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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
My wife has expressed that she is not ok with that, unless we actually do have other plans with another couple or together.

This says it all!

Openness and Honesty are high needs of your wife's! You better pay attention to that...



Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Is it a lie or a white lie? I don't know man,,,,,

Let me help you with this one before you end up going down a rabbit hole with no return;

It's Dishonesty!

There is no such thing as a half-truth, white lie, partial truth, etc. .......

They are all 100% LIES

When you leave out information that suits you...... It's a blatent lie!

It really is simplier than you think.

I hope that helps you get a handle on it..... wink I need the reminders too!

It used to be tough for me to understand prior to four years ago, not so much anymore.... we must keep it simple.





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Originally Posted by HerPapaBear
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
My wife has expressed that she is not ok with that, unless we actually do have other plans with another couple or together.

This says it all!

Openness and Honesty are high needs of your wife's! You better pay attention to that...



Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Is it a lie or a white lie? I don't know man,,,,,

Let me help you with this one before you end up going down a rabbit hole with no return;

It's Dishonesty!

There is no such thing as a half-truth, white lie, partial truth, etc. .......

They are all 100% LIES

When you leave out information that suits you...... It's a blatent lie!

It really is simplier than you think.

I hope that helps you get a handle on it..... wink I need the reminders too!

It used to be tough for me to understand prior to four years ago, not so much anymore.... we must keep it simple.

I'm not debating you on this, but I do want your perspective on honesty as it is different from what I understand it to be. If we do not want to hang out with someone, whether it be friends, my mother, her mother, etc, should we always be radically honest and say, "I'm sorry I just don't want to hang out with you tonight." If my wife and I prefer to play Scrabble rather than hang out with someone, can we not say, "I'm sorry we already have plans?" Or are you saying it is ok to say we have plans if we already agreed to play Scrabble, but it is not ok to tell them "we have plans" unless we specifically already spoke to each other and made a decision we were gonna stay home and play Scrabble? See the difference?

You said, "When you leave out information that suits you...... It's a blatent lie!" So if it suits me to not admit that I do not want to hang out with a certain friend, family member, or individual, then I am in fact lying? I will say again I think it is perfectly ok to tell someone, "Thanks for the invite, but we already have plans!" It appears that you do not think making that statement is ok, am I correct in understanding you?


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
I don't offer to lie for my wife, instead I wanted to simply say, "We have other plans." My wife has expressed that she is not ok with that, unless we actually do have other plans with another couple or together. From my perspective, us watching tv on the couch or playing scrabble together constitutes "other plans."

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UA time is "having plans." UA time, as you two may be figuring out, are the most important plans of every single day.



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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
I don't offer to lie for my wife, instead I wanted to simply say, "We have other plans." My wife has expressed that she is not ok with that, unless we actually do have other plans with another couple or together. From my perspective, us watching tv on the couch or playing scrabble together constitutes "other plans."

[Linked Image from i717.photobucket.com]

UA time is "having plans." UA time, as you two may be figuring out, are the most important plans of every single day.

It is indeed! My wife went to the gym this morning at 530am. Her friend invited her to spin class, she asked me if it would be ok if she goes and I agreed. Baby woke up as soon as she left, this is pretty common. When my wife got home I asked her how class was, she said fine. She asked me how baby was and I told her that she had awakened as soon as she had left. I told my wife that one or two days a week would be totally cool with me if she wanted to work out with her friend, but that 3 days a week or more might be something I would not be enthusiastic about. Her faced changed, it became concerned. I asked her if she felt if her "freedom was gone" and she said "yes."

I tell you the story because this has been an issue in the past with my wife having a strong desire to run or workout with her friends. Part of this is because I have not filled that role in the past. I understand her position. I did propose we workout together after work each day, and she was not enthusiastic about that either because I've lectured her "form" and stuff before which was a stupid thing to do. She wants to work out with friends, not with me, and I can't make her. I am concerned though that my wife will begin to rekindle the "good ole days" of meeting at the gym 5 days a week and sometimes Saturday mornings, to which I'll definitely feel hurt and neglected once again so I need to make sure I don't just agree to it to keep the peace.


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
I don't offer to lie for my wife, instead I wanted to simply say, "We have other plans." My wife has expressed that she is not ok with that, unless we actually do have other plans with another couple or together. From my perspective, us watching tv on the couch or playing scrabble together constitutes "other plans."

[Linked Image from i717.photobucket.com]

UA time is "having plans." UA time, as you two may be figuring out, are the most important plans of every single day.

It is indeed! My wife went to the gym this morning at 530am. Her friend invited her to spin class, she asked me if it would be ok if she goes and I agreed. Baby woke up as soon as she left, this is pretty common. When my wife got home I asked her how class was, she said fine. She asked me how baby was and I told her that she had awakened as soon as she had left. I told my wife that one or two days a week would be totally cool with me if she wanted to work out with her friend, but that 3 days a week or more might be something I would not be enthusiastic about. Her faced changed, it became concerned. I asked her if she felt if her "freedom was gone" and she said "yes."

I tell you the story because this has been an issue in the past with my wife having a strong desire to run or workout with her friends. Part of this is because I have not filled that role in the past. I understand her position. I did propose we workout together after work each day, and she was not enthusiastic about that either because I've lectured her "form" and stuff before which was a stupid thing to do. She wants to work out with friends, not with me, and I can't make her. I am concerned though that my wife will begin to rekindle the "good ole days" of meeting at the gym 5 days a week and sometimes Saturday mornings, to which I'll definitely feel hurt and neglected once again so I need to make sure I don't just agree to it to keep the peace.

In fact the more I learn about MB and the more I think about it I'm not sure I feel good about her going to the gym with her friends or by herself anyways. She has told me about the flirting that goes on in spin class in the past, she is very attractive, etc. Flirting and sexual undertones are a part of spin classes, and my wife has also confirmed how shocked she was about all of the A's that were going in her gym. With where we are today in our marriage, and with the knowledge we have I'd say that the best plan to have our needs only met by each other is for her to discontinue going to her gym. Knowing all of this does not make feel secure. This negotiation is gonna be a doozy I believe. She enjoys it a lot, her friends go to it and will be "putting the pressure" on her to attend. I need to gather my thoughts an let her know how I feel about the subject.


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Hilltopper,

All I'm telling you is;

Don't ask your wife to lie.
And,
Don't lie to or for your wife.


I'm going to suggest that you ALWAYS POJA with each other prior to making plans with friends and family. You should never have to lie to anyone, just tell them you need to check with your spouse and you'll get back with them. If either of you aren't ENTHUSIASTIC about getting together with someone then just politely pass and move on. You don't need to let them down easy or lie, you just tell them you already have plans.

If your mom, or whomever, were to press you on what your plans are,,,,, You have a date scheduled with your wife for a scrabble game and some hot sex afterwards. Sorry if thats TMI mom, but you asked... lol

Neither of you should ever agree to plans with someone until your calender of UA time is set. ONLY after UA is met do you schedule anything else. And YES, a game of scrabble is a date time with your wife. It's really no ones business what your plans are, just that you have plans, unless you want to make them blush.








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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
In fact the more I learn about MB and the more I think about it I'm not sure I feel good about her going to the gym with her friends or by herself anyways. She has told me about the flirting that goes on in spin class in the past, she is very attractive, etc. Flirting and sexual undertones are a part of spin classes, and my wife has also confirmed how shocked she was about all of the A's that were going in her gym. With where we are today in our marriage, and with the knowledge we have I'd say that the best plan to have our needs only met by each other is for her to discontinue going to her gym. Knowing all of this does not make feel secure. This negotiation is gonna be a doozy I believe. She enjoys it a lot, her friends go to it and will be "putting the pressure" on her to attend. I need to gather my thoughts an let her know how I feel about the subject.

It is good you are taking the time to gather your thoughts on this. Think carefully. Many husbands are unhappy when their wives become unfit or overweight, and wish they could inspire them to go to the gym. You've got a fit and attractive wife who is rising at 5:30am to get her exercise done at the gym--with a baby at home yet!

If you take the gym away from her, she would likely miss the workouts and the endorphins they bring, not to mention the fitness benefits. She might miss that time with her friends, and she might resent you for taking it away from her. You might not enjoy her company as much if she gets pudgy, grumpy, and resentful.

Also, realistically, what kind of mischief could she possibly get up to at that hour with her baby waiting at home for her?

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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
In fact the more I learn about MB and the more I think about it I'm not sure I feel good about her going to the gym with her friends or by herself anyways. She has told me about the flirting that goes on in spin class in the past, she is very attractive, etc. Flirting and sexual undertones are a part of spin classes, and my wife has also confirmed how shocked she was about all of the A's that were going in her gym. With where we are today in our marriage, and with the knowledge we have I'd say that the best plan to have our needs only met by each other is for her to discontinue going to her gym. Knowing all of this does not make feel secure. This negotiation is gonna be a doozy I believe. She enjoys it a lot, her friends go to it and will be "putting the pressure" on her to attend. I need to gather my thoughts an let her know how I feel about the subject.


Even though I am not a vet, I think we share similar tendencies so I wanted to share a recent epiphany that relates to this. I thought I have been trying to do the POJA for a year now. The truth is, I haven't been doing it right because I have been focusing on me too much.

This morning, I did it correctly. My H wanted to go to the bar with work colleagues this Friday and I would normally say, "No, I am not comfortable with that because some of them are single women, you can't go." This time, instead of telling him no, I started negotiating. I said, "What if they came to our house so you can show them the recent renovations you did and I will make my appetizers you love?" He thought that was the best idea ever and immediately agreed. I got what I wanted, but not at his expense. In fact, I am kind of excited about it, I like to host. My old approach would have resulted in a fight, him claiming I am trying to take away his freedom, and him going anyway and probably staying longer just to spite me.

I do think we need to be able to tell our spouses when something bothers us. But, we need to think about how we can make them happy in the process. We don't want to remove their happiness in order to increase ours. What if you got workout equipment at home so she could sleep in an hour longer rather than driving to the gym? What if you went with her but worked out on different machines? What if you two took up a new hobby together like racquetball or tennis? Get creative and try to think about things that could make you both happy.

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Originally Posted by josie12
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
In fact the more I learn about MB and the more I think about it I'm not sure I feel good about her going to the gym with her friends or by herself anyways. She has told me about the flirting that goes on in spin class in the past, she is very attractive, etc. Flirting and sexual undertones are a part of spin classes, and my wife has also confirmed how shocked she was about all of the A's that were going in her gym. With where we are today in our marriage, and with the knowledge we have I'd say that the best plan to have our needs only met by each other is for her to discontinue going to her gym. Knowing all of this does not make feel secure. This negotiation is gonna be a doozy I believe. She enjoys it a lot, her friends go to it and will be "putting the pressure" on her to attend. I need to gather my thoughts an let her know how I feel about the subject.

It is good you are taking the time to gather your thoughts on this. Think carefully. Many husbands are unhappy when their wives become unfit or overweight, and wish they could inspire them to go to the gym. You've got a fit and attractive wife who is rising at 5:30am to get her exercise done at the gym--with a baby at home yet!

If you take the gym away from her, she would likely miss the workouts and the endorphins they bring, not to mention the fitness benefits. She might miss that time with her friends, and she might resent you for taking it away from her. You might not enjoy her company as much if she gets pudgy, grumpy, and resentful.

Also, realistically, what kind of mischief could she possibly get up to at that hour with her baby waiting at home for her?

I'm not worried about my wife ever not being attractive to me, she is too fit with our without the gym for that to happen. I'm not worried that she'll even "get into mischief" at the gym. What my concern is that she may find another source to meet her ENs better than I can at this stage in our marriage. That is prohibitive to our Love Banks becoming filled. It is not that I don't think I am not able to meet her needs as well as another, it is that I'm still learning to do so, and that takes time. In the past she spent an inordinate amount of time with her friends I'm sure because it felt good, but that was without her husband. So while I DO want her to have a fulfilling workout life, I DO NOT want her to have that workout life take precedence over our marriage. I grew resentful in the past about it and she knows this. I don't want her to feel that I'm attempting to "cut out her freedom" but I have a history of agreeing to everything and then being sorry I did so in the past and so I need to think it through and be honest about it up front.


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Originally Posted by josie12
If you take the gym away from her, she would likely miss the workouts and the endorphins they bring, not to mention the fitness benefits. She might miss that time with her friends, and she might resent you for taking it away from her. You might not enjoy her company as much if she gets pudgy, grumpy, and resentful.

Also, realistically, what kind of mischief could she possibly get up to at that hour with her baby waiting at home for her?

This is not MB advice. Take some time to get to understand the Mb program before giving advice.


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Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
Originally Posted by josie12
If you take the gym away from her, she would likely miss the workouts and the endorphins they bring, not to mention the fitness benefits. She might miss that time with her friends, and she might resent you for taking it away from her. You might not enjoy her company as much if she gets pudgy, grumpy, and resentful.

Also, realistically, what kind of mischief could she possibly get up to at that hour with her baby waiting at home for her?

This is not MB advice. Take some time to get to understand the Mb program before giving advice.

Thanks KT, I didn't think it was. No offense Josie.


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Originally Posted by josie12
If you take the gym away from her, she would likely miss the workouts and the endorphins they bring, not to mention the fitness benefits. She might miss that time with her friends, and she might resent you for taking it away from her. You might not enjoy her company as much if she gets pudgy, grumpy, and resentful.

Also, realistically, what kind of mischief could she possibly get up to at that hour with her baby waiting at home for her?

All you are saying here is that she should place her friends and her workouts above him. How in the world would that help their marriage? crazy That advice does not comport with Marriage Builders at all. Maybe you could familiarize yourself with MB before you give out advice here?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
What my concern is that she may find another source to meet her ENs better than I can at this stage in our marriage. That is prohibitive to our Love Banks becoming filled.

Bingo. She is creating a "point of comparison" -- she enjoys being with her friends at the gym a whole lot, and she compares it to the time she has with you, and she likes the gym a whole lot more. This will make it difficult for YOU to fill her Love Bank.

I've posted to her about this before, but I don't know if she remembers. The two of you need to be each other's favorite recreational companion. Until that is a reality, you do not need to be spending time away from each other doing your own thing.


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Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
What my concern is that she may find another source to meet her ENs better than I can at this stage in our marriage. That is prohibitive to our Love Banks becoming filled.

Bingo. She is creating a "point of comparison" -- she enjoys being with her friends at the gym a whole lot, and she compares it to the time she has with you, and she likes the gym a whole lot more. This will make it difficult for YOU to fill her Love Bank.

I've posted to her about this before, but I don't know if she remembers. The two of you need to be each other's favorite recreational companion. Until that is a reality, you do not need to be spending time away from each other doing your own thing.

Gosh I'm glad you agree, the gym thing scares the heck out of me on a lot of levels. This is all part of the interdependence thing we are both gonna have to get used to. It is easier for me than it is for her. My only regular buddy I used to golf with moved to another state, so the rest of my friends are other couples that are also friends with my wife. My wife on the other hand has dozens of friends that she regularly communicates with. I love that she is social with them as they have small children like we do and most of it revolves around activities. The gym part however is not related to the kids, and that is the one that bothers me.


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So in an attempt to avoid the dreaded "cycle" my wife and I get into about every 3-5 days, I picked up the workbook this morning and read all LBs and ENs for my wife. I think awareness is key here. The cycle as you recall used to be every two days, so we are doing much better. We had a great conversation, mostly about MB, but also how it was growing up in each of our families. It was really nice to have my wife open up and just share some stories from her youth. I hope she enjoyed the stories I shared as well.

Tomorrow night we've planned a Date Night which is critical since out of the house date we had was Saturday Night. My wife has been tracking our UA time and last night we got in about an hour. It would have been longer but baby has been waking back up about 830pm each night for a short period of time, and only wants my wife to get her back down. That is stressful to her.


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Great, Hilltopper! Do you feel like your proactiveness is paying off? Are you keeping a lid on the demands, disrespect, and anger?

Grace tracking UA time is huge. Be sure and express your appreciation for this level of dedication from her!


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Originally Posted by markos
Great, Hilltopper! Do you feel like your proactiveness is paying off? Are you keeping a lid on the demands, disrespect, and anger?

Grace tracking UA time is huge. Be sure and express your appreciation for this level of dedication from her!

Being proactive is a good thing, but again I think for me personally it is more about being aware of what is going on at all times. I know a couple times yesterday and once this morning, something "bothered" me. It was something my wife said or a look on her face, but I couldn't pin point it. We're not talking blatant things, but nevertheless I felt them. Before I respond if I do respond at all I'm trying to get her mind and understand how she feels.

Last night we did talk a bit more about a vasectomy vs other options. Its not just fear of a vasectomy, there is another issue that would need to be taken care of along with it and I told her that. It is not a 20 minute deal, and certainly not a 48 recovery. I asked her if she would just at least research an be open to discussing things and she was kind of "hand to the face about it." She definitely held the "no sex until we get something done" in my face, that didn't feel good. I told her that what she said kind of bothered me and that "it appears you've already decided for us." We decided to stop discussing at that point and she made sure to say that "she didn't mean it that way." At this point in time I do not believe we've agreed to anything and the only options on the table for her were either wearing condoms, a vasectomy, or no sex. She has reminded me now 30 times that she would have been willing to get tied during the birth of the last kid, but that even that may potentially cause hormonal imbalance problems. I guess what I'm saying is, it has been presented to me that it is in my court to take care of it and that she is unwilling to put anything in her body because she is one that barely likes to take tylenol. She said the same thing about the possibility of taking Welbutrin for depression. I really don't feel like a negotiation is taking place on this subject and as I sit here, it really bothers me a lot on a few levels. One is no sex, which is my #1 EN, but I understand her point of not wanting a fourth child. Another one is that the POJA isn't really POJA because the options are all for me to "make it happen". Lastly I'm scared of feeling neglected as I did before which doesn't bode well for my personality at the present time.


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Well, POJA would say that until you decide, you don't have sex. I might be inclined to wear a condom then. You said it's not just a 20 min procedure and 48 hours recovery time. I'm confused. What do you mean by this statement?

For me it was a 46 min procedure from check in until walking out of the clinic and about a 72 hour downtime on the couch. I was back in the gym within 2 weeks doing lighter stuff and then back to squatting and deadlifting within 3-4 weeks.

But you're right. She's not POJAing it.


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The vasectomy has a higher chance of side effects than the IUD. FWIW. And, a higher chance of accidental pregnancies.

The copper IUD is a non hormonal option for your wife. However, I love my hormonal, low dose IUD. I have a high risk of blood clots and heart issues, and the IUD was cleared for me. Until my Lupus is stabilized a pregnancy could be life threatening for me, if I can ever carry to term.

There's a newly approved birth control pill for men, which I know nothing of, but it might be an option.


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Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
Well, POJA would say that until you decide, you don't have sex. I might be inclined to wear a condom then. You said it's not just a 20 min procedure and 48 hours recovery time. I'm confused. What do you mean by this statement?

For me it was a 46 min procedure from check in until walking out of the clinic and about a 72 hour downtime on the couch. I was back in the gym within 2 weeks doing lighter stuff and then back to squatting and deadlifting within 3-4 weeks.

But you're right. She's not POJAing it.

I need something removed, not life threatening, just better to get it out which makes it more complicated for me. The do nothing part means no sex, I get that.


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