Niitse, it is something else. Hard to verbalize.

He is not on board with the total transparency concept. There either is trust or there isn't. If there is not, then everything else has no meaning; it is impossible to account for each and every step, there is no way of knowing if there is a secret cell phone or two, no way of shadowing one another 24/7. No trust means breaking up sooner or later.

I know this is not what MB is about. I see the MB POV. Sad thing is, I also see his POV - and he is unlikely to change it.

So in a way, I am afraid of the consequences if I find nothing. Would this restore my trust? Most probably, this will ruin the relationship for him.

I found out that I actually have the possibility to get the cell records. But based on his last month's phone bill overview (43 call minutes in total, 1 SMS), I decided not to go that line today. (I am quite aware of your reactions to my decision.) The possibility remains there, should I review my decision.

Now I also know the reason for his detachment and everything makes more sense. Even though I thought he was fine, inside he has not recovered from my A and, according to his words, might not do so for the next 10 years. (His words were more or less "hopefully I'll get past this 10 years from now".) I am glad he finally expressed himself; I had had no idea that it was that bad. No wonder he is clammed shut.

A bleak future, is it not? He wants to stay with me, but is not ready to be one with me. If I knew with certainty it really would be so, I would doubt that staying married on those terms was a good idea. But I still have hope that he will change his mind.

He agreed to going through the MB stuff (ENQ-s, UA etc), but at the moment he does not see any actual use for him, just more and more work; "whatever, if you are happy with it", he says. He does not believe in the possibility of falling in love again. Luckily, he is ok with being dragged through the motions... perhaps this will change the situation even though he doesn't believe it? It seems like our actions these past months have only been effective in restoring my love for him, but not very much in restoring his feelings for me. How long will I have the strength to drag us along? Is 10 years a reasonable period? At the moment, I think I am ready for it.

I wish I could get him here. I wish he gave me more pointers as to what I can do to help him. He doesn't seem to believe that there is anything I can do more. His ENQ shows more satisfaction than mine, yet he is not happy.

Time to read through WPG-s thread again...

Niitse: did you two experience any difficulties in applying MB due to the cultural differences (between us and the US, birth country of MB)? Do you think this is relevant at all? Sometimes it seems that DH refers to those differences, sometimes he says it is more of a female stuff... Basically nothing in it for him.

Also, are there any alternative emotional needs?

Many thanks, HHH! I'll show him the thread you linked (I remember now having read it when you wrote it... It probably stayed lingering in my subconscience) - to show him I am not totally ungrounded in my suspicions. We'll discuss it.

Sparkler, the instances of spouses who become miserable when the other spouse refuses to move on this board pop up quite often. There have been quite a few just in my short time here.

There is really only one thing that they all have in common; usually in those cases, the spouse that is here and "doing the work," is doing so half-assed, and piss-poor.

It's a real trick to learn to integrate this whole thing, but that is what has to be done. If the M is to survive infidelity, it HAS to be better, stronger, more honest than it was before infidelity occurred.

The hope, trust, and innocence that was once a foundation of the marriage has been irreparably damaged. Like a shattered hip or blown knee, it just isn't ever going to be the same. It can be better, but that is because you have to learn not to rely on that support any more, and must strengthen everything around the injury to take up the slack.


If he is only getting half on board, then you have to be 300% on board.


Step one is always going to be examining UA time - what can you do to increase that time? What activities can you engage in that are mutually enjoyable?

I have run out of time for now, but I have already planned filling REI today evening (after discussing our ENQ-s made yesterday).

The last time we filled REI was not very successful - as fas as I remember, there was no activity that he rated higher than 1... and most of the ratings were negative.

He likes being on his computer or reading... So we have played some games together (not very successfully) and done comp-based puzzles together (more successfully). We cannot read together due to difference in reading speed.

One reason for me doing the MB stuff half-assed is his reluctance. I would like him to enjoy it. But it is probably counter-intuitive - his attitude will change only after being in it fully, not the other way around. So this intial phase of reluctance has to be disregarded. Right?

What kind of thinker are you? Are you self-oriented, or task oriented?

When you have your EN/LB questionnaires done, formulate a plan, and write out a mission statement;

I will, for the next (X) months/weeks/days strive to avoid LB's A, B, C. I will strive to meet EN's A, B, C. We will engage in RC A, B, C at least (X) times per week/month. I will do so regardless of my spouse's response for the determined amount of time, after which we will review and replan the next period of time.

The only caveat to this is that if there is a budding EA...then you will just be banging your head against a wall, Sparkler.

IF MB was of European origin or even our origin, would your H be on board? I think you know the answer.

The whole point is implementing the MB program in full, being open and honest voluntarily. Even if it is just you doing it. Don't do it half-[censored], it will backfire.

We have been MB:ers 2 years for now. Recovering from an affair is very individual. My H still has some low points, the last one was last Saturday, but I already know how to handle them and I'm not panicking anymore, neither does he. It is good that your H opens up and talks about your M, it is definitely not good that he is not eager to be transparent. The reasons you have to find out.

Building a new marriage is a difficult job, it doesn't matter whether you do it in a societies where "I love you" is said on awfully rare occasions or in ones where it is an everyday phrase. It only feels good and is true when it has its true components.

How do you state that some of the principles are not the subject of POJA? E.g. O&H - who gets to say what is the appropriate level of O&H? We had a discussion on our ENQs, O&H was the hardest part. It is exactly as I described before: for him, it is the matter of trust. He does. not. want to check on me. All my being as open and transparent to him as possible has apparently fallen on deaf ears, so to speak. It has done nothing at all to increase my trustworthiness in his eyes. (Btw, is it supposed to in our scenario?)

If I could turn back time...

Well, let's see. Looking at your sig we have; 4(?) D-days. You trickle truthed the hell out of the guy, and you are less than a year from the last revelation.

So, yeah, your transparency might be falling on deaf ears right now.

However, it's still not in his best interest to not check on you.

Didn't work before, did it?

It also sounds like you translate this as a total lack of interest in you, and that is relevant.

Continue on. It's a new habit, new behavior. That takes time to adjust to.

I am really concerned that your WS guilt (or maybe you are being gaslit?) is playing into your decision making at this point. Your H's SSL has nothing to do with your A and it seems you are comingling the two issues.

Have you thought of emailing the Harleys/calling into their radio show? They are super nice and easy to talk to.

I don't know, I looked for related tests, but didn't find any. What are the criteria? In the dichotomy between process and result, I am a result-oriented person. Self versus others - I have done quite much sacrificing in my life, so every once in a while, my Taker steps in. I have been balancing it consciously since last summer.


I had sth like that in mind, thanks for verbalizing it for me.


I know...


Open and honest voluntarily - this is what I have been doing this far for the whole time since July. (He has not seen the last three pages of this thread, though - but he could if he wanted to.)

This half-assedness is somewhere else. Mutually enjoyable UA-time is most probably the key. Enjoyable time for him is time for himself.


Ok, so I hope that the inability for us to be one is not as final as he seems to feel. Of course I have read the recovery usually takes a couple of years at least, but based on our everydaylife this far, I would have not thought that he is still suffering so much. So panicking is a good word to describe me.

He has actually never been transparent (I would even say "to anyone", including his parents and siblings). It doesn't mean he has always had a SSL; it is more like his whole life is more or less secret and even I have always had just the upper layer of it. It was fascinating when we met, now it is sad.


Yep, I know that this is one of the major problems here. I just wish I had MB-knowledge around the 1st D-day, that I had recognized 'falling in love' with OM for the addiction it was and taken appropriate measures.

The two last D-days were not intended as trickling; I thought I gave him the opportunity to get the information at his own pace but realized too late that he would not ask so I'd have to spill my guts myself. Of course, looking back it was trickling all right.


I agree, but he does not and has stated it several times.
I have let him know that even though he does not check, I am a) acting as if he does check (hm... that might translate into going underground... which I am not - but again, he claims that you can never snoop to be 100% sure, so it is pointless from the beginning), and b) fully ready and glad to disclose any information should he ask for it.

True.

The WS guilt thing is also true.
The SSL I discussed previously.
It is more like a personality disorder, so to say.
Plus - even if I separate the issues, he combines them.

The thought has actually been on my mind lately; I have listened to a great deal of radio shows and separate segments (while I should be writing my thesis... but our marriage definitely is more important, at least to me). I don't have my question formulated yet. Perhaps it should be sth like "how to get him on board with the principles".


We discussed a bit of boundaries yesterday. He is bitter that even though I was the wayward one, he would have to apply the EPs as well (I showed mine to him a couple of weeks ago and said they, or something like that should apply to both; he "shut down" and refused to discuss them). I told him about the contrast effect and possible RAs (thanks again, HHH) and asked what would he do when someone approaches him, pays him attention etc. He said he hated people in general too much to go along with the proposal. (And he does, that is true.) So I asked if this was the only boundary he has. No answer. I didn't push it any more but I hope it made him think... Don't know for sure.

Funny, O&H is very high on his EN list as well... But we define it so differently.

He wrote down everything he did yesterday in order to give me a thorough account of his day. He proposed to bring his work computer home for weekend so I can look around. So why do I feel he is more like ridiculing the whole O&H idea (as understood by me)?

I'll continue to keep my side of the fence clean - fulfilling his needs for DS, SF, AS, O&H; being optimistic and supportive; POJAing decisions (or, if he is not interested, at least think how he would feel); organizing UA time, but giving him his private time (at home) as well.

And I think we should go to a couple therapy.

Plus he should probably be tested for depression and treated. (He went to a psych last year - they assumed his problem can be solved with a couple therapy, no medications needed. I am not that sure of that. But we didn't go, either.)

OK, I have calmed down a bit - we have calmed down. The initial panic has developed into readiness for action and recognition that this 2+ years applies to us too and it is not necessarily the end of the world, as long as we do the work. Thank you all.

I was reading through another thread and one post caught my eye.


I wonder where the line is drawn. What are the things that may/should be skipped when disliked and what are those that are strongly advised to be learned? Are the four essential needs (SF, Aff, Conv, RC) outside the scope of POJA? Because I would say that DH more or less dislikes both conversation and affection; he has stated that he forces himself to do them.

Or, hm, is it just the difference between needs and strategies? As in - the need (eg affection) has to be fulfilled but the method/strategy (PDA, gifts, hugs, occasional touches, kisses, tender words etc etc) have to be POJA'd? What if none of the methods that one spouse suggests are not enthusiastically accepted by the other?

This is not a frustrated cryout, but rather a pondering... And I am optimistic that this will change with enough UA, he will get used to it and finally not be reluctant... but what if it is not right to impose such-and-such behaviour on him, based on the quote from ML?

Luckily for me, he agrees with walking hand in hand:)

Would you believe me if I told you that hand-holding is the entire foundation of FWW and I's emotional recovery?

It is something that can seem so, so small. It was something are palms would sweat about when we were young... the first time you held someone's hand.

You do so out of fear; grasp the hand of the person you are with so that you can face whatever might come together.

After an amount of time, it can seem insignificant.

And then... then I watched an old woman at work who spent her afternoons down at the memory care portion of our facility, spend all day sitting next to her husband while he slept all day. And she just sat there, and held his hand.

The man she married all those years ago had been lost to dementia, and she was clinging to what she had left, just one little gesture that I had allowed to become so insignificant to me.

The little things.


The little things are huge.

Sparkler, I've never posted to you before but I've found your thread to be very enlightening. I would say my H has always been the same - dislikes conversation and affection.


I'd say the strategies - HOW we fulfill each others' needs - that is what we POJA. We can't POJA having a need - we either have a high need for affection (etc) or we don't. I have always had a high need for affection. For me, I didn't necessarily want graphic displays of PDA, but I wanted to hold hands, I wanted H to put his arm around me, I wanted to be able to cuddle up to him on the couch, or come up and give him a hug. Not knowing MB, of course, I never tried to POJA how I'd like my need for affection met, and since he did not enjoy me touching him he would push me away if I got too close. Pre-A, we limped along, me feeling rejected and unloved and (at the risk of making a DJ) him feeling annoyed by me being all touchy-feely.

So maybe POJA-ing how you'd like your need for affection met can start as simply as if he holds your hand walking from the car to the restaurant or wherever, making sure he knows that you enjoy it ("I love it when you hold my hand...it makes me feel so..."). Encourage and appreciate the small gestures, and I bet the appreciation will go a long way towards filling his LB$ as well.

Not much advice, Sparkler, 'cause if you read my thread you know I am a total screw-up at this recovery thing, but just wanted to offer my support!

You can get everything right, and it ain't gonna work if your BH ain't on board.

KNOCK IT OFF!

(((WPG)))

Thank you, WPG... I have followed your thread from the beginning and I really feel for you. Thanks for your encouraging words.

Yeah, thinking back I guess I have been concentrating too much on what I don't get and less on what I actually get. Change of viewpoints is in order.

twoxfour to myself :P (edit: how do you insert that smiley? copy-pasting image doesn't seem to work...)

Feeling rejected and unloved - I can so totally relate. And yet I bet our DHs did not perceive or intend it that way at all.

I would hazard a guess that you're right on that one. My H has since said that he thought he was doing exactly what he was supposed to do to be a good husband - he went to work, he didn't go off in the evenings or weekends to do his own thing or hang out w/friends, when I wanted to go back to work he stepped up and changed his work schedule so he could cook dinner for us and take care of the kids, etc.

Couple of things - one, for my part - and I'm guessing you were like me on this, Sparkler - we weren't being O&H about what we wanted/needed from the beginning. See, I thought I was...but all I could do was give him vague complaints like, "I'm not happy..." "I think we should go to counseling..." If I could have articulated my feelings - no, my needs - better years ago, who knows how things would be now?

Two, if you've ever read the Five Love Languages, I realize now that H and I speak different love languages. His seemed to be acts of service, while mine were words of affirmation and physical touch. We each tried to show love to the other in the way WE wanted to receive it, not the way that spoke to the other, and only after the sh*tstorm I created do I realize that.



yeah, I know, I know...just been a bumpy week!

PS, Sparkler, you can find the 2X4 smiley on the "Full Reply" screen!

WPG, you know - we and our DHs are so similar. I sign everything you said in your post.

Even the bumpy week stuff

Except for one thing... I think I have been speaking his love language of service quite from the beginning (probably not all the time, but occasionally), but it was often in the form of sacrifice and I still failed to communicate my needs and feelings. So all in all it was counterproductive.

Disclaimer: I haven't read the five languages book, but I read the overview somewhere.

And I discovered how to do without full screen - I forgot to put the colons.

You are not an MB failure, WPG. You are not. And I don't seem to remember seeing any D being final.

Seem to remember somewhere Dr. Harley telling one of the letter writers to even continue attempting to promote recovery up to two years AFTER a divorce was final.

For some reason, you seem like a person who could pursue that, because the goal has that much meaning to you.

Anyway, WPG, Sparkler - remember that a huge portion of this all is personal recovery; becoming the spouse that you should have been, want to be, and can be.

And if you know that you follow that unwaveringly, to the letter, and things still don't' turn out as they should, that you are not a failure.

Meet EN's, avoid LB's, and lead the way. Be the light.


Heads up, ladies.

Just a short vent - I really hope my DH is suffering from depression.

Otherwise his statement of the day before "I pondered about my life and questioned myself whether I have got anything out of this marriage at all" (or sth like that, I suck at remembering exact words) would mean there is nothing to be done and he just is not a family person. He basically wants to avoid loneliness during senior years, but is not sure that it is worth the trouble.

I am not losing hope, though. Keeping my side clean. (being deliberately more open and honest than fits his comfort zone, for instance - hopefully he gets used to it)

Oh well. Trying to set up an appointment for him (on Friday it was too late, couldn't get the call through). I hope to find a psychiatrist and couple therapist in one person. I listened to MB radio segments on depression and I think his is not situational (i.e. not directly because of my affair, though it definitely affected him very negatively), but endogenous - going back basically as far as I can remember, now that I think about the symptoms. The last psych he went to (last autumn or sth) was on the opinion that couple therapy would solve everything, I am not that sure.

Just talking aloud to myself here.