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Goodnight, Hilltopper, both of you need to get some stronger boundaries!

Both of your behavior was inexcusable at best. doh2 You're both peering over the slippery slope, wondering how close to the edge you can get before slipping down it.

Have you read about Extraordinary Precautions?


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I don't know, I don't know, and I don't know.
You DO know. It felt good.


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Does Grace know about the sexual innuendo between you and that woman?


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Originally Posted by Prisca
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I don't know, I don't know, and I don't know.
You DO know. It felt good.

No not really, this friend of my wife's has been that way as long as I've known her. She doesn't appeal to me in the slightest bit, and no it didn't feel good. Nevertheless it was inappropriate.


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
We agreed to be selfish about time alone with each other and both feel that if we accomplish that most other things will fall in line. It worked before and it will again.

I think that's probably essentially true.

Quote
We had a long chat this morning and although the flirtations are not appropriate, it was really the notion that I spent much of the party by myself with our baby while my wife visited with her friends that bothered me

Okay, we've established what bothers you. But there is an additional issue, what would bother your wife if she felt bonded to you. I'll bet anything that if your wife was more bonded to you she would be bothered by you talking about your sex life with another woman. And even if not, I can tell you from the experiences people have seen here that it's not safe!


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Side note. Her best friend and I were joking around about kids and stuff and how life is tough. She made some sexual innuendo to which I replied, "I don't get laid anymore," to which she replied, "it's your own damn fault" and walked away.

If you are interested in protecting your marriage, why in the name of Christ would you have such a discussion? If a woman who isn't your wife makes sexual innuendo towards you ... why continue the discussion? And to tell her about your sex life?

I don't know, I don't know, and I don't know. We had a long chat this morning and although the flirtations are not appropriate, it was really the notion that I spent much of the party by myself with our baby while my wife visited with her friends that bothered me. She apologized for it. We came to the conclusion that neither one of is happy because the effort is not being made once again. The effort is specifically about spending time together. We agreed to be selfish about time alone with each other and both feel that if we accomplish that most other things will fall in line. It worked before and it will again.

Hill, I am going to relate to you a tad bit here, but first things first; don't get nuts about suspicions and confrontations on possible adultery! If you have total transparency you monitor, and that is it.

Now, the situation you find yourself in was where my marriage was after our second DD was born, and it peaked when she was about 2.

Because I failed to act, this continued for 6 years, until I finally withdrew and gave up - of course LB's didn't work, and probably because of whatever LB's were tossed out, other attempts were also rebuked.

So, what I can say is this; don't fall off the path!

When you are struggling to claw your way out of withdrawal, or out of conflict friends, work, extended family - those events are never going to be helpful.

If you are not getting your base UA time, they are going to be downright destructive.

The base from which all other things gain importance is your marriage, period. Less than optimal function in your marriage will; stress your friendships, stress your family relationships, and effect your work.

Start scheduling that UA time, if you have do, redo the dang Q's again. And again.

Performance, feedback, revision.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
I don't know, I don't know, and I don't know.
You DO know. It felt good.

No not really, this friend of my wife's has been that way as long as I've known her. She doesn't appeal to me in the slightest bit, and no it didn't feel good. Nevertheless it was inappropriate.

Not buying it. You wouldn't have talked to her about your sex life if you didn't get something out of it.


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Please answer my questions:

Have you read about Extraordinary Precautions?

Does Grace know about the sexual innuendo between you and that woman?



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Originally Posted by Prisca
Please answer my questions:

Have you read about Extraordinary Precautions?

Does Grace know about the sexual innuendo between you and that woman?

Yes she knows and again that is just how she is. Neither one of us were threatened by it. We know all about EP. What we agreed is that despite us both promising each other and ourselves that we'd never cheat on each other, is that things happen when needs are met by another. No one goes into it making a conscious decision to betray a spouse. It just happens so we agreed that the absolute best thing we can do for each other is to schedule and spend time together. We came up with other couples we know and there is a direct correlation between UA time and a healthy marriage. In other words, we've seen it in our own marriage when done properly and we've seen it in other couples. This is our plan and we never should have gotten lazy about it in the first place.


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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Side note. Her best friend and I were joking around about kids and stuff and how life is tough. She made some sexual innuendo to which I replied, "I don't get laid anymore," to which she replied, "it's your own damn fault" and walked away.

If you are interested in protecting your marriage, why in the name of Christ would you have such a discussion? If a woman who isn't your wife makes sexual innuendo towards you ... why continue the discussion? And to tell her about your sex life?

I don't know, I don't know, and I don't know. We had a long chat this morning and although the flirtations are not appropriate, it was really the notion that I spent much of the party by myself with our baby while my wife visited with her friends that bothered me. She apologized for it. We came to the conclusion that neither one of is happy because the effort is not being made once again. The effort is specifically about spending time together. We agreed to be selfish about time alone with each other and both feel that if we accomplish that most other things will fall in line. It worked before and it will again.

