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hurray


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
Originally Posted by heartfelt_1
t/j
vanilla, i was fullmoon...don't know how to provide a link (and not all that interested in bringing that back up anyhow). frown like 180 i am not proud, either, for any negative way i have impacted you.
Thanks for answering. I thought that was you. And even if you are "not interested" in rehashing that, I think it would serve you well to put it on your thread and own it. I think it will only help you grow.
Sorry, MS/180, but threadjacking starts to happen when you leave your thread for too long... smile

I spent the entire day yesterday trying to think of what to write to...

... "own" the things posted in my prior thread,

...explain what I have done to implement MB principles in the time that has passed,

...to construct a post that would be not honest but radically honest.

And I came up with nothing. ...not because I don't want to. But when I focus on this issue (the friend) everything just gets confused. I'm trying to forget the whole thing.

I think if we all agree with my husband that this was a nothing...an adolescent infatuation, at best...we can move onto the fundamental MB principles (like focusing on ENs, no LB-ing, the RC and UA). <-- I thought this could work. I mentioned that I was in a "fogged out" state in my first new post. Maybe my thinking the above means I am still foggy.

I want to grow; that's why I am still lurking around here. I just don't know what to do. DH is not going to give up the friend. He is absolutely NOT going to give him up. I don't fully understand that. I think a huge part of him not giving up the friend is that he will have to admit (in his mind) that he gave up the friend because of my love/lust/feelings for the friend, he'd have to admit that I love his friend/another man....and he CANNOT accept that.

I told him to read the texts. I gave him my phone. He told me he is not reading the fu*** texts. He does not want to hear about me being in love with some dude for two years. He does not want to hear about me wanting to f*** some other dude. He only wants to hear that I love only him. "This is over. You don't like anyone else. There. Done." He said that I am never to talk to him about this ever again. I am afraid I am hurting him by revisitng this over and over and over and over again.

...so I want(ed) to focus on making the marriage so strong, so renewed with romantic love, that his friend (in comparison) is not even a blip on my radar...

DH does not want to read the emails. DH will not read this MB site. And he hates this site...he thinks this site is putting all of these ridiculous ideas in my head. But I know how I feel...and I know this site has made so much sense to me. I have learned...I didn't even know that there was such a thing as EA before I began my research...and this site explained the anatomy of affairs, Mark's explanation of the chemical effects of love on the brain (didn't know that, either). Awhile ago this site was a lifeline to me. Even though I was the drowning person who was panicking, fighting the lifeguard, and making the rescue d*mn near impossible...you encouraged me to expose to DH (in a single day).

I don't like purposely thinking about the friend so much.

I was doing okay, I don't know about the text...I do. He had a big argument with his girlfriend. <--DH and his GF told me that.

Umm...okay, I read Resonance's thread Starting Over?. I see she is no longer here. I see how she thought she was overcoming her wayward mind and...she is not here anymore. I don't know what that means...but I hope it means she was successful. (I doubt it.) <--Maybe she'd like to tell me herself. I see 180 has been run off in a day or two. I hope she comes back. But I see that we WWs struggle...but I want to struggle and win. I want to be a success story. I want to be able to truthfully advise newbies that it can be done. ...that you can take someone as tough as fullmoon, 180, resonance, saddestwife...I can't remember who else...and they can be completely defogged and better than ever.

Unfortunately, DH is not in it with me...so I have to do it by myself. *sigh*

Vanilla, I don't know if you consider that "owning" it...I don't mind "owning" it, I just don't know what to do about it. And I didn't want to dig all this stuff up again so that I can move on. But I see...I can't get to step 2 without completing step 1.



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Quote
I want to be a success story. I want to be able to truthfully advise newbies that it can be done. ...that you can take someone as tough as fullmoon, 180, resonance, saddestwife...I can't remember who else...and they can be completely defogged and better than ever.
heartfelt, I think you ARE a success story! I can sense your remorse and desire for a great marriage from here!

You know, you can't 'make' your H get on board with Marriage Builders, but you CAN show him the affects of following the program.

I think it's very selfish that he refuses to give up the OM/walking time bomb as a friend. That doesn't mean that YOU need to be around him. Will your H respect your need for him to keep OM away from you? Will he meet OM away from you and the house?

Concentrate on your personal healing, heartfelt. It's always so encouraging to me to read the posts of former waywards.

Sadly, not all WW's come back. I know that at least one of the other posters you mentioned is still extremely wayward and foggy. She refused to follow the MB program and bailed after hearing advice she didn't like. It's pretty sad, really. I think life is too short to live in misery. So stay here and work MB - I want you to continue to be a success story. I want other posters in your same sitch to read your thread and know there's hope.

Last edited by maritalbliss; 08/28/11 06:58 AM.

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Originally Posted by maritalbliss
That doesn't mean that YOU need to be around him. Will your H respect your need for him to keep OM away from you? Will he meet OM away from you and the house?

No, he is not going to agree. I believe that... DH is trying to prove to me that this is "nothing" (by refusing to change a thing). DH wants us to interact and treat each other like regular friends. He wants me to see his friend with the GF-- so I can see that the friend does not love me.

Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Sadly, not all WW's come back. I know that at least one of the other posters you mentioned is still extremely wayward and foggy. She refused to follow the MB program and bailed after hearing advice she didn't like. It's pretty sad, really. I think life is too short to live in misery. So stay here and work MB - I want you to continue to be a success story. I want other posters in your same sitch to read your thread and know there's hope.


Bliss, Thank you for the encouraging words/vote of confidence. I realize I still have a lot of work to do. Over a year has passed and I only realized a week ago the difference between me being honest and me being "radically" honest. And...even though DH will not agree to separate his friend and me, I could have been more committed to staying away from him. (I could have, for instance, had "other plans" whenever we all were to hang out.) This sort of thing I must do and I cannot skip these steps.

I NEED to be successful with this.


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NC letter: 09/13/11 (against DH's will)
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And...even though DH will not agree to separate his friend and me, I could have been more committed to staying away from him. (I could have, for instance, had "other plans" whenever we all were to hang out.) This sort of thing I must do and I cannot skip these steps.
Yes. You've got it. You understand it, even though your H does not. This is an EP you need to take. I'm sorry your H doesn't respect your wish to do this. That will make it harder for you, but it's still doable.

Quote
I NEED to be successful with this.
It's a shame that your H isn't on board with you about this, but you can still be successful. Hang in there, heartfelt. You can do it! weightlifter


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I know that I must work on the issue with DH's friend first but here's an example of why I want to work on making the marriage better:

Right now DH is throwing away a lot of my toiletries. He says that we don't need them, I don't use them, and it is unnecessarily taking up space. He has asked me how I feel about him throwing my stuff away several times. I told "No". He keeps asking. Finally I say, "I already told you how I feel. Just throw it away!" He is throwing it away.

I tell him not to change my phone or computer. He wants me having the most updated technology. He changes it ANYWAY.

I tell him that I have feelings for his friend and he should stop being his friend. He says, "No, you don't."...and chooses not to give up the friend.

There is something that I have to fix in this marriage...that has nothing to do with his friend.

I told him all about MB, the concepts, the love bank (he thinks is weird), ENs, LB-ing, UA time, PoJA, EAs vs. PAs. He doesn't think we need it because HE doesn't need it. We have the workbook; he won't do it.

What can I do about this?


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It appears that your H is more about control than companionship. It may be his culture, but it seems he thinks he knows what you want and need better than you do. Which is certainly not the case. You will resent him after a while if this continues. It is a form of disrespect or DJ. He knows what you want and need even if it's not what you want or need.

A bit chauvinistic.

