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Did she give one damn about me at any point when she was with him?
[color:#FF0000]NO!![/color]!!!
Did she keep me incredibly lonely for longs periods of time?
[color:#FF0000]YES!!!![/color]!!!
Did she disrespect our home for years?
[color:#FF0000]YES!!!![/color]!!!
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Mike, I'm a FWW. My A (EA turned PA) lasted less than a year, and I trickle-truthed my H for four months after he found out and the A ended. My A wasn't long-term like your W, nor was it with anyone my H knew, but that doesn't make it any easier to overcome the breach of my H's trust in me. Im stuck figuring how to trust a woman capable of such a lie. Im stuck trying to convince myself that my children�s well being is worth me eating [censored] for the foreseeable future. I cannot trust her to be a good mom 100% of the time. If you've read Dr. H's books and the articles on this site, you will discover that he actually says we should not trust our spouses. One topic is loss of trust. How can a spouse ever trust an unfaithful partner again? My answer is that the spouse should never have been trusted in the first place. I shouldn't be trusted by my wife, and I shouldn't trust her. The fact is that we are all wired for infidelity, and under certain conditions, we'll all do it. The way to protect your marriage from something that has been common to man (and women) for thousands of years is to recognize the threat, and do something to prevent it from happening. Read the article here. Look, I hold all the cards right now and for all long I want them. I have only 2 things I care about at this moment: my 2 kids. Me leaving would not do them any good and Im not going to f*** them up more than their mother did. She knows she hurt them, me, and will spend her days making amends. If she is willing to make amends, you will also have to be willing to accept the deposits she will try to make in your LB$ - again, I am not a BS, but from experience it has been difficult for me, as a FWW, to make deposits in my H's LB$ and overcome the resentment he feels towards me. If your goal is to remain married, you must build a better M than you had pre-A. This means that you will have to begin to meet your WW's most important EN's to build the "in-love" feelings in her. If she "gets it," and is truly repentant, she'll do everything that she can to show you that. The MB path to recovery is for both of you to meet each others' needs and build a new, romantic M...even then, Dr. H says R can take 2-5 years. Truth is, I got 9 short years until Jr is off to college, then Im free to stay, go, divorce, what ever. Thats a commitment to our kids I made, she dropped the ball, and needs to get herself together. And that is your choice, and there is not a soul on this boards who would argue with you on that. Me personally, I truly believe the best thing for your children is to live together under one roof with their mother and their father, who are in love with each other. That's what I have committed to in my heart. That may not mean a hill of beans to the man I betrayed, but I can't control him. I can only control me. From reading others' posts on this board, who have gone through their parents' divorces later in life, it does not seem to really get any easier for them. But, by the same token, it is not easy for a child to live in a house where there is no love between their parents. This may be going in a different direction but she more or less introduced a third party to out bedroom. So I asked her to get someone for me.
Someone said it above: its about equalling it out. Making it even. How is this going to make it better? I know you have a lot to resent, but having a revenge affair (RA) is not going to "even things out." There are posters on this board who are in M's where the BS had a RA, and it only compounds the problem. Your WW's actions were morally bankrupt. Having an RA brings you down to that level. You are better than that. Neither you nor the OMW pushed them together. They made deliberate choices to do what they did. You are not to blame for their A. You are 50% responsible for the state of your M pre-A, and post-A, but you are NOT in any way responsible for her choices. You could not - and can not - control her, any more than she can control you. Your best chance at R is ensuring that the A is well and truly dead, ensuring that your WW puts in place rock-solid EP's, and you snoop and verify that NC is firmly in place. And OBX? From what you mentioned .. I think the only reason why she's sucking up not is so she doesn't lose everything. She is the worst kind of snake if you ask me and she will F up again. Sure. She might F up again. The best way to prevent this is to follow the MB plan and build a passionate, romantic M where both parties are having their most important EN's met. And I am sure a lot of people would look at what I am doing and say I'm just sucking up so I don't lose "everything". That's their opinion. What is "everything"? Material possessions? The house? A second income? That kind of cr@p doesn't matter. A house is a house. I have a great house. Beautiful. Sits on a big lot in the country. And I'm also all alone in it right now b/c my H is gone and he's got the kids this weekend. It didn't take long to realize that this house is not a home without H. Materially, my life changed very little when H moved out. If I was just in it for the "stuff," I could just stop fighting. Yes, this was a long-term, entangled A which comes with some additional issues for Mike to deal with. Seven years is a long time...but A's are evil no matter how long the duration. All active waywards are snakes. Maybe I have a tendency to be Pollyanna and put on my rose-colored glasses at times...but MB can give Mike a plan to restore his M, if it is his choice to do so. And all men are not "dogs." I would never consider my BH that. That is a false generalization and it's downright inflammatory.
FWW
"Snow and adolescence are the only problems that disappear if you ignore them long enough." ~ Earl Wilson
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I've obviously caused offense BUT I actually meant we "men" are dogs in the mentality sense. Alpha , Beta etc.
The OP felt threatened that an Alpha male basically had control of his wife for all those years and he didn't even have a clue. If not for the OM's wife this would still be going on period. Nobody can "make" you do something you do not want to do. From what he told us there was never any indication this arrangement was going to stop ever had HE not been caught.
The OP is a Beta male, his recent actions in the confirmation of having a threesome is now his way of asserting that he is alpha. If she wanted an alpha he will make himself one sexually. I don't deny your love for your wife but others seem to be ignoring the other things you say. You are now doing a lot of things our of revenge and just like I mentioned in my post you are now making sure you get everything sexually you can.
You have also hinted (did you even realise) that it's quite possible after the kids are in/out of college if the pain is still there you will leave your wife. I'm sorry I don't mean to be blunt your situation is not that unique other then she actually managed to put the veil over your eyes for 7 YEARS over 4000 days.
WulfPack I .. feel your remorse in your comment and I'm sorry you lost a lot but it is the consequence of what you did.
OP you can demand more details, you can make all the sexual requests you like but you will never understand. You wont forget it doesn't happen. Yes you can forgive but also this betrayal will come up in arguments every now and then for the rest of your life. Period.
I'm used to other forums but I understand this is (as the domain is written) for essentially saving marriages but as others have stated children can tell if their parents are in a loveless marriage or when something is off in this case one of the children already knows or all?
I really do hope this reconciliation goes well but I think the biggest mistake you just made (has it happened) is now inviting a 3rd person for a romp. You've just opened up a new can of worms, it's not about getting even it's about getting back on course and that is not done with just sexual conquests.
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Thanks all. Im new and many of these terms (OM, MB, EA, etc.) are unknown to me. But Im getting the gist.
Hi Mike, Sorry you're here with us Bro. OM=other man, EA=emotional affair, MB= Marriage builders
I am 100% sure she is not in contact with the other guy. She didnt have that big of interest in being with him when they were together from what it sounds like. As I see it and said it above, this was a relationship of convenience for both. She was able to earn a few bucks and he got his jollies for cheap. Yes, this make my wife a prostitute, a fact she admitted and is going to be forever trying to live with.
Mike, my former wayward wife FWW's A's (affairs) Were not about "love". They were about her having some extremely unfulfilled emotional needs that she carried over from childhood that she never told me about. I was not able to fulfill them. The result was that she formed poor boundaries for herself and when the OM's came along, they were able to breach her defenses and have them filled. In a sense, it is a relationship of convenience because it is extremely selfish. It is unloving to you, but also to the affair partner. It is a take/take relationship. If he was filling some emotional needs you weren't, then she was no doubt willing to give him what he wanted in exchange for them.
Can someone tell me why knowing explicit details of encounters is important to me? I know there was oral on him and intercourse, but what else? Im not sure this is the proper forum for where my line of concern is going, but I want the dirty details. I want to know how easy she made it for him. I want to know how often there was oral and/or intercourse.
Um.. yeah. I have more than an idea. I asked for times, positions, I asked for facial expressions, words spoken, hand and body positions... Be careful what you ask for... I got all my answers. I both appreciate knowing and regret having to live with the details of it in my head the rest of my life. Heck, I even had her draw pictures at one point... (Don't do that). The fact is, she may have done more with him than for you, because there is a selfish desperation to have certain emotional needs met. Needs you may not be aware of as of yet.
They are important (or were to me), because we are afraid. afraid of being compared, of not measuring up. We are afraid that there was something better that the other guy was doing that we weren't. The truth is, the guy could've been a rock star in bed, but who cares? He is *not* you. You also want to see just how much was given up by her for someone else. Someone that as time goes on, you will realize she never really knew. You know why? Because the whole relationship they had is based on lies.
I have to live the rest of my life knowing that she gave her body to another man. OK. I get it. But there is this mystery about the nature of the sex that stills gets me. She finds the whole experience degrading and extremely upsetting so when I ask, I get silence. So, in effort to keep recovery going I stop the line of questioning.
Here's my suggestion. If it is killing you and you absolutely have to know (and be prepared, there is consequences to knowing that you will not be prepared for emotionally, get out a pen and paper... Write your questions down. Every single one of them. Sit down with her and TALK. Ask her the questions with the promise that you are moving FORWARD from there. Have her answer every detail she can to the best of her knowledge. Write down her answers. It may be embarrassing, but it is following the policy of openness and honesty which your marriage cannot survive without. It will also bring you closer together if you handle this right. Your lives will be bare before each other.
If she is too embarrassed... Have her write her answers down for you and then you can write her follow up questions. Do it with the idea of healing and moving forward in mind. Keep that your focus.
Someone asked how I found out: Perhaps classic, mostly pathetic. On Mother's Day, his wife called my house looking for me frantically. I had my mother, grandmother, and brothers over. My daughter answered the phone put me on another phone and didnt hang up. So, that day, my daughter and I learned that her husband has 15 videos of my wife giving him a blowjob on his cell phone. (He did this completely without my wife knowing, this is confirmed. And, he had another dozen videos of a different girl blowing him.)
So, this is the cross I bear.
I am sorry for this. It serves to show what kind of a non-man he is. have your wife get checked for std's by a doc asap if you haven't already. If he's playing with more than one woman, your health may be in danger. Yes, it is a cross to bear, but bearing one another's burdens is what marriage is all about. When one is weak the other is strong, when one falls, the other stoops to pick them up. You *can* make this work. Read the materials here and use them. They are excellent.
CV
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I've obviously caused offense BUT I actually meant we "men" are dogs in the mentality sense. Alpha , Beta etc.
The OP felt threatened that an Alpha male basically had control of his wife for all those years and he didn't even have a clue. If not for the OM's wife this would still be going on period. Nobody can "make" you do something you do not want to do. From what he told us there was never any indication this arrangement was going to stop ever had HE not been caught.
PPfthhhbt! Psycho-babble. People can and do make other people do things all the time. Bust an affair wide open and it usually dies. There was no indication my FWW was going to stop. I stopped it and saved her life. I laid out my terms in very clear conditions when I met with my W, the OM and his W the morning after I found out. Could OM have continued with my wife? Most certainly, but there are always consequences to actions and I was very clear if he wanted my wife, they would be free to go.... After I made him a eunuch. And.. it sounds like OM's wife was the alpha male in their marriage. She blew it wide open.
<<The OP is a Beta male, his recent actions in the confirmation of having a threesome is now his way of asserting that he is alpha. If she wanted an alpha he will make himself one sexually. I don't deny your love for your wife but others seem to be ignoring the other things you say. You are now doing a lot of things our of revenge and just like I mentioned in my post you are now making sure you get everything sexually you can.>>>
No. This is the OM pushing the limits as most sexual predators do. it is not an alpha thing, it is predatory. He pushes the limits, entrenches the wife in more and more until she feels too trapped to ask for help and free herself from the relationship.
You have also hinted (did you even realise) that it's quite possible after the kids are in/out of college if the pain is still there you will leave your wife. I'm sorry I don't mean to be blunt your situation is not that unique other then she actually managed to put the veil over your eyes for 7 YEARS over 4000 days.
Have you considered that when the kids are in college is they follow a solid recovery plan that they might have a better marriage than ever? Yes, she managed to pull the wool over his eyes, but they have an opportunity to be open and honest now. To take those years of lies and deciet and turn them into a learning experience where they can live happily together in a relationship that is trusting and fulfilling. I have a friend my wife and I counselled that was a minister. His wife had began an affair on him with a man she met while they were dating. The affair lasted from 2 years prior to their marriage through the first 6 years. They had never know a time where she wasn't cheating. Now, 2 years later, they have a healthy loving marriage that trust is being restored in.
