Thank you Mrs. W,
I agree. We can keep it here. You make great points. The question that's been nagging at me is this:
What exactly is "stinkin thinkin"?
Can you suggest some ways to cope?
Thank you!
CT

Hey CT -- I only have a few minutes right now -- Mr. W and I are painting our dd's room as a surprise for her 12th birthday - we are redoing the whole thing, so please forgive me if I am rather brief...

First, let me say that I was impressed with how little fog I detected based on the length of your affair, and the amount of time since no contact -- Really...Seriously...Very Cool!

There were only a few things that made me use the term "stinkin' thinkin'" -- and PLEASE by no means take that as an insult -- you would be VERY ODD if you didn't have some residual fog at this point -- This recovery gig is definitely a marathon -- not a sprint.

In particular, and I certainly could just have been reading it wrong, but I noticed a tone of "the devil made me do it" -- and I want you to understand that the affair was entirely your choice -- Satan be darned.

Here's some scripture that I think might resonate with you -- I think it describes waywardness to a tee:


Of course I know you did not say that God tempted you at all -- the part that I hope strikes a chord with you is this:

"by their own evil desire"

See, without that part we couldn't be tempted. We are responsible for our desires -- for our choices -- Those things are what make us available to Satan to tempt. We are responsible for putting ourselves out there to be tempted.

I do hope you will forgive me if I misread you and you already know all that...

I didn't reach out to you so I could smack you -- I reached out because I see great promise in you, and I am so very hopeful for you and your husband.

Later, I'd love to talk with you about your experience with depression and counseling -- Where are you with all that currently? I'd also love to hear anything else you'd like to share about how recovery is going. Back later.

Mrs. W

Mrs. W,
You'll see on my blog post today that I talk about the poor choices I made with my free will. It's just easier for me to picutre the POSOM as the devil. It keeps me from contacting him. I started reading your story from day 1. We sure do have a lot in common. You give me hope that we can recover. There are days when my desire for contact is so strong it's like an addiction. I fight it with everything I've got. After reading your story, I wonder if my urges for contact are caused by no closure. The POSOM called my husband and told him about the affair and then denied making the phone call. In fact, he said to my Husband, "I'll deny it and she's so stupid she'll believe me". Wow! See, like you, I thought what we had was special. Ha.....don't all of us WS think that! Anyway, it bothers me that I'll never know EXACTLY why he disclosed, and therefore ended, the affair. You keep me going when you say that I'm doing well for it being so early. I sit here and feel so horrible that I still have these urges. I think, to myself, that after 7 months I shouldn't even be thinking about him anymore. You are brilliant when you say feelings follow actions. That is my new mantra! Please keep the advice coming! Thank you!

Oh Lordy NO to the closure deal -- My goodness, I PRAY that is NOT what you take from that thread -- What I did was SO STUPID, CT -- So thoughtless, so cruel and so very, very risky!!!

My whole story isn't all on one thread btw, it's scattered throughout in bits and pieces...I'll share anything you'd like to know though...

There should be no "closure" to an affair, as there should have been no "opening" in the first place -- You want closure? I'll give it to you -- Your marriage vows -- You made that choice and you cannot choose otherwise -- Well, I suppose you can, and sadly, many do, but let's say this: you can't choose otherwise without DIRE CONSEQUENCES to both self and others. The further out you get the more clearly you will be able to see what those consequences would have looked like -- not just for you, but more importantly, for your children -- I have no doubt that your husband would have gone on to find someone else -- he would have still had scars of course, but he would have been happy again. You? Your children? Not so much...The ripple effect of adultery is horrific -- it continues to do damage for GENERATIONS.

Listen, I DO understand wanting to know why -- you've read some of my foggy stuff, so I know you know that I felt the same, but here's the bottom line -- OM did what he did because he didn't give a rat's behind about you -- I KNOW that seems incongruent with the words that he spoke -- please remember this: TALK IS CHEAP! He said what he had to say to you to get what he wanted. PERIOD. THE END. When push came to shove he threw you under a bus, and he'd do it again and again -- Why do you need to know? CT, really -- truly -- for sure -- HE DID NOT LOVE YOU -- Now, I'm not saying you didn't actually feel the feelings that you felt -- you did -- I get it, but love is a VERB...plus the feelings that you felt didn't exist in a real life setting -- there were no joint utility bills to pay -- no mortgage -- no broken hot water heaters -- no stomach flu's -- no dirty dishes or smelly breath or ratty sweatpants, or dirty diapers or crying babies -- see? Stop dwelling on a life that didn't exist -- a life that doesn't exist for ANYONE on the planet outside of teenagers and affair partners...

