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Nice evening right now! My wife kissed me on the lips I enjoyed it very much! smile


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Fight again! Just kidding, believe it or not we are sitting side by side playing a game on our iPhones together. It's coming together I think, hope.


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Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Originally Posted By: Hilltopper1972
Originally Posted By: kilted_thrower
Originally Posted By: Hilltopper1972

I stand corrected, no attempts just action. Thanks Kilt! I assume you're more fellow Scot?


A bit. I have a lot more Irish in me. My grandfathers grandparents came from Ireland. The biggest deviation we have is my mother is Venezuala.

All (well almost all) are here because we had a lot of the same issues that you have in your marriage now that we have used this program and forum to help make things better...great.

The forums can be on the very honest side and it can be a bit abrasive to some because we don't like hearing what we're doign wrong. Both you and your wife are LBing each other like crazy. If you're LBing all the time, it's not going to do much to improve things by meeting ENs. So the LBs have to stop first.

Remember that we all want you to succeed. But we all use a thing called radical honesty.


Wife is irritated again. I'll be honest as I just was with her, I'm kidding myself and all of you if I said I was 100% positive nothing outside of our marriage was going on. I apologize for choosing to defend my wife's feelings over telling you all how I really feel. I have no proof. All I can say is that she shows no affection to me at all and it hurts. I told her the "burden of proof" shouldn't be on me snooping around until I find something. The feeling of uncertainty should mostly go away when I see and feel affection and love. I don't right now so I consider the possibility despite the odds that something might be going on because I have no reason telling me otherwise. With a four month old, two children, no odd behavior on her part, all of it adds up to nothing. The one thing I base this off of is the fact that she shuts me out and has shown a pretty poor track record of improving this despite my clear cut communication that this is my most important EN. I asked her tonight if she would snuggle with me on the couch and she ignored it. She sent a text and did a couple of things on her phone. She said it "went over her head" which might actually be true. To her credit she also politely asked if I could ask that only after the baby goes to bed. Something like this spoke volumes about her effort to meet this EN of mine. Something this small is enough to make me consider the possibility of an affair. I don't know if it is worse to consider a spouse might be having an affair or to be a spouse that is not having an affair and knowing their husband doesn't fully believe them. Either way it sucks for both and one thing I know for sure, is we will not progress further until she puts this thought to rest. I freely admit to you all that we are not making progress. My wife did her first post and showed me one response. She said some things were helpful but that you all blasted her quite a bit too like you did to me. To her credit she is reading HNHN right now which is great. She definitely is curious at the replies in this forum but she also at this stage in the game told me that it just causes us to fight and is harmful. Tell me it gets better please.



Fact of the matter is, that if something doesn't change then the weakening of your marriage can lead to one or both of you falling into the trap of infidelity, or divorce.

I've been right where you are now, HT. And I didn't go looking for help, I just silently imploded.

It's not an easy thing to be prioritized at the bottom of our spouse's list of priorities. And the more we allow that to happen, the further down the list we can fall.

The sad truth of the matter is, that it is in the best interest of our children that we put our spouse first, so that they can be raised in a loving, supportive home.

The reason that your posts are causing fights is because you are taking these posts as an opportunity to educate each other.

KNOCK IT OFF.

If you can't handle implementing the concepts without using the advice of posters as fodder against each other, then go to individual phone coaching through the coaching center on this site.

Do not read each others threads, do not post on them. At this point you can hardly act like civilized human beings toward each other.

Each of you needs to understand that your threads are about you, and not the other spouse.



Last night after talking we settled into a groove and spent some time on the couch together side by side. My wife displayed affection to me for the first time in a long time and I think we had a pretty good time. No sex afterwards but that doesn't bother me because the effort was there. What I learned after a pleasant evening and pleasant morning is that despite an effort to show me affection, my instincts tell me it may not continue and that scares me. In our discussion last night my wife had me read a paragraph out of the book about how meeting emotional needs, particularly sex is difficult if she doesn't feel like it. She doesn't feel like it because we fight all the time. Also in these two pages was the description of "sexual aversion". I'm fairly certain my wife was telling me in her own way that she has an aversion to having sex with me. Not only does this not feel good, but it scares me on a bunch of different levels. I'm afraid my insecurity in this relationship is far from healed and if my wife can't mentally get past this aversion, it might make the path to that healing much longer.


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If you both work, she will get past it. Telling you about it is the first step...not comfortable but can't be skipped if you want to move foreward.

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The good news, Hill, is that YOU have a measure of control over aversion and fighting. That's great news, in fact! She's told you why there is a problem, now dig into the why's and fix them. You are in an enviable power state right now. Ask her what would make her feel like having sex. Stop her if she starts talking about why she won't. Tell her to put it on the LBQ, because right now all you want to know is what DOES make her feel like it, and the discussion of the don't's is on the schedule. [note a time, agree on a time, you two do need to discuss that, just not all at once] NO SEX happens until you both are in enthusiastic agreement about it, remember?

SHE IS HERE. You're golden, man. I'm happy for you!!!


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Hilltopper - here's the cool thing about all this - it can all turn around for the better!

I fell into a funk or fog or whatever you want to call it for about 4 yrs. During that 4 yr period SF was pretty much non-existent. When I woke up and started to realize the neglect and I started applying MB principles, it was hard to sit around and be told no everytime I initiated. I originally took it as - dang - rejected again. In my wife's mind - it was why won't he leave me alone - doesn't he know I love him and I just can't turn on the SF feelings immediately?

We've gotten past this finally. I kept filling and keep filling her love bank. It's one of my top priorities! She knows where I stand and she fills mine by being more receptive and not saying no all the time and we did settle on a minimum of SF monthly that was mutally acceptable - dang it - did we just POJA???!!!!

For my wife and I - it's been a time of healing past hurts and straightening out current problems and sometimes just going with the flow and being there with the UA time as much as we can now. We now flirt and play with each other daily whereas for a long long long time our marriage and relationship was dead.

It's good your wife is here. Mine still thinks MB is a bunch of kooks but she dies like the positive changes so I guess we are not all bad.

Good luck on your journey and keep those love busters down to a minimum. Talk with your wife and don't hesitate to inquire and ask what she thinks about things. Just like you can't read her mind - she can't read yours either!

God bless you both and Good journeys with MB!


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Originally Posted By: Powerbane
Hilltopper - here's the cool thing about all this - it can all turn around for the better!

I fell into a funk or fog or whatever you want to call it for about 4 yrs. During that 4 yr period SF was pretty much non-existent. When I woke up and started to realize the neglect and I started applying MB principles, it was hard to sit around and be told no everytime I initiated. I originally took it as - dang - rejected again. In my wife's mind - it was why won't he leave me alone - doesn't he know I love him and I just can't turn on the SF feelings immediately?

We've gotten past this finally. I kept filling and keep filling her love bank. It's one of my top priorities! She knows where I stand and she fills mine by being more receptive and not saying no all the time and we did settle on a minimum of SF monthly that was mutally acceptable - dang it - did we just POJA???!!!!

For my wife and I - it's been a time of healing past hurts and straightening out current problems and sometimes just going with the flow and being there with the UA time as much as we can now. We now flirt and play with each other daily whereas for a long long long time our marriage and relationship was dead.

It's good your wife is here. Mine still thinks MB is a bunch of kooks but she dies like the positive changes so I guess we are not all bad.

Good luck on your journey and keep those love busters down to a minimum. Talk with your wife and don't hesitate to inquire and ask what she thinks about things. Just like you can't read her mind - she can't read yours either!

God bless you both and Good journeys with MB!


Being told no really sucks. After a while I just assumed it was a no and pretty much stopped asking. I hate that it has gotten to this point but there is nothing I can do now but just move forward and fix it. I'm thrilled my wife is here on this forum with her own thread. After getting some positive, but apparently a lot of negative feedback she said something along the lines of, "I'm done with it. I'll read but I won't spend time on this forum." I respectfully encouraged her to stay. I think the curiosity alone will keep her coming back. You all smacked me around too when I first came here and it was hard to take. I think many times our expectation of what to expect here is different from the reality. When I first came here I thought I'd get a "Ohhh, poor Hilltopper, what he has to endure from his wife every day...." Instead it was more of a "stop behaving like an ass and LBing your wife all day". Makes me laugh now and I'm sure my wife is just rebelling against getting slapped up side the head a bit. Keep at it with both of us!


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Originally Posted By: CWMI
The good news, Hill, is that YOU have a measure of control over aversion and fighting. That's great news, in fact! She's told you why there is a problem, now dig into the why's and fix them. You are in an enviable power state right now. Ask her what would make her feel like having sex. Stop her if she starts talking about why she won't. Tell her to put it on the LBQ, because right now all you want to know is what DOES make her feel like it, and the discussion of the don't's is on the schedule. [note a time, agree on a time, you two do need to discuss that, just not all at once] NO SEX happens until you both are in enthusiastic agreement about it, remember?

SHE IS HERE. You're golden, man. I'm happy for you!!!


I asked her the question about what DOES make her feel good in an email right now. We'll see what she says. I know what DOESN'T turn her on quite clearly. Her EN email to me about a month ago described "pleasant day = pleasant feelings = sex". We've had many pleasant days so that isn't it. It obviously takes a lot more than not fighting for her to desire sex with me.


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Okay, Hill, will you do me and yourself a favor? Act on the positive actionable things she says, and ignore the rest for now. You can get so busy being positive that you don't have time to berate, so get busy, sir.


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Originally Posted By: Hilltopper1972
Originally Posted By: CWMI
The good news, Hill, is that YOU have a measure of control over aversion and fighting. That's great news, in fact! She's told you why there is a problem, now dig into the why's and fix them. You are in an enviable power state right now. Ask her what would make her feel like having sex. Stop her if she starts talking about why she won't. Tell her to put it on the LBQ, because right now all you want to know is what DOES make her feel like it, and the discussion of the don't's is on the schedule. [note a time, agree on a time, you two do need to discuss that, just not all at once] NO SEX happens until you both are in enthusiastic agreement about it, remember?

SHE IS HERE. You're golden, man. I'm happy for you!!!


I asked her the question about what DOES make her feel good in an email right now. We'll see what she says. I know what DOESN'T turn her on quite clearly. Her EN email to me about a month ago described "pleasant day = pleasant feelings = sex". We've had many pleasant days so that isn't it. It obviously takes a lot more than not fighting for her to desire sex with me.



Use these;

Emotional Needs - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/enq.pdf

Love Busters wifes - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/Love_Busters_Q_Hers.pdf

husband's http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/Love_Busters_Q_His.pdf

Fill those out, work from there.


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Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Originally Posted By: Hilltopper1972
Originally Posted By: CWMI
The good news, Hill, is that YOU have a measure of control over aversion and fighting. That's great news, in fact! She's told you why there is a problem, now dig into the why's and fix them. You are in an enviable power state right now. Ask her what would make her feel like having sex. Stop her if she starts talking about why she won't. Tell her to put it on the LBQ, because right now all you want to know is what DOES make her feel like it, and the discussion of the don't's is on the schedule. [note a time, agree on a time, you two do need to discuss that, just not all at once] NO SEX happens until you both are in enthusiastic agreement about it, remember?

SHE IS HERE. You're golden, man. I'm happy for you!!!


I asked her the question about what DOES make her feel good in an email right now. We'll see what she says. I know what DOESN'T turn her on quite clearly. Her EN email to me about a month ago described "pleasant day = pleasant feelings = sex". We've had many pleasant days so that isn't it. It obviously takes a lot more than not fighting for her to desire sex with me.



Use these;

Emotional Needs - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/enq.pdf

Love Busters wifes - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/Love_Busters_Q_Hers.pdf

husband's http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/Love_Busters_Q_His.pdf

Fill those out, work from there.


We have the workbook at home. We signed the contract and identified LB's and EN's, marked the top five for each. I started on the "avoiding SD's part" yesterday. I'll ask my wife if she can do a section or two with me tonight.


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Originally Posted By: Hilltopper1972

Also in these two pages was the description of "sexual aversion". I'm fairly certain my wife was telling me in her own way that she has an aversion to having sex with me. Not only does this not feel good, but it scares me on a bunch of different levels. I'm afraid my insecurity in this relationship is far from healed and if my wife can't mentally get past this aversion, it might make the path to that healing much longer.

It may not be a true sexual aversion, HT, but rather it could be that there are too many lovebusters going on. Dr Harley says when couples learn not to lovebust and meet ENs, most bedroom problems go away.

If you are having any AOs, that is the FIRST thing I would focus on, HT. Dr Harley has said nothing else can be fixed if there are AOs.


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I think it would help you two tremendously to review the enemies of conversation.

Originally Posted By: Dr Harley
The Enemies of Good Conversation
The conversation you and your wife once shared was enjoyable for both of you. You looked forward to talking to each other. But lately, it's not at all pleasant. In fact, it's something you often do out of duty rather than choice. That's because you have developed habits that make your conversations unpleasant. I call those habits Enemies of Good Conversation.

The First Enemy of Good Conversation is using conversation to force agreement to your way of thinking. It's okay to negotiate with your spouse, but it's not okay to be disrespectful. Negotiation should start with a problem and end with a mutually acceptable way to solve it. When disrespect enters the picture, you not only fail to solve the problem, you leave with hurt feelings.