WulfPack I .. feel your remorse in your comment and I'm sorry you lost a lot but it is the consequence of what you did.
Thank you Captain Obvious. WPG knows this. Probably better than most here. While some things are true, they don't always need to be said. That said, she did not lose. Not completely. I would encourage you to read her threads. here is a woman who has changed. for the better. She has taken what she was, obliterated it, and replaced it with something of value. She has (on many ways, like my own wife) become a pearl.
OP you can demand more details, you can make all the sexual requests you like but you will never understand. You wont forget it doesn't happen. Yes you can forgive but also this betrayal will come up in arguments every now and then for the rest of your life. Period.
Flibberty jibbet. As I sit here writing, I realize that the pain (three years later) has diminished immensely. I do not remember many of the details shared unless I obsess. I am able to discuss things and even argue without bringing up her past. Brother, you sound like i man who has not healed. Period .
CV
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The types of things I suggested Id like to do were met with OK every time. So, the inner battle I have is that this woman who now is the sexual workhouse I dreamed of and willing and ready to satisfy my wildest ideas, am I taking advantage of a broken woman? Should I care? Do I show respect because some of what I proposing may be construed by some as degrading? This sounds extremely selfish. I guess the answer depends on the kind of man you want to be. Do you want to be like that other man? She's decided to stick it out with you, right? Has she made a choice? Has she written him a no contact letter (you really should do that first). Have you considered the long-term ramifications of what you are asking/forcing? That she may grow to resent you? That what you are doing is not loving and be counter-productive in causing her to stop this kind of behavior?
Let me ask you this... Would you use someone else's wife like this? Why or why not? If not, why would you treat your own wife that way?
Respect is a two way street. If you want to be respected, it has to be shown as well. If she is a broken woman and you are taking advantage, isn't that abuse?
It all goes back to the kind of man you want to be. So.. What kind of man do you want to be? How do you want your kids to know you? As the man who took the high road, or the one who took the easy route?
I answer with questions: Did she give one damn about me at any point when she was with him? Did she keep me incredibly lonely for longs periods of time? Did she disrespect our home for years? No. She didn't, but love does not repay evil for evilSome cynical guy above says I have to watch out for her and I will, but this was a union of 2 brought together under some of the most unique circumstances. Really it was like me and his wife almost pushed them together. Stupid. Really. So, she doenst go to bars and clubs, she reported to an office where he was. Bingo bango. I obviously will be a skosh smarter and less trustful of her but the sheer embarassmnet she is living with makes her going back to him or anyone else very remote. Shes not a serial adulterer, this is her 3rd sex partner, not a seasoned pro in the sack. But I will be weary. I do love her, just mad as hell at her. Totally understandable. Resentment is normal at this stage. So is anger. Read here for overcoming anger and resnetment: restoring your marrriage
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Mike,
Can someone tell me why knowing explicit details of encounters is important to me?
If it will kill you in the future not knowing then get them NOW!
My W claims to have forgotten alot, and it may be true or it may be just more deception. However the problem is I can't tell the difference.
Another reason is honesty, if she is holding ANYTHING back it is keeping secrets from you. And you can no longer have that kind of relationship. Her willingness to tell your the embarrising details is a measure of her honesty.
Oh and again get her tested for STDs.
God Bless
Gamma
Last edited by Gamma; 05/21/11 03:57 PM.
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Thanks all. Reading these posts almost makes me want to skip my psychologist appt tomorrow morn.
Celticvoyager, you are by far the most dead on with your analysis and I appreciate the time it took to enter it. Your assessment of the relationship was perfect, almost eerily so. It was about domination and control. Him over her. It was about complacency. Hers.
As I have been open to a fault with my wife, Im going to review your entry with her. I told her about this site and how its has the potential to motivate and really get me incensed.
I thank you for what you wrote because some of the stuff written by jilted husbands has me looking for my suitcase and yellow pages for lawyers. Your entry really dug deep into what Im feeling and that is I want to learn every bit of what went on and then let me decide what my next step is.
Your points about knowing the horny details is great. The approach youre suggesting is the way Ill go. She did give up some detail this morning and I really felt a relief of some kind. Didnt make me happy, just helped me over one of those bumps in the road we face everyday.
Please continue with the therapy, its awesome.
42M
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Thanks. My wife is playing that I forgot most of the stuff routine too. She is very embarassed. This was not an affair of the heart, no love. It was about a transaction. In its most basic this guy used my wife for his masterbation. Thats a sentence i will be dealing with for many, many years and may be the reason I leave, if I do. Otherwise, as I am doing now, I can be with my wife in all respects but especailly emotionally to build her self confidence and esteem. To let her know she should want more than that. And, to let her know Im here when she feels like she going to fall.
42M
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Thanks. My wife is playing that I forgot most of the stuff routine too. She is very embarassed. This was not an affair of the heart, no love. It was about a transaction. In its most basic this guy used my wife for his masterbation. Thats a sentence i will be dealing with for many, many years and may be the reason I leave, if I do. Otherwise, as I am doing now, I can be with my wife in all respects but especailly emotionally to build her self confidence and esteem. To let her know she should want more than that. And, to let her know Im here when she feels like she going to fall. Mike, Also remember that 7 years is a LOT to remember. She might be able to remember quite a bit, but she realistically won't remember every detail of the past 7 years. One thing you also want to work on along with building confidence and self esteem is building boundaries. This will prevent future indiscretion. Go to the main site and find the Emotional Needs questionnaire... Fill them out. Determine what your and her most important needs are and work towards meeting them. Have you exposed the affair to everyone you know yet? This *is* one of the key elements to insuring it does not happen again. It seems counter-productive, but really helps stop any future failure.
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An elderly man walked into a police station, explaining that he'd been abducted by three breathtaking stewardesses, and used sexually for three days. On being asked when this happened , the oldtimer said 43 years ago. The desk sergeant said, "Why would you wait 43 years to make a complaint?" The oldtimer said, "I ain't complaining, I'm bragging."
Yesterday afternoon I asked what exactly you wanted from us here. Today we get:
I will send her some of the most aweful texts, and demand things in bed Id never dare before. Ive proposed things and nothing is met with a no. Im going to ride this train while is here because I, as the man and the betrayed, can leave any time I want. This may be going in a different direction but she more or less introduced a third party to out bedroom. So I asked her to get someone for me.
So now I know. You want an audience for your bragging.
You'll excuse me if I leave before the next act.
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This may be going in a different direction but she more or less introduced a third party to out bedroom. So I asked her to get someone for me.
Someone said it above: its about equalling it out. Making it even. You know, equality is a funny thing... it's something we want when we feel we are missing out on something good....Timmy got 2 cookies and I only got one! BUT if Timmy got 2 spankings and I only got one, now that's a different story. That's when I don't want to be equal. Do you think that what your WW got was something good? or that where she has ended up is a worthy goal for yourself? Don't lower yourself to where she's ended up, but rather raise her up to where you are. Let the place of equality be a place that brings honor to both of you. As a FWW, I can tell you that the more my H showed me that I was a person of value, the more I wanted to prove him right. His kindness led me to real change. I wanted to become a wife he could be proud of and our romantic life has become new and exciting, not because I owe him something but because I want to please him out of love and respect.
Me...saved by grace
Him...wonderful husband
Us...3 years in to our new life and better every day!
and we have 3 great kids (20,19,17)
Eph. 5:22-33
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NeverGuessed, I wont miss you.
Celt: Yes, our parents and siblings know of all.
Its absolutely incredible the complete mood changes I go through on a daily basis. Schizo stuff. At one time Im looking forward for plans to spend forever with her. 2 hrs later Im having an anxiety attack and looking for my meds. And having little ability to see how I can actually forgive. Then all of the other stuff I rambled off on these pages go flying thru my head. Its so much to think about. I really didnt ask for this. For much of today, I felt dead inside. I didnt ask for this.
42M
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Celt: Yes, our parents and siblings know of all.
