I discovered this site about 5 years ago when I got divorced and I have been lurking ever since. I appreciate some of the very good opinions that are posted here so I like to hear what everyone thinks of my situation.

I am 52 years old and I am in a good financial position with no debt other than about 50k remaining to pay off my 250k house which would have been paid off this year except for unexpected medical bills but I will end up paying it off in a couple of years now. I got engaged about a year and a half ago to a great person.

About three and a half years ago I met a wonderful women and fell very much in love with her. She is 47 and makes about 95k a year as supervisory nurse in a psychiatric hospital. I believe she is very much in love with me. It was her idea to move in with me when we got engaged and I reluctantly agreed.

One problem is she is in debt about 290,000.00 because she is upside down on her home and has less than 8k in the bank. She is basically living from pay-check to pay-check. She does not spend wildly but did at one time. She truly believes she is financially fine and fails to see that one stumble with finances like medical bills or job lay-off and she is in big trouble and she is definitely not putting money away for retirement which she hopes she will be in about four years.

She owes about 267,000.00 on her house and has no equity in it. The house has some problems with it that are making it hard to sell and she refused to lower the price. She has had the house on the market for about 5 years and had a lot of people look at it but absolutely no offers. I feel that the only way to sell it would be to drastically lower the price and just take the hit. I have offered to financially cover the hit just so we can get married. I have to add that she has been completely honest with me about her debt.

She has refused all of my advise because she is very stubborn and now there is no market for the house. The real estate market is very bad and getting worse everyday in this area with the highest foreclosure rate in the state of Colorado of around 49%. When I say she is stubborn I mean it is more than just ultra stubbornness and seems to be an issue over control. I have become so angry and frustrated with her that I asked her to move out, which she did for the second time. I was frustrated enough with this house issue and another big issue with her 21 year old son that I resorted to verbal abuse of her.

I am taking full ownership for my poor choice to resort to verbal abuse and taking some very proactive steps to prevent that from happening again. I know that I cause a bunch of withdrawals from the love bank and I regret it very much. She is not talking to me at all for about two weeks now and a friend of hers has told me she is very hurt and mad about this situation. I made it clear to her that I did want her in my life but we both needed to make some changes. I am willing to do just about anything in order to make changes in regards to myself and our relationship.

My question for everyone is would you enter into a marriage with someone that was in this financial situation and do you think we can save this relationship with so much anger, hurt and frustration that the love bank is about gone?

Opinions,questions and suggestions are very much appreciated and sorry for the long post.

Hi Akita, the most glaring issue I see here is not necessarily the financial problems, but her ability to negotiate solutions that make you both happy. Do you envision her as someone who would be willing to take your feelings into account when decisions have to bemade? Because Harley has stated over and over again, that the success or failure of a marriage is largely contingent on the couples ability to use the policy of joint agreement. It looks to me like she might not be willing to do that. Harley talks about this here:

Choosing the Right one to Marry

The other big issue I see is that you have created a renters relationship by living together. Dr Harley outlines the kind of problems you often see in these live together situations and I see that many of them have already begun. Check this out: Living Together Before Marriage: Compatibility Test or Curse?


If I were you, I would email his radio show and tell him what you told us. He will give you an answer on the radio for free [it is all anonymous] and even send you a free book. Best of luck..

MelodyLane has given you some great advice.

One thing that concerns me is that financial security seems to be one of your very important needs. Even though your fiance makes a very good salary, she would have to change her basic attitudes toward money to be able to fulfill your needs in this area.

You say that she used to spend wildly. When did she stop? Was it shortly after the relationship started? Or is it something she figured out without your influence? If controlling the spending was due to trying to win you, I would be concerned that if you got married she would decide that she could revert to her "normal" ways of spending.

Please read this to see why I'm concerned: What is it LIke to be Married After Living Together?

Also, why have you been engaged for this long without getting married? Did you ever set a date for a wedding?

I agree with what MelodyLane has said here, she's offered some great advice.

They have a show on tv that gives financial advice, actually a couple of them, and this very situation was addressed recently. I believe it was Susie Orr that advised them to wait at least a year before getting married, giving him (he was the one in debt) time to demonstrate his needed changes and begin accomplishing his goals. It was very premature to move in together. When we act on our emotion without our brains fully engaged, it usually comes back to haunt us. You said it was against your judgment, in other words you let her coerce you into something you were comfortable with. That is a huge red flag! First that she would try to manipulate you into something you're not ready for and second that you'd let her. This type of interaction needs demonstrated change before you get married.

The other is her debt. Did you know that finances are one of the number one leading cause of divorce in America?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_n1_v91/ai_18930297/
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/311828/the_most_frequent_cause_of_divorce.html
People view money differently, depending on how they were raised. It can mean security, power, or just something to spend...some go through it as fast as comes...or even faster with plastic. Others budget and put away for a rainy day. Some are misers and will freeze to death with $500,000 in their account but no heat on. It's important that you come to agreement to realistically plan for your future and take care of the mess she's in.

Regarding her house/indebtedness, it is a hit many of us are in. Few of us predicted that the housing market would drop our homes value so drastically, and many in our country are upsidedown...then comes a job loss and we can't make our payments...next comes foreclosure and/or bankruptcy. With the laws the way we are, we still end up facing having to deal with the loss...in other words there's no way out. To keep from ruining our credit in the process is a huge feat.

You need to have a plan and arguing over finances or avoiding the issue altogether isn't going to help. If you can't agree to a healthy plan and stick to it, I would definitely part ways. She needs to dig her own hole out though...if you bail her out, she won't learn and what's to keep her from wracking up more indebtedness?

She can get a roommate to help share expenses and the help she gets from that can go to pay down her mortgage. It may take some time but eventually she can see her balance go down while the market picks up the value. If you see her demonstrating effort over a period of time, say a year or two, then you can marry...perhaps then she can rent out her house if they still aren't selling.

The other issue is your verbal abuse of her and whatever the issue is with her son. It's good that you got to know each other before marrying...if you can't work through these things together beforehand, I'd call off the marriage.

JMHO...

The Big Three in marriage are sex, religion, and money. You and your fiancee appear to be very incompatible in terms of money, so that to me would be a showstopper right there. It would be a source of frustration and anger in your relationship forever.

Moreover, as others said, the inability or lack of interest in negotiating a mutually agreeable solution is a red flag as well. You will have many things to discuss and negotiate over the years, and when one person refuses to do so, you will have a problem on your hands.

I believe you already know the answer, but my advice would be to thank your lucky stars that she moved out and you did not marry her, and to move on. I know this sounds cold, but I see too many issues to try to make something good out of this situation.

AGG

I did not explain the decision of her moving in with me well. It was her that suggested she move but she did not coerce me into the decision she is absolutely not like that. It was a decision we made together even though in the back of mind I was not comfortable doing so. When I was a lot younger I lived with a women that I really cared for and it ended up going south because we never did grow into a couple and instead focused on what was best for our-self just as the information in the link Melodylane provided.

This is the second time within a year I have asked her to move out. The first time she moved out we were not seeing each for awhile but we did start talking again and I thought we had resolved the issue of fighting about the problems we have had with her 21 year old son that does not live with us by the way. I missed having her around here and wanted her to move back in and just before we were moving her back in she again made a decision on her own regarding her son and once again the stubbornness set in and the decision she made left me resentful which also carried over into the recent issue. I realize now that when she made that decision I should have called off moving her back in.

Melodylane
Thank you for your opinion and the links. I will sit down tomorrow when I get some free time and email the radio show. I think you are correct I have just recently become aware that we don't fight about the problem so much as we fight over control of how to solve it. My fiance grew up in a very dysfunctional and abusive family and I think that is playing a part in her decision making.

She also lost custody of her 12 year old daughter six years ago and is being alienated from her by her ex and I am dealing with the death of my 12 year old son four years ago so neither of us are at our best game.

As for her envisioning her considering my feelings in decisions I have to say that she is a very intelligent and genuine caring person. In most issues we do work well in considering each other but in the two area's of her finances and her son it is like dealing with another person that is very stubborn and uncaring. I have jokingly called the possessed person that takes her over Connie Blue and when Connie Blue takes over I can actually see it. I know that if we could get Connie Blue out of the issues I would feel a lot more caring and loving towards her.


Kirby
She stopped the wild spending when she got divorce four years before I met her. The house payment is taking up most of her salary so she does not have any extra money to blow. I don't know what she would be like if she did not have the mortgage holding her back.

I would never set a wedding date with her because even though I could not fully understand what the problems were with us I knew things were not right to get married. I get it now that I was not fully committing to her and it was easy to live together and play house. At this point I would not go back to living together and if we could work together on really solving the problem I would fully commit to her and marry her, but man do we have a lot of work to do!


Kaycstamper
You are correct about a lot of people in trouble because of up-side down mortgages. What is causing me so much frustration with her is that she absolutely feels that she is in good financial shape because she is able to make the payments. She does not get it that if she has one stumble with her finances like job loss or sickness she is going to end up a statistic on a financial chart. Huge mortgage payments and huge drops in home values have caused millions of Americans to go bankrupt in the last few years and are the direct cause of 2008 crash. The biggest problem is that we are not near the bottom yet with more to come.


Agoodguy
Yes there were many red flags and I wish I would have interpreted them better. But as I said earlier I have not been at my best game but things are changing fast.


Well I am off to a graduation party I have looking forward to for a long time and I will check back in with all of you when I get home. Again thanks for the replies.

I'm sorry for your loss.

So, you met this woman shortly after you lost your son?

Why did your friend lose custody of her 6 year old daughter? That's pretty unusual. Also, I noticed you said she got divorced 4 years ago, so you met her just a few months after her divorce. It sounds like she has been married and divorced twice. Is that right? Do you know what led to the breakup of her marriages?

Kirby

Thank you for your kind words.

I may not have explained it well, I have been operating on about three hours of sleep a night for the last week.

She was divorced for about 4 years when I met her and yes I did meet her shortly after my son's death. But I will say that I would not have made it through the two years after his death without her. I will say that she is a fantastic women in so many ways and 99% of the time I feel lucky to have/had her in my life.

She lost custody of the daughter when the girl was 12 and yes the situation is very rare and unusual but I do not want to reveal the reason on a public form. It does seem to be a very sophisticated case of parent alienation by the ex husband and his new wife.

This alienation has and is causing a lot of damage to my fiance and her son as the father and daughter will have no contact with the mother or son. My fiance has not had any contact with her daughter in about five years and at times my fiance is grieving in the same way I have with the loss of my son.

The reason she is divorced is that her ex left for another women. She said her ex would refuse to talk to her because she gave him a headache. I think her ex was a dang fool for leaving her for another women because he had a dang good women. But unfortunatly I think I understand getting a headache when trying to talk about a serious issue with her

MelodyLane thank you for your great advice and superlative insight into situations. The issues were not over finances at all and it indeed was about failure to communicate,negotiate,compromise and commitment. I would have to say because of the power/control struggle.

It is because both of us failed to recognize what was going on in our relationship and to act on it to correct the problems before they created more problems. I think that living together made the it too easy for us to over-look what was really happening.

As for me taking ownership of my failures I would have to say that I forgot somewhere in this mess that she was more important than correcting her financial situation and I should have been way more caring about her and her feelings. I also let the frustration and anger get the best of me and turn into verbal abuse which is a definite no-go.

I did do the MB radio interview with the Harley's and let me say that I am not as goofy as I sounded. I am getting by on way too little sleep and I was nervous!

The one thing I disagree with Dr. Harley on was letting the bank just have the house back. That is not the way my former fiancee and I think or the way we were raised. Oddly enough that is one issue on her house that her and I strongly agreed on. In our situation I have the money available to bail her out but I do understand some people may not have it available and may have to walk away from the house.

After some time to think about this situation I have to say that there were a lot of options still remaining that we did not explore or utilize before I asked her to move out. Moving her out caused a lot unnecessary hurt for her that has really caused more problems and may well have ended our relationship. Another fine example of why living together is a bad idea.

I will say that our situation is much more complicated than what was posted here and talked about on the radio program. Most of you are reading between the lines and realize that the issues of her son and her losing custody of her daughter have not been disclosed because of obvious privacy reasons.

I have left the door open for her to communicate with me but at this point I don't hold out much hope for that happening.

Thanks again for your opinions and comments everyone. I will be watching this post for several days if anyone has any other idea's or thoughts.

Hey! I listened to it, and you did a great job.

I also agree with you and your former fiance about the house. I would not be comfortable trying to walk away from debt if I had a way to pay. It sounds like you and/or your fiance would be able to pay, it just would have been painful.

After reading your posts and listening to you on the show, I believe that you and she probably fulfilled a need in each others lives as you dealt with the losses of your children. But in the long run, the differences are great enough that marriage would be difficult. And you made it less likely to succeed by living together.

I'm sorry it didn't work out, but hopefully you learned some good things from this relationship and the next one will be more successful.

I'm sorry, but I have trouble with this statement.

You made have made the decision together, but clearly neither of you were following Dr. Harley's advice (POJA). Of course, your fiancee may not have any idea of you feelings of being uncomfortable with this scenario. Shouldn't she deserve to know?

The allure of companionship can be very great. As you've explained it here, let me respectfully ask you to to think long and hard about who's needs are being put first.

Maybe this will help. Ask yourself:
-What do I want for me?
-For this relationship?
-How would I act in order to get what I want?

My .02

Hi Akita! I didn't realize until yesterday that that was you on the radio show because I started listening about 5 minutes into that segment. Good job! You didn't sound goofy at all.

I think you caught what Dr Harley was trying to convey and that is the idea of brainstorming to find different solutions. While walking away from the mortgage may not be the solution for you, there could be other solutions that would suit you both.

He made an extremely valid point when he pointed out that this conflict was so intolerable to you that you asked her to move out.

Of course, all of this means nothing if there is no relationship to save. Do you think you can get this back on track and start off on a new foot?

I want to say also that I am very sorry you lost your son.

Just wanted to comment on this part. Doing things that make you uncomfortable almost always leads to disaster. When you make sacrifices like this and act against your principles, you set the stage for resentment and SCORE KEEPING. This is probably a big reason that you asked her to leave and you can see how much damage that caused. People who sacrifice keep score and when the score is not even, they make demands and engage in abusive tactics to settle the score. Sacrifice and compromise are destructive practices in a marriage.

If you do get her back, I would pledge to not sacrifice again, but learn how to find solutions that make you BOTH happy.

Your radio segments:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2948

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2949

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2950

Thanks! I am really worn out and tired with all this with my FF (former fiancee) and what is going on with my life.


I did catch that and the problem is I know there were more options but she has just worn me down to the point I quit on her.
We had a plan for the house but she has just worn me down so much with her son and her financial situation that I just quit on everything. I am not quieter but I have in this situation because of her stubbornness.



I will disagree with you on this point. I have learned a lot from this relationship even if it can not be saved. This relationship has made me a better person because of the good and the bad. I have got a lot out of it from my ff she really is a very good person with a heart of gold and has some outstanding traits about her that made me fall in love with her despite the issues that make me want to run away from her. I am a very strong person and even with dealing with the suicide death of my son I am glad that my ff was part of my life and helping her carry her baggage while I was carrying and dealing with my own enormous amount of baggage has made me stronger and a better person. It may have been a sacrifice at the time but now that I am where I am it is just something that made me stronger and a better person. It is kinda funny that she also helped me carry my baggage at the same time I was helping her. Looking at it now we were working together without the power/control issue and it was very nice and supportive.

I am now not the wounded person she first met and I don't know if she can handle someone that is a whole person with scares.

Can you get this back on track???
That is not quit worded correctly. With some time away from her and the great support I have received from some very good friends and this board I am looking at this situation as I should have a long time ago. It is not just my responsibility to fix this. She also has to come to the table with something to offer to really fix the problems this time. You are correct Melodylane in that I have made too many sacrifices and did not expect anything in-return or didn't think I was expecting anything in return. Now it is not a matter of can I do this, it is a matter of can we do this. It is now a case of can we do this together this time for us and that will mean she has to fight for us and she is going to have to reach inside herself and give this time. This may be to much to ask of her because of her childhood and 1st marriage-loss of her daughter has really messed her up and she is not a fighter plus I have really hurt her by asking her to move out. But I get it that if she can not overcome those issues she will not be any good for me.

Can I start off on a new foot??
Yes I can if she reaches out this time and can overcome the issues she has. I know that she loves me very much and that I love her very much for who she is despite all the bs we have handed each other. The big question here is can she and she feels that our relationship is very unstable just because of me?? Right now she is very hurt and sad and she is responding in the manner as she has always responded to personal hurt. Denial: She is refusing to admit that I exist or that she is not responsible for any of the instability in our relationship and she is applying her training and life experience as a supervisory psychiatric nurse which does not work here because I am not one of her patients or employees.

The second part of getting started on a new foot is that I am correcting my issues and working very hard to get myself squared away. I am also care enough about her that I want to know if she has some needs that I have not met.

Something I find interesting is that she is treating me exactly as her daughter is treating her. I know she does not like the way her daughter is acting and knows that the issue with them could be fixed if her daughter would just try something different like communicating.

I just want to add a little information here about her refusing any contact with me. She is refusing any contact with me or acknowledgment of me except I did send her an email telling her that I would pay for half the cost of the movers and she did respond letting me know what that cost was. Does this mean anything? and I did pay the entire cost to help her out.

If she would communicate with me I wanted to take the summer and just have some fun with her and repair the love busters first that have been created by both of us because she really is more important to me than anything else. Then I would like to work on the issues of her son and her financial situation that are causing the problem. But again she is hurt and doing things her way to maintain control and refusing to communicate with me. But I will add that her moving back in is not an option until we had the trust and commitment to get married.




MelodyLane your insight once again amazes me! But it is not her living with me that is the major problem but it did cause and compound our problems. I loved having her here and the extra time I got to spend with her and taking care of her. It is the problem with her son and finances and the way that she handles the situation that is actually causing the major problem. Just before she moved back in last August she once again put her son before me and that is what caused me some big time resentment. I allowed her to move back in and I should not have when she once again decided to do things her way no matter the effect it had on us. I did not hold any resentment against her son but I did for her. You are correct I did keep score and made sure I got more than even for the pain and problems she created. I did not hold it against her son, I did invite him to our house and treated him well because it was what I wanted to do. I wanted to fix the problems him and I had for myself because it was the right thing to do and I also did want to do it for my ff. But I did still hold a grudge against her for some odd reason. Does that make sense??


A few days and a few post ago I had left the door wide open for my ff and I to work this out. Now that door has closed, if she finds what it takes to knock on the door I will cautiously answer it and if she has something to bring to the table I will be glad to work on it with her for both of us. When we first met we were just meeting each others needs, but it actually turned into real love for each other out of appreciation and respect for the good things in each other despite or because of our wounds from life and our children.

My son died and I knew without a doubt what I had to deal with and it did just about kill me. But I am a very strong person and with the the help and love of my ff I did make it through the worst part of his death. I am healing well now and need her in a much different and healthier way now than then. But I don't know if she can do that. What do you all think from the information I have posted?

My ff on the other hand has had a life full of abuse and hurt from childhood and learned to cope with it in an unhealthy manner (mainly denial). She then lost her daughter, her daughter is not dead but is very estranged from her so she has no clear picture about the pain to expect or how to deal with it as I did. My ff does not try to control me but she does make odd decisions about her son and finances that affect us because that is some form of control she has with herself and her life. But she does not get the amount of frustration and anger is ends up costing me. At this point I don't know how to deal with this other than I know she is very intelligent and tries to work things out with a good solution and to move her out of the house. Right now the way she has handled the issue with her house I would relate to telling someone to get out of the street because a bus is coming down it and she feels that the only control she has is to say I am staying right here because I want to and that is what is important to me.

I am moving forward with my life with or without her. I have taken some steps that I needed to to make my life better and correct some issues that I have had. In the last three weeks many amazing things have occurred in my life. I have been estranged from my mother for seven years and last Friday I called her and then took her to lunch on Saturday and we are healing that relationship. I had a lot of anger and even hate for God because of my son's death, I got baptized on Sunday and found a great church and with that found the great gift of forgiveness for many and even somewhat for myself. I am very grateful that as things are now, that this was discovered before we did get married.

For some personal recreation I am going camping next week with some friends and it is the first time since my son died that I have been able to go camping without him. I am going back to Alaska next month. Last year we went there and I found some great healing in regards to my son. Then in Aug. I am going to Sturgis on my motorcycle with some friends.

I do thank you all for the kind words and thoughts about my son,
it does help.

I also appreciate your time and opinions in this thread.

It sounds to me like you are doing all the right things, so I have nothing to add, except that I think your perspective is very sound. All you can do is move forward with her or without her. Good luck, friend!

Yes, it's good to keep busy and not sit and pine for someone. (It also makes us more desirable when we're confident and happy rather than needy and sad).

MelodyLane thanks again for your opinion. I looked at some of your other post and I know that you help a lot of people with your amazing insight. You do seem to have a gift that I wish I had.

I gladly would like you as a friend, friend

I received the book that the Harley's sent me, Looking forward to reading it.