If you are thinking, "I'm right and you're wrong," watch out! You are just an utterance away from disaster. The Love Buster, disrespectful judgments, will not straighten your spouse out, as you hope. Instead, it will drive your spouse away from you. At first, you will develop emotional distance with your tactics, as your superficial conversation demonstrates. But eventually it will lead to physical distance -- separation or divorce.

Instead of trying to force agreement to your way of thinking, discuss your differing perspectives with respect. Your spouse's point of view is worth considering. After you fully understand it, you may be persuaded to her way of thinking.

Quite frankly, couples are easily influenced by each other when they are respectful. Their joint wisdom is more profound than the wisdom of either of them separately, and they know that. But that wisdom is uncovered only through respectful persuasion, never through disrespectful judgments.


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5056_qa.html


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Originally Posted By: SusieQ
Originally Posted By: Hilltopper1972

Also in these two pages was the description of "sexual aversion". I'm fairly certain my wife was telling me in her own way that she has an aversion to having sex with me. Not only does this not feel good, but it scares me on a bunch of different levels. I'm afraid my insecurity in this relationship is far from healed and if my wife can't mentally get past this aversion, it might make the path to that healing much longer.

It may not be a true sexual aversion, HT, but rather it could be that there are too many lovebusters going on. Dr Harley says when couples learn not to lovebust and meet ENs, most bedroom problems go away.

If you are having any AOs, that is the FIRST thing I would focus on, HT. Dr Harley has said nothing else can be fixed if there are AOs.


You could be right about it just being too many LB's. I assume you are referring to AO's based on something my wife wrote on her post because I've never discussed it here in this thread? I do get frustrated and clam up for sure. I might even be angry at times, but AO's are definitely not something I do very often unless I'm being yelled at. In fact I think my wife would describe me as a very calm individual that thinks quite a bit before speaking. I say this next part knowing that this forum is not about trying to disprove the other spouse's argument ok? I tell you because it made me think of AO's and how they affect me in my marriage. My wife when she gets frustrated with me pointing out something that she's done or not done that is hurtful or makes me feel bad, she typically raises her voice just below a yell in frustration. My wife to my face has described me as having a temper which is pretty much way off the mark. I've seen a temper in some friends and so has she, I don't have one at all. I think she is referring to my habit of holding things in and then letting several out at one time rather than bringing them up right when they occur? I really don't know, I'm sure we'll find out.


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I wasn't sure and that's why I also posted the enemies of conversation link for you as well.

I had to work on my own AOs (emotional ones) and learn to walk away when I am upset or getting frustrated and in the opposite way also walk away when I see my H starting to get upset or frustrated as well. It helped tremendously when we stopped this cycle!

Keep reading and working. You guys are on the right track. It will take some time for you two to both break your bad habits (pls see Dr Harley's link on instincts and habits!) But once you form new habits, it will all be almost, well, easy. Hang in there smile

Last edited by SusieQ; 04/19/11 03:06 PM.

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Hilltopper ... I do not think your wife has an "aversion to sex" per say .. but a lack of an emotional connection to you. Bring back the connection first and build it up ... and stop with the sad eyes when you do not recieve what your hoping for.

Be glad your wife is here. And give it TIME for the MB community and advice and books to grab a hold of her.

Basicly .. SLOW DOWN and stop being so emotional and just continue to meet her needs without expectations for now ... and get back to reconnecting at an emotional level without sex for now.

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Originally Posted By: Hilltopper1972
You could be right about it just being too many LB's. I assume you are referring to AO's based on something my wife wrote on her post because I've never discussed it here in this thread? I do get frustrated and clam up for sure.


Here's the thing. You need to address issues before they get to the point of frustration. If you get frustrated, you need to walk away and come back later. You still have to address them, though. Clamming up solves nothing, and in fact frustrates your wife, because she knows you have an issue and aren't addressing it.

Originally Posted By: Hilltopper1972
I might even be angry at times, but AO's are definitely not something I do very often unless I'm being yelled at. In fact I think my wife would describe me as a very calm individual that thinks quite a bit before speaking.


She describes you as someone who "stews" over issues. Why are you thinking so much? Simple, you are readying yourself to fire off a disrespectful judgment. You want her "see things your way" when you commit to making a statement.

Holding off on speaking your feelings in a respectful manner until you are "being yelled at" is both being a conflict avoider, and being Dishonest by omission.

Originally Posted By: Hilltopper1972
I say this next part knowing that this forum is not about trying to disprove the other spouse's argument ok? I tell you because it made me think of AO's and how they affect me in my marriage. My wife when she gets frustrated with me pointing out something that she's done or not done that is hurtful or makes me feel bad, she typically raises her voice just below a yell in frustration.


Then address how you "point it out." Quit trying to straighten her out, and simply state your feelings about a particular action. If she wants to argue about it, DON'T ENGAGE. Say, "I feel this conversation is no longer safe, and we will talk about it at another time." If she continues to bait the argument, walk away.

Originally Posted By: Hilltopper1972
My wife to my face has described me as having a temper which is pretty much way off the mark. I've seen a temper in some friends and so has she, I don't have one at all. I think she is referring to my habit of holding things in and then letting several out at one time rather than bringing them up right when they occur? I really don't know, I'm sure we'll find out.


Adam Sandler, Anger Management. That's what you sound like.


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HIll, if your wife has told you to your face that you have a temper .. and you dismiss her complaint by saying .. "well so and so has temper" that is a disrespectful judgement on your part.. She is TELLING you that you do .. and in her eyes .. its causing love bank withdrawls. IF she says you have a temper .. then you do! We all do in fact. Its possible that your wife is more sensitive to your "temper" than you realize because you dismiss her feelings about it.

I did that to my wife too .. she would say the same thing to me. "honey your yelling at me" And i would exclaim "no im not im simply trying to get my point across!"

The point is ... in HER mind .. I AM yelling .. becasue she is not me ... and is on the recieving end. She has better hearing than I do .. so what I precive as yelling .. and what she precieves as yelling are 2 very different situations. So I had to learn to adjust my own tone so I didnt come across as yelling .. even if i was frustrated. Why? Because she was sensitive to my frustrations and regardless if i thought i was yelling or not .. it was withdrawing love units faster than i could replace them because it WAS yelling TO her.

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Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Originally Posted By: Hilltopper1972
You could be right about it just being too many LB's. I assume you are referring to AO's based on something my wife wrote on her post because I've never discussed it here in this thread? I do get frustrated and clam up for sure.


Here's the thing. You need to address issues before they get to the point of frustration. If you get frustrated, you need to walk away and come back later. You still have to address them, though. Clamming up solves nothing, and in fact frustrates your wife, because she knows you have an issue and aren't addressing it.

Originally Posted By: Hilltopper1972
I might even be angry at times, but AO's are definitely not something I do very often unless I'm being yelled at. In fact I think my wife would describe me as a very calm individual that thinks quite a bit before speaking.


She describes you as someone who "stews" over issues. Why are you thinking so much? Simple, you are readying yourself to fire off a disrespectful judgment. You want her "see things your way" when you commit to making a statement.

Holding off on speaking your feelings in a respectful manner until you are "being yelled at" is both being a conflict avoider, and being Dishonest by omission.

Originally Posted By: Hilltopper1972
I say this next part knowing that this forum is not about trying to disprove the other spouse's argument ok? I tell you because it made me think of AO's and how they affect me in my marriage. My wife when she gets frustrated with me pointing out something that she's done or not done that is hurtful or makes me feel bad, she typically raises her voice just below a yell in frustration.


Then address how you "point it out." Quit trying to straighten her out, and simply state your feelings about a particular action. If she wants to argue about it, DON'T ENGAGE. Say, "I feel this conversation is no longer safe, and we will talk about it at another time." If she continues to bait the argument, walk away.

Originally Posted By: Hilltopper1972
My wife to my face has described me as having a temper which is pretty much way off the mark. I've seen a temper in some friends and so has she, I don't have one at all. I think she is referring to my habit of holding things in and then letting several out at one time rather than bringing them up right when they occur? I really don't know, I'm sure we'll find out.


Adam Sandler, Anger Management. That's what you sound like.


I hold things in because bringing them up historically gets shot down with my spouse telling me, "you are reading into things", or "you are overreacting", or "you shouldn't feel that way." In other words it has historically been pointless to bring anything up that bothers me so I just hold it in. If that means I'm dishonest and avoiding conflict, can you blame me? I am working on this clamming up however. I haven't seen that movie so I don't know what anger issues Adam Sandler had in that movie, maybe you can explain. Ever since someone on this forum suggested that "its not ok for her to tell me how to feel" I've felt good about it and empowered a little bit. My feelings about EN's or LB's are my feelings, no one else's.


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You can be open and honest regardless of what anyone else is doing. It's a choice. As is being kind and loving. Your choice, Hill. So yes, you are to blame for being dishonest and a conflict avoider.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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