfect... I am denying my #1 EN to some extent and it hurts. SO I will explore that in MC today possibly)

By meeting her top EN's as much as possible, I should receive mine back in return.

I am trying to be much more focused on the children. Really kicked up my DS big time, but also paying attention to FC needs of the children. We had a great Easter weekend. I dyed the eggs / made the easter baskets / took my oldest son to a spring football game and encouraged him to bring a friend. Enjoyed church on Friday and Sunday with my wife. I even entertained joining mens choir. (That's scary to me!) Engaged with kids in conversation about their interests as much as possible. I don't watch any sports or TV anymore. Hardly at all. They are really distracting and compete for my attention to family. I am happy to choose hard core exercise for myself 1+ hr a day and skip any TV sports.

Wife is so up and down. I don't know where her head is at so much of the time. But I am giving her space. Less hugging, less touching, less forcing and pushing the marriage conversations.

She got really upset and depressed Saturday. It had to do with facing my sister and BIL. They dropped off cousins to play with our kids. Its kinda cold around them. There will need to be repair and recovery sometime down the line. But she falls apart. My sister and BIL are upset with her. That's just the truth. I have told them to keep it to themselves. There are olive branches back and forth. But its not about them right now. I know they are angry and hurt. And the pathology of each marriage and A situation is different. It can be so confusing to outsiders. I insist that we stay together in the face of outsiders. I keep telling her we are in this together. I wish there to be no people on "my side / your side" But reality is that people are taking sides naturally.

Well.... there is a lot going on... but going on slowly. I'd like to share more later today after MC session.

MC was hard today. She cried a ton. She just feels sad and depressed. Her filter against me is strong. I think so. MC thinks so too. Everything I say and do goes through a filter and she hears it or sees it a certain way -- usually unflattering or assuming or projecting the worst motivations upon me.

Late this afternoon she said, "I am trying to figure out why I won't let you in.... why I can't see all the work you've done... all your changes... why I won't or don't want to see you. Basically, how much of my stories are real and how much is made up."

Lots of BH monstrification. But I was pointed when I replied, "Hey, you don't need to swing all the way over and blame yourself. You have complaints in this M that are valid. You have insights into me that are often spot on and accurate and I appreciate those." I am afraid now her MO would be to get depressed that her way of thinking is all broken. She has valid problems with H. I am working really hard and I am totally devoted and in love. I WANT and DESIRE to make my conversations and interactions filled with love and fulfilling to her -- I am devoted to die trying. That's something, isn't it?!

But basically, yeah, it hurts that it seems like everything I say or do goes through a filter that projects the worst motivations upon me. That assumes I am manipulating, or trying to hurt her or have a false agenda. To me, I believe she is fighting me... fighting falling in love... fighting to be proven right and to avoid feeling like the EA was all wrong.... more importantly, fighting to avoid feeling like she was wrong for taking of the ring and thinking about D and leaving the M.

Who cares anymore? That's over. Let's move forward. So what if her actions were wrong? Blame her boundaries. Make some changes, some EP, institute POJA and work on build romantic love. No one can go backwards and control what was said or done in the past.

I just want her to love me now, and accept me now.

Also, I am sure she is struggling with depression and its hard to face that the cause of the depression isn't all sourced back to the M. She is depressed without me or with me; with the Stretch 1.0 neglectful husband and with the Stretch 2.0 awake and aware husband. The depression is hers to work through. Thankfully, she has a loving and devoted man to support her.

But getting rid of H and M is no quick fix to these very real and painful depression feelings. I haven't brought it up like that. But its what I am starting to believe is the BIG TRUTH / BIG LIE she is struggling to confront. i.e her depression will remain even with a wonderful devoted and loving Stretch 2.0. Which means she needs to look elsewhere for solutions.

Anything in particular that you're saying that she's misinterpreting?

Refresh my memory, are you still using a keylogger/cell phone spyware? Just wondering if there's some kind of trigger that keeps knocking her around.

This is a long road Stretch, you had some good progress early on but recovery isn't a straight line.

Two years buddy, two years...

Misinterpret my words. Examples:

Her: "Conversation with you is difficult because you have a bad habit of interrupting."

Me: "I know this about myself. You are right. I am sorry. I get that feedback all the time and keep trying to work on it. Everyone I work with knows I have this problem."

Three days later... Her: "You basically said, Yup, I interupt people. That's just me. Just accept the fact that that is who I am. I don't have to change."

Another:

Me: I am growing a goatee. Does that make me a walking cliche. 40 yr old, mid-life crisis guy.

Her interpretation: You just need to belong to some group or another. You are desperate to latch onto some identity.

More:

Her: "You are trying to align your sister against me."
"You work really hard on your impression management. When my family is over and you are a great host, you are working on impression management."
"You expect me to grovel and crawl on my knees begging for forgiveness."
"I can't be sad or angry or any other emotion. You just insist that I am happy all the time."
"I cannot criticize you ever! You just want me to praise, praise, praise you all the time."
"All your crying and hyperventilating and sleeping on the floor was such a manipulation."
"You have a fierce determination to punish me and my friends."
"You will hold this against me for the rest of my life. I know this to be true. I know you too well."
"You said that because you wanted to hurt me."

What a bunch of fogbabble baloney.

Ignore it, don't acknowledge it, and keep chugging Plan A.

ARRRGH !!!!!

She wrote OM an email last night. DAMN!

OK. SOme background. She admits that she continues to have this urge. She admits that she has wanted to write him an email every few weeks and he has never responded. He never called her or wrote back to her during the EA. That's why she had to go stalk him basically at the bar where he was playing.

After exposure day, she said, "I cannot promise to not write him an email. I have this ridiculous urge. And I can't make it stop."

I have no evidence of contact since exposure day. But who knows.

I just know that last night she wrote him a silly email.

Here it is: "Song is on the radio as I sit in a parking lot...can't help but think of you. Hope you are well...kids and I are fine...enjoying a new puppy"

My personal therapist said today, that I really am close to giving her a Plan B message. Its been 2 1/2 months for the fog to clear. She resists me. She is fighting coming back to me. She admitted that yesterday afternoon. She cannot be open and honest with me obviously. My PC said that pretty soon I have to tell her, "I cannot be married like this. No commitment. You holding a fantasy of some other man. No ring."

ARRGGHHH!! I am remarkably well composed. The drugs work. The exercise works. The therapy works. The forum here works. I am gonna be okay. I don't think she realizes that she is close to losing me. My heart is so broken. But she might lose me. And my heart will be forever broken. Our poor children too.