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Originally Posted by heartfelt_1
Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
[quote=heartfelt_1]t/j
vanilla, i was fullmoon...don't know how to provide a link (and not all that interested in bringing that back up anyhow). frown like 180 i am not proud, either, for any negative way i have impacted you.
Thanks for answering. I thought that was you. And even if you are "not interested" in rehashing that, I think it would serve you well to put it on your thread and own it. I think it will only help you grow.
Sorry, MS/180, but threadjacking starts to happen when you leave your thread for too long... smile

fullmoon/heartfelt, I am heartened by your post in response to this. However, I don't think there's anything you need to *do* other than continue trying to learn and grow. I suggested what I said earlier because I do think it's helpful for you to supply that information for others here on the board - for your benefit in being radically honest with yourself, and for a courtesy to those posting to you/reading along. I didn't suggest it in order to open up the gates for a 2x4 flood, and I don't think that will happen as long as you continue on the path of humility and discovery that you seem to be on.

(Wow, I sound all high-horsed, don't I? I will be the first to admit I am in no position to be, well, on my high horse. Having a hard time picking the right words, so hopefully you understand what I'm saying.)

As far as your situation w/ DH and the friend -- as you and maritalbliss have been discussing, you control you. It'd be ideal if your DH were on board, but in lieu of that, guard your actions and implement your own EPs to still protect your M, your DH, and you.

There are a number of times where I have seen posters here with a reluctant spouse off the boards, and I suspect you will get good ideas on how to work MB and, hopefully, introduce it in a way your DH will be accepting of eventually.

Welcome back. smile


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I found your new thread so moved my response to your thread instead of highjacking the other thread.

Originally Posted by heartfelt_1
Originally Posted by violette
I read your previous thread. Your husband and my husband are alike with their lack of any emotions. I would be curious to hear an update on whether or not you were able to work things out.

t/j

Violette,

Welcome to MB. I see that you are a fairly new member (of a few weeks). I have read only your first post (of your thread) but I will read them all. NO, DH and I have not worked it out yet. Of course, he doesn't think there is anything that we need to "work out" or "work on". I don't have the answers...but should I discover them, I will be sure to let you know. wink I cannot give out much advice (or any, really) since I am fairly new myself even given my prior posting history.

Only I do want to say.........(from your first post on your thread) I did notice that you have a male friend that is meeting a need of yours...and that is what DH's friend did for me. I know how much trouble that can be. Now I have to suffer through digging myself out of that deep hole. It does not feel good to go through that process. I did learn that I must maintain "extraordinary precautions" and not allow other men to meet my needs. I am certain that you have already been advised about that. smile I will follow your story and wish you the best.

Thanks. I am not really welcome here but can't seem to leave so I switched to lurking. I stopped posting on my thread because I do not want to upset people or waste anyone's time. Maybe, eventually I will be convinced that they are right and I am wrong.

I can't give you any marriage advice but my husband is similar to your husband.

My husband does not know how to love. He avoids any conversation that deals with emotions. If he gets angry at someone or they screw up, he will just shut down and ignore them. Never apologizes or admits he is wrong.

He also tells me how I should feel. When I told him I was depressed and suicidal. He told me to stop being negative and that everyone has problems. Whenever I try to share how I feel, he tells me that my feelings are silly, crazy, stupid, negative or wrong.

He also believes I will never cheat so does not feel a need to protect our marriage. He has no problem with me coming home at one in the morning. When I told him that I was over the OM house, he just asked how he was doing. No questions about why I was there or what were we doing. As long as I take care of the house and kids and am available when he needs me, he does not care where I am or what I do. I am just his wife and can be easily replaced with any other woman.

I have a hard time buying that we can't get our emotional needs met outside the marriage. I know it is not the ideal way to get them met but my husband is not willing or capable to meet my needs so I go else where. I never heard of EA until recently. I discussed them with my therapist and determined that I have had EA throughout the 20 years of marriage. I have always had a special male friend. I never felt it was wrong and my husband always knew about them. And until recently, they were always married. I just have a hard time thinking of it as any different than having a female friend. They were not sexual. Not even flirty. And never close to being physical. And it is not like I think about them all the time. Anymore than I would daydream about a female friend.

I will follow along your thread. It may give me hope if you can breakthrough your husband's walls. You are doing great dealing with a difficult situation.

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I saw one of your posts HF, and I usually like to read the whole thread of someone before giving advice, but something stuck out in the post, that made think I could shoot a little from the hip

I am posting on IPhone so I will keep it short

You seem to get it, that you have to do something, take action, ownership and responsibility for the state of the marriage

Your Wh seems to not get that yet.

He should be as involved as you are in this but seems stuck somewhere.

Just keep breathing the cool air of enlightenment for now

Will post more later

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t/j Violette, please don't feel that you're not welcome here! You had affairs and won't come clean with your BH. That's a problem that is going to cripple any attempt you wish to make in having a healthy, romantic relationship with the man you married.

We aren't damning YOU - we're damning the SIN of your infidelity and continued deceit of hiding the truth from your unsuspecting husband. Believe it or not, our words are intended to HELP you. Please understand that.

Lurking is great - MB can only help you. But why not stop lurking and have a conversation with us? Don't be afraid. Fear is crippling.


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Shaken,
Originally Posted by shaken
It appears that your H is more about control than companionship. It may be his culture, but it seems he thinks he knows what you want and need better than you do.
Yes, it may be his culture. And I understand �a man being a man� and requiring a certain amount of control. I am actually very stubborn myself so he does not run all over me by any means. But I just don�t feel like I am being heard. At the very least, I should be able to say how I feel�and he trust that this is indeed how I feel. I am trying to figure out how to get him to understand this.

Originally Posted by shaken
It is a form of disrespect or DJ. He knows what you want and need even if it's not what you want or need.
Yes, I have started the workbook on my own and I listed this as a DJ. Now�how to solve it???

In any case, I know I have my own faults�and I am willing to list them here. Perhaps, if I work on my own faults and he sees my improvement, he will be more open to considering that he may have one or two of his own. wink Who knows?


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NC letter: 09/13/11 (against DH's will)
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Vanilla,
Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
�I didn't suggest it in order to open up the gates for a 2x4 flood, and I don't think that will happen as long as you continue on the path of humility and discovery that you seem to be on.

(Wow, I sound all high-horsed, don't I? I will be the first to admit I am in no position to be, well, on my high horse. Having a hard time picking the right words, so hopefully you understand what I'm saying.)

Welcome back. smile
Thank you for the �Welcome back.� I hope to keep the fog down to a minimum this time around. But I won�t count my chickens before they hatch. (lol)

And you don�t sound like you�re on a high horse. Several people have told me that I should address the issue with husband�s friend. I had been trying to just leave it behind since the friend is going to be in my life as long as DH keeps him in his own life (even if that�s because DH is mentioning his name to me every other day). I don�t exactly know how I will deal with that except to tune DH out as much as I can (at those times). Hopefully, as I work on the marriage and physically stay away from the friend, it will matter less and less over time.
Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
There are a number of times where I have seen posters here with a reluctant spouse off the boards, and I suspect you will get good ideas on how to work MB and, hopefully, introduce it in a way your DH will be accepting of eventually.
I hope so! Looking forward to it!

Last edited by heartfelt_1; 08/28/11 05:08 PM. Reason: spacing

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Violette,
You are welcome here.

If it is okay with you, though, I am going to post to your thread after this response (so that we can talk about your story and keep all of your information together). I am glad that you are still lurking here and still hoping to find *something* here: hope, change, help??? I hope you choose not to disappear because I am certain that you will find a lot of useful information here.