Hill, I am going to relate to you a tad bit here, but first things first; don't get nuts about suspicions and confrontations on possible adultery! If you have total transparency you monitor, and that is it.

Now, the situation you find yourself in was where my marriage was after our second DD was born, and it peaked when she was about 2.

Because I failed to act, this continued for 6 years, until I finally withdrew and gave up - of course LB's didn't work, and probably because of whatever LB's were tossed out, other attempts were also rebuked.

So, what I can say is this; don't fall off the path!

When you are struggling to claw your way out of withdrawal, or out of conflict friends, work, extended family - those events are never going to be helpful.

If you are not getting your base UA time, they are going to be downright destructive.

The base from which all other things gain importance is your marriage, period. Less than optimal function in your marriage will; stress your friendships, stress your family relationships, and effect your work.

Start scheduling that UA time, if you have do, redo the dang Q's again. And again.

Performance, feedback, revision.

The third child has taken it's toll on our marriage. We did not have the tools to deal with it as we do now. It is still a strain and frankly a pain, but it doesn't mean we can't both make a conscious decision to change our behavior. There is no love at first site nonsense. We fell in love because we spent a lot of time together. We fell out of love because we stopped spending a lot of time together. It can't get any more simple than that. In the past I wouldn't speak up when we didn't stick to a plan to spend time together but that won't happen anymore. If I need to be the one to speak up about it then I will, because the current path we are on can only lead to two outcomes, infidelity or divorce. Neither of those options is acceptable to either one of us.


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Originally Posted by Prisca
Please answer my questions:

Have you read about Extraordinary Precautions?

Does Grace know about the sexual innuendo between you and that woman?

Yes she knows and again that is just how she is. Neither one of us were threatened by it. We know all about EP. What we agreed is that despite us both promising each other and ourselves that we'd never cheat on each other, is that things happen when needs are met by another.


Where were your EPs at the party, then?

It doesn't matter if you were "threatened" by it. Some things are dangerous even if you do not feel "threatened."

What are you two going to do differently so that these things do not happen again? It will take more than just spending time together ...

Quote
No one goes into it making a conscious decision to betray a spouse.
Which is exactly why EPs are so important.


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Hill, I am going to relate to you a tad bit here, but first things first; don't get nuts about suspicions and confrontations on possible adultery! If you have total transparency you monitor, and that is it.

Now, the situation you find yourself in was where my marriage was after our second DD was born, and it peaked when she was about 2.

Because I failed to act, this continued for 6 years, until I finally withdrew and gave up - of course LB's didn't work, and probably because of whatever LB's were tossed out, other attempts were also rebuked.

So, what I can say is this; don't fall off the path!

When you are struggling to claw your way out of withdrawal, or out of conflict friends, work, extended family - those events are never going to be helpful.

If you are not getting your base UA time, they are going to be downright destructive.

The base from which all other things gain importance is your marriage, period. Less than optimal function in your marriage will; stress your friendships, stress your family relationships, and effect your work.

Start scheduling that UA time, if you have do, redo the dang Q's again. And again.

Performance, feedback, revision.

The third child has taken it's toll on our marriage. We did not have the tools to deal with it as we do now. It is still a strain and frankly a pain, but it doesn't mean we can't both make a conscious decision to change our behavior. There is no love at first site nonsense. We fell in love because we spent a lot of time together. We fell out of love because we stopped spending a lot of time together. It can't get any more simple than that. In the past I wouldn't speak up when we didn't stick to a plan to spend time together but that won't happen anymore. If I need to be the one to speak up about it then I will, because the current path we are on can only lead to two outcomes, infidelity or divorce. Neither of those options is acceptable to either one of us. [/quote]


And this, sir, is an important acknowledgment.

Step two is being the motivator without resorting to LB's.


I know you are capable brother, so refer to the quicklist I have posted to you before. That is your go-to at crisis points!


What are my wife's top 3 EN's?

How can I better meet them?

What are my worst 3 LB's?

How can I eliminate them?

How can we meet our weekly UA goal?

Schedule it!


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"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Markos is a good example of someone who has very strong boundaries .... Markos, would you respond to woman who is making sexual innuendos to you by telling her that you don't get laid anymore?

Hilltopper, flirtation outside of marriage is more than just inappropriate. I don't care if either of you feel threatened. Flirtation is downright dangerous. When you allow yourself to flirt with those outside your marriage, it doesn't matter how much time you and your wife spend together. It doesn't matter how good she is meeting your EN. People in GOOD marriages, with ALL their EN met by their spouse STILL have affairs. And they have the affairs WITH people they normally wouldn't find attractive! You must protect your marriage with EPs.

Neither of you should ever allow yourself to flirt again.


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Yes she knows and again that is just how she is. Neither one of us were threatened by it. We know all about EP. What we agreed is that despite us both promising each other and ourselves that we'd never cheat on each other, is that things happen when needs are met by another. No one goes into it making a conscious decision to betray a spouse. It just happens so we agreed that the absolute best thing we can do for each other is to schedule and spend time together. We came up with other couples we know and there is a direct correlation between UA time and a healthy marriage. In other words, we've seen it in our own marriage when done properly and we've seen it in other couples. This is our plan and we never should have gotten lazy about it in the first place.

HT, like the others, I am pretty concerned about what happened at this party.

And now I am even more concerned after reading this type of doubletalk, excuse-making post as the one above.

If you KNOW about EPs and still didn't use them...and aren't that upset with each other for crossing the line...this tells me that you both don't REALLY think the other (or yourself) is at risk for an affair, which actually puts you at the MOST risk for having an affair.

And the ANSWER when you both cross the line isn't: "We have slipped up with UA time!" Oh dear.

What you should be saying is, What steps do we take to eliminate independent behavior and make sure our love banks are closed to members of the opposite sex?

Sexymamabear writes it best when she says that EPs are the cornerstone to the MB program in terms of affair-proofing your marriage...because there WILL BE times when you aren't meeting each other's needs.

So here's a EP plan for you BOTH:

No flirting with members of the opposite sex
No intimate conversation with members of the opposite sex
No sexual innuendo with members of the opposite sex
No affection (kissing, even a peck on the lips) with members of the opposite sex
If you two are going to functions where you will be drinking (lowered inhibition), no baby and you STAY TOGETHER.

And I will add: I don't think you two should be going to the gym without each other. Affairs start at gyms and I think this is risky for even a healthy marriage. You two shouldn't be taking these types of risks. Most gyms have babysitting, you should be going TOGETHER even if you don't work out together.

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Hilltopper,

Just wondering how everything is going? I kept up with your thread for a long time. Give us an update.


PTH


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Prisca,I'm sorry, I don't understand this comment.
"It doesn't matter how good she is meeting your EN. People in GOOD marriages, with ALL their EN met by their spouse STILL have affairs."
Then what is the point of meeting EN?

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Originally Posted by kempkemp
Then what is the point of meeting EN?

To fall in love and have a wonderfully romantic, fulfilling marriage.

You don't affair proof your marriage by meeting EN. You affair proof your marriage by taking Extraordinary Precautions and creating strong boundaries.


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Originally Posted by PTH
Hilltopper,

Just wondering how everything is going? I kept up with your thread for a long time. Give us an update.


PTH

Things are not good, at least not for me. I keep thinking after this long that my wife will come around, see me leading by example, and eventually make a stronger effort to meet my needs. I go through ups and downs, right now I'm in a down. When my Taker is getting tired of being kicked around I want to shut down and not do anything to meet her needs in return. Here is what I believe the crux of the problem is for me in my situation:

1. My wife for whatever reason is the type of person that has no problem asking for anything she wants. Rejection doesn't bother her, so she'll ask the same thing of me or of anyone numerous times and not think anything of it.

2. I am the opposite of my wife. I don't want to trouble people and and somewhat of a minimalist. I don't like rejection and it makes me want to give up after asking for something I need from my wife.

3. If I do get a meed met, such as SF, my wife makes sure to let me know how "lucky" I am for having it met. When I do ask for things often times my wife just can't say no, she instead has to give me all the reasons why. My wife has a "go to" list for all of my needs so there is a perfectly good reason(in her mind not mine) why a need can't be met.

So there it is. I've been doing MB for over a year now I believe and this is the position I'm in. I'm unhappy and I don't see my unhappiness changing by my wife just "coming around" someday.


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Topper,

I have read and watched you change over a long course of time. I give you a bunch of credit. I have also seen your wife shut down on here and so it leads me to believe that she has done so at home as well.

I would NOT continue to be in a one sided marriage. My ww acted a great deal like yours up to when she started her 1st affair. No matter what I did I could not make her happy, no matter what!

I truly believe their are just some people that "CHOOSE" that mind set!

I have been through hell and back because of her actions and I will tell you everyday it gets better and now I look back and am happy that I am away from her daily drama and the hell she constantly put me through.

I think she needs to know that you will not be in a marriage in which needs are not being met!

Just my .02


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Originally Posted by PTH
I think she needs to know that you will not be in a marriage in which needs are not being met!

You know, Dr. Harley just really does not advocate this approach that often for men. I am betting Hilltopper has already said it.

At this point, I don't think there is much else to say, but there is much more to do. Her emotional needs are not being met, or she would be coming around.

Hilltopper is going to have to go first meeting her needs -- possibly for quite some time. He hasn't been able to get her involved in UA time, so I am betting the approach to take is going to go in the direction of some other emotional needs before she will feel interested in the more intimate needs.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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