Okay, now that I've lectured you to death, I'll tell you what helped me get through withdrawal -- Spending LOADS of FUN UA [undivided attention] time with Mr. W, and reading and posting here trying to help others...Getting outside of myself was important -- I had to stop dwelling -- I had to stop believing that the world revolved around me and my bruised ego -- being "of service" to others to the best of my ability was a lifesaver...I needed the shift in focus, and an amazing thing began to happen -- I would get SO MAD at the waywards that were terrorizing the betrayed spouses here -- now at first I didn't even see that they were no different than me, but pretty soon I saw the sickening resemblance, and that did wonders for us...

How much UA time are you and your husband spending per week? How much of that is OUTSIDE of the house? THAT is critical...Let's talk about it...

Back to painting...

Mrs. W

CT - I am concerned by your cornering of Mrs. W. From reading yoru posts I still see some, "But my Affair was special, I am special" notions happening.

I believe this is what is driving the need to analyze and determine why your POSOM did this.

When you state, "I have to think of him as the devil." suggests you are struggling at looking at him in a bad light. You try and force him to be the devil, but in your mind you still see the fantasy with him.

My thought is your inability to look at him as the POS loser he really is reflects your inability to look at yourself in the same light.

The focus needs to come off him and onto your BH. Are you reading other BH's threads and really getting the nature of what your actions did?

Not breaking out of your fantasy after seven months is a grave concern. You are still unsafe to your marriage.

My suggestion is to up your UA time to 25 hours/week, and really focus on each other's EN.

One more thought - the longer the focus remains on POSOM, the more likely resentment is building in your BH.

How awful for him to know how much time you spend on thinking of this man. This energy needs to get diverted. POSOM needs to go once and for all. The sooner the faster to recovery.

I somehow just deleted everything I wrote! Grrrrr! Anyhow, thank you both for giving me such great advice. So much of what you said is really giving me clarity.
BH and I try to get in 20 hours a week but it's difficult with his job. He works about 15 hours a day. We try to go out on date nights every other weekend. We just got back from a weekend at a B&B and it was wonderful for us.
Sigh.......I'm trying so hard. I refuse to give up. I stopped posting here for awhile and I think that hurt me.
I forgot to answer Mrs. W's ? about my depression. It took months but I'm finally on the right dose of an anti-depressant and it has made all the difference in the world. I could barely get out of bed before. Now I'm back to work and feeling stronger. PLEASE keep slamming me with advice. I need it! You guys are the best!
CT

CT,

Permit me to offer you some thoughts on a few things you are confused about. First, Mrs.W admonition to seek closure by focusing on your marriage vows is dead on. Think about it, ruminate on it, focus on it. Mrs.W is dead on here.

Now to some of your comments

You said Ok, let's look at the obvious.

He disclosed to your H because he tired of the affair and wanted it to end. You don't need to guess here, that is exactly why he did it. It ended your affair.

However, my guess there is a bit more and you are really NOT going to like it. For him the affair was a game and what he sought and got was another man's W. But, it would not be much "fun" if he did not let the BH know that he had you, used you, and then threw you back. You were the pawn, the competition was to take you away from your H and he succeeded.

Do you really want to further pursue "exactly why he did it?" I think you need to understand something very very important. He set out to demean and harm your H and YOU HELPED.

Now the only question remaining is are you going to focus on your OM? or your H and your wedding vows? I don't think you really have realized and reached a state where you empathy can allow you to see what has been done. It is coming I hope.

When it arrives you will then KNOW that OM is not worth focusing on, but your marriage is.

Just some thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

First, I wanted to say a few things to itstoughlove...

I have long loved reading your posts, and I'm sorry I've never taken the opportunity to tell you before now! You post with such moral clarity -- always a pleasure to read -- thank you!

Next, in CT's defense regarding "cornering" me, I got the opportunity yesterday to read her personal blog, noticed she was only sporadic in her postings here, but I still saw promise in her, so I sent her a message through her blog -- So really I guess you could say I cornered her!

And I do agree with you that the focus on OM must cease, which is why I am hoping she will read and post trying to help others here -- the focus on OM is contributing to self-focus and that will be a detriment to both CT and of course her BH...

And hey EVERYONE -- What am I missing? Where is this 7 months NC thing coming in? From the signature I read, the last contact, albeit one-sided [which still counts], was in August [3 months ago] -- and it was a THREE YEAR AFFAIR -- that's a long time -- My affair was 3 months, and I was foggy [not completely] for a very long time...


Okay, your UA time MUST, and I mean MUST increase -- that's all there is to it -- Did you know that Dr. Harley refuses to coach a couple that did not meet their UA time for the week? Instead he spends their session lecturing them about WHY they must prioritize UA time or the MB program will NOT work. If they continue not getting in their UA time he cuts them loose -- he doesn't want to waste his time and theirs. THAT is how critical UA time is...