Its absolutely incredible the complete mood changes I go through on a daily basis. Schizo stuff. At one time Im looking forward for plans to spend forever with her. 2 hrs later Im having an anxiety attack and looking for my meds. And having little ability to see how I can actually forgive. Then all of the other stuff I rambled off on these pages go flying thru my head. Its so much to think about. I really didnt ask for this. For much of today, I felt dead inside. I didnt ask for this. Mike, I can't imagine anyone in their right mind asking for this. I know I sure didn't. I feel for you brother, because some days... Three years later, I still have a dead day here and there. The trick is to think forward. In a positive way, a way that won't end in destruction for you or your W. revenge is always the easy route and no one ever wants to hear that. If your W is truly repentant it will be evident in her demeanor. And the hard part comes when you just don't feel like it. What you need is an anchor to help guide you on the difficult days. So that when you are feeling this way, you aren't moving backwards, but forward... This is a modern Irish hymn that helps me keep my focus. Out of the night into the morn Drawing us gently through the eye of the storm Out of the sorrow into the joy Where we'll dwell in the highlands with Him evermore Sealed by a promise we are called to become Those who endure 'til this race is won And leaving their past, heading for more Than our hearts can imagine, the final reward As a BS (betrayed spouse), I see this for us both.. The future hope... CV
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I think that "third party to bedroom" comment was knee jerk and perhaps something I would, if I could, retract, because if you have read any of the stuff I write I do have feelings for this woman. Piling on and crushing her more is something I try to catch myself from doing as early as possible. If you see the woman I see after I finish a verbal kick to her gut, youd agree she's very broken down. I think the sheer length of time of the A, in any of the forms that I spoke of earlier, factored with the complete disregard for me as a person to allow him and his family in my home is going to be tough for me to deal with. Again, not for shock value, this turned into a cash transaction for lite babysitting and the occasional sex act. This obviously a woman who went down to a dark place inside. This was not love affair. It was like 2 buddies who every so often did each other. Sort of icky, but I couldnt blame him for it, my wife is beautiful. So, Im sticking around swallowsing some pride and heling this woman who needs my help.
Last edited by MikeSmile; 05/21/11 11:41 PM.
42M
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I think that "third party to bedroom" comment was knee jerk and perhaps something I would, if I could, retract, because if you have read any of the stuff I write I do have feelings for this woman. Piling on and crushing her more is something I try to catch myself from doing as early as possible. If you see the woman I see after I finish a verbal kick to her gut, youd agree she's very broken down. I think the sheer length of time of the A, in any of the forms that I spoke of earlier, factored with the complete disregard for me as a person to allow him and his family in my home is going to be tough for me to deal with. Again, not for shock value, this turned into a cash transaction for lite babysitting and the occasional sex act. This obviously a woman who went down to a dark place inside. This was not love affair. It was like 2 buddies who every so often did each other. Sort of icky, but I couldnt blame him for it, my wife is beautiful. I blame him. He stole something that was not his to take. Your wife. He wasn't a very good buddie to her either. If he was, he would never have done this, or allowed her to. That's not love, friendship or even fondness... What is her demeanor when things are not so crazy loopy for you both... When the arguements are at a minimum and she has a chance to be herself? Has she had an opportunity to share her feelings about the whole thing without blow-back yet? It took quite a while for that to happen with us. CV
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I blame him. He stole something that was not his to take. Your wife. He wasn't a very good buddie to her either. If he was, he would never have done this, or allowed her to. That's not love, friendship or even fondness... Well said!
Me...saved by grace
Him...wonderful husband
Us...3 years in to our new life and better every day!
and we have 3 great kids (20,19,17)
Eph. 5:22-33
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 121
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OP
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 121 |
Yes. We've talking camly at length and I am perfectly confident her story is true. Im missing only the details she is holding back that we spoke of earlier. She hated being there. Its so screwed, but because she didnt want to lose a lousy few hundred bucks a week babysitting job she says she did what she did. It wasnt weekly but obviously it was plenty. She got scared when he pressured her and held money over her. And, the job outside the sex was perfect for her to be available to our kids and whatnot. She felt trapped for many years. My wife, again, has some therapy ahead of her. Her remorse is genuine. She's been humiliated in many ways. I have to take care of my kids and she needs to work on herself. Thats what direction my life took.
42M
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 121
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 121 |
Celt and Grace: Im heading upstairs to bed.
Thanks for the great words. Tomorrows my 2 wk anniversary of learning my wife has been cheating on my for years. I learned a lot about me which is the best thing to come out of it. All these sites and advice a betrayed gets say that I should focus on me. BS. I have 2 kids and a wife with some serious head stuff to focus on.
Talk to you guys soon.
42M
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