I can tell you from personal experience that it is NOT EASY at all to listen to what these people have to say about you. You feel overwhelmed. BUT they are trying to force some sense into you. You and I are both that addict or �falling down drunk��and they are determined to get through to us.

Originally Posted by violette
My husband does not know how to love. He avoids any conversation that deals with emotions. If he gets angry at someone or they screw up, he will just shut down and ignore them. Never apologizes or admits he is wrong.

He also tells me how I should feel. When I told him I was depressed and suicidal. He told me to stop being negative and that everyone has problems. Whenever I try to share how I feel, he tells me that my feelings are silly, crazy, stupid, negative or wrong.

He also believes I will never cheat so does not feel a need to protect our marriage. He has no problem with me coming home at one in the morning. When I told him that I was over the OM house, he just asked how he was doing. No questions about why I was there or what were we doing. As long as I take care of the house and kids and am available when he needs me, he does not care where I am or what I do. I am just his wife and can be easily replaced with any other woman.

All of this sounds very familiar to me. But what I am going to try to do is work on myself with the hope that this will encourage my DH to get on board at some point. I don�t really have the answers for it. Yes, keep following along; perhaps we will both learn a thing or two.

Originally Posted by violette
I have a hard time buying that we can't get our emotional needs met outside the marriage. I know it is not the ideal way to get them met but my husband is not willing or capable to meet my needs so I go else where. I never heard of EA until recently. I discussed them with my therapist and determined that I have had EA throughout the 20 years of marriage. I have always had a special male friend. I never felt it was wrong and my husband always knew about them. And until recently, they were always married. I just have a hard time thinking of it as any different than having a female friend. They were not sexual. Not even flirty. And never close to being physical. And it is not like I think about them all the time. Anymore than I would daydream about a female friend.


I don�t know enough to advise you and I am not far enough along on my own recovery but I do have some thoughts about what you�ve written. I never heard of EA before until I started this research after developing feelings for my husband�s friend. And I thought flirting was a normal part of socializing.

But I believe in what MB says about EA because�I was feeling all of these things, I didn�t know what was �happening to me�, and I started reading this MB information�and it explained what I was going through step by step. You would think I would have written the words myself! How could MB know this stuff?!? How could MB know what I was going through?!? MB knows because it is the truth, it is not so shocking after all, my situation is not so different from so many other people going through the same thing. Neither is yours.

And what I hear from MB is that this EA is going to turn PA. They are not saying �maybe� or �possibly� or �it could�; they are saying �it will�. MB listed every other step I went through�why would MB be wrong about that last step? I don�t think they are. �especially since I know that I have changed how I dress to impress this man, think about him all the time, have considered us being together intimately. Maybe you have done the same with this guy who you consider to be the type of husband you would want.

I don�t want to take the chance to find out whether it will happen or not. I want out.

I have never had any other special male friends. I cannot keep male friends. They always want to sleep with me or vice versa. That�s the truth. I let down my guard around this one man because he was my DH�s friend and presumably no threat to me or my marriage. Wrong. He hasn�t taken only because he is waiting for me to give. I�m trying to get the he77 out of there. smile

You already have enough on your plate. You have to address the physical affairs, the depression, your DH�s emotions (or lack thereof). You don�t need the EA on top of it. Do you?

I don�t know if you have looked at the link Anatomy of Adultery. (I don�t yet know how to create a link.) Someone posted it on my thread. But it is from a study of churchgoing people who admitted to unfaithfulness. Notice how the EA gradually grows closer to PA. I found myself in there. Do you find yourself there?

You say you have a tough time making it through life alone. Well you don�t need your EA partner to make it through. You have us. smile

I am not to give advice, I know. And if I have said something out of place, vets, I know you will let me know. Just hang in there, Violette. Try as much as possible not to be obstinate; really think about what they are saying. We can go through at the same time�and be better people for it.

Last edited by heartfelt_1; 08/28/11 07:11 PM.

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It is aggravating that I see so many WWs disappear. I want to see them succeed and have hope for myself. It took me SO LONG to move forward.

So as an update... (OM) sent me another message in the form of song lyrics that was just...too much pressure. I ended up writing a NC letter to OM and his GF without my DH's approval. I figured at this point, I might lose him if I write it but I'd definitely lose him if I didn't.

This is Day 9 post NC letter and I feel like something that has been...I feel awful. There is a huge difference between passive "no contact" and an NC letter (I see). With this NC letter, I know that I hurt and/or angered OM. OM does not do well with "abandonment" (which I knew beforehand) and I am imagining all kinds of things about how he hates me (as if that should matter). I know that I have "betrayed" him (OM) and there is no turning back.

OM talked to DH about it the next day. DH was quite annoyed with me-- said that he didn't want to come home to me that evening. OM, then, proceeded to invite DH out with him for Friday night (DH didn't end up going)...then, they hung out on Tuesday and were planning to yesterday (until I had an AO).

I felt so bad about discarding GF with no warning that I apologized to her. I have not communicated with OM...but I am confused. With DH being his friend, does that count as my "contact"? Yes?

In other words, is this a lost cause?


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You are on the right track.
Sorry that your husband is in denial and not trying to help you. It is like hearing the fire alarm and trying to wake him up, but he is convinced it is fals alarm and wants to keep sleeping.

At least you are awake.

Although I agree, that it is much easier when you have no contact with this man, this seems to bee difficult to achieve at this point in time.
There are things you can do though. You do not have to hang out with him. If your husband invites him, go to your sport studio and work out. That way you will not only look fantastic, but you will not be seeing him. (or go visit a girlfriend.)

I would also reccomend, that you tell the girlfriend that he has beene-mailing/texting you and that it is beginning to affect you in ways you don't like. You can show her the texts, so that she knows, and you can tell her, that you have decided you want to have no contact with him anymore, and consequently won't be spending time with her anymore. (if you didn't tell her this in any no-contact letter you wrote.)

Try to spend as much enjoyable time with your husband as you can. You know, it takes at least 6-8 weeks trying as hard as you can to reconnect. It may take a bit longer in your case, because of not-ideal contacts of your husband with OM.

Just tell your husband, he is right, and he is a better man for you than OM could ever be. You know deep in your heart, that it is true, and that you deserve better, than a man who is sexting another man's wife between his girlfriends and 'best' friends back.
Tell him also, that you want to get over your childish crush on the OM, and that you will not be parttaking in joint outings anymore and insist that he does not speak about him anymore. He wants you to be happy, right? Then he should at least keep his mouth shot.

Of course it is tricky if the other man is only an arm's length away, but you must try for the time being, and maybe work out another idea in the long run, when you and your husband become closer.

1
You should change phone- and e-mail numbers, or maybe have a joint e-mail-account.

2
Try to treat this to yourself as an addiction. Sadly, alcoholics don't get to live in a alcohol-free world, but many make it notwithstanding.

3
Can you expose yourself to some friends or familymembers of you, so they can give you back-up when you are tempted?

Women generally help their husband when he is feeling low. The sad thing is, not many men are emotionally equipped to deal with a woman who is feeling low. And research even suggest that they become LESS emotionally available and less pationt when their wives are struggling. (Sorry to all the men, I do not want to generalize, I know you her on MB are very consious of your wives feelings.) He probably never learned how to react properly and it totally in the dark.

You are absolutely not a lost cause. You will have to work harder for the time being. And if you have a setback, don't give up. Just stand up if you fall and keep going. You seem to be a strong intelligent woman, even if you don't feel like it.

Exposing was not a bad thing, but the girlfriend needs to know, to what extent her boyfriend whas pursueing you.

Keep going and start making your marriage better.
Good luck and God bless,

Happyheart.

Last edited by happyheart; 09/23/11 09:10 AM.

me, DH
all the children
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