UA time must be spent meeting the 4 intimate emotional needs, which are:

1. Recreational Companionship
2. Affection
3. Intimate Conversation
4. Sexual Fulfillment

At a minimum you guys should be spending 20 hours/wk UA time, but like itstoughlove suggested, you really need 25 plus hours at a crisis time like this. This has to be put on the front burner immediately, CT -- Tell your husband to come here and talk to us about this. Your marriage won't fully recover, and may not even survive unless you guys do this.

Dr. Harley says that a career is to serve your marriage and family -- NOT the other way around.

I am glad to hear your depression has lifted, CT -- What I find interesting is that you said: "Now I'm back to work and feeling stronger" -- Ahhhhhh...So, your feelings are following your actions, yes?

That, imo, really is the key to life -- look no further than your affair for proof actually -- you invested loads of time and energy on OM [actions] and what happened? Your feelings followed. AH HA! Now, the same is true for your marriage, sooooo... UA TIME - UA TIME - UA TIME...All positive actions that your feelings will follow -- If you work the program, the program works!

Mrs. W

Now, is this what the two of you did when you were dating? My guess is no -- You can't fall romantically in love with each other at that pace...Gotta pick it up, kiddo...It's a very serious issue...I will keep hammering you on it...

Mrs. W

Mrs. W and JL,
You both can't possibly know how much you're helping me. I hope I can "pay it forward" in the future. You both give me so much hope.
Sigh.....It is starting to hit me like a ton of bricks what an awful thing I did. And for what? NOTHING!!! For months, I didn't allow myself to feel what it was like to be in my H's shoes. All I did was cause pain to so many people. I had to end yet another friendship because my relationship with her is a trigger for my husband (she covered for me and condoned the affair). H comes first from now on. I want to do whatever it takes to make it up to my H and my kids and my friends and my family members that I hurt so much. I left my family (not physically but in every other way) for three years.
No more focus on the POSOM because that is exactly what he is. My therapist says that I'm struggling with my "narcissistic wounds" or, as Mrs. W put it, my "bruised ego". Once I saw that the POSOM had a girlfriend only 6 weeks after D-Day, it changed my perspective of the affair. That's when I had realized I had allowed myself to be manipulated (as JL said above...I helped the POSOM hurt my husband). POSOM knows my husband and has always been jealous of him. This was POSOM's way of boosting his ego when he tired of the affair.
Ok, enough about that. I don't want to focus on that POS anymore. I also want to stop focusing on my bruised ego. How incredibly selfish and horrible my actions were.
The sad part is that I almost caved again at the 3 month NC point. I almost googled him again but was able to stop myself. That would have set us back to day 1.
Please keep the advice coming. It's never enough. Whatever anyone can say to help me focus on my husband. We just discussed how we can increase our UA time. I realize how very important this is; otherwise, we will become disconnected again.

Hey CT...Really quickly, as today is our dd's actual bday and I have loads to do...

1. Great job that you are considering your husband and ending "friendships" that bother him -- I put "friendships" in quotes because any person that aided and abetted an affair is NOT a true friend to you -- Watching as you jump off a cliff -- and actually encouraging you to jump...Well, you get the picture...I also ended one of those kind of "friendships"...

2. I am glad you are doing all that you can to shift your focus away from OM -- that is what is best for you and your family -- I wanted to point out a quick something to you about OM though in case you are tempted to go back and wallow -- OM has Bipolar Disorder -- EGADS -- Based upon his actions, I can guess that he is likely unmedicated -- My father had Bipolar Disorder and went unmedicated, so I lived it up close and personal -- My word, you just have no idea what a bullet you dodged...Seriously...Think Charlie Sheen..."WINNING!" -- *shudder* Total Nightmare!!!

When I have more time I want to come back and discuss counseling with you -- Can you give me a list of things that your counselor has truly helped you with and how he/she went about that?

Later Gator...

Mrs. W

Mrs. W,
Happy Bday to your DD! Enjoy! She is 12? I teach middle school and really enjoy it
Ah, yes.....he was diagnosed with bi-polar in prison and was heavily medicated while there. When he got out, he went cold turkey off his mood stabalizers (not a smart idea)and was physically ill for three weeks. He self medicates with alcohol. The one time he was prescribed Wellbutrin.....he took twice as much as he should and he became very manic. He also tends to abuse klonopin. Ugh........thank you for pointing out what a bullet I dodged. You are so right. When I have the urge to wallow, I am going to recall all the horrible times I had with him (him being so drunk he fell down the steps at a restaurant and verbally abused the waiters). Ha....yea, let me leave my stable husband for THAT!
One other thing I wanted to mention about him. His entire family (sister, brother, mom and dad....who are divorced) knew about the affair and the only response from his parents was "don't get caught". So, you know what kind of family he comes from. His mother is also an alcoholic and his father was in prison for robbery. Listening to myself tell you this makes me squirm. How could I have been so foolish? I truly was an "alien". I would never let my kids around that. AND I love my mother-in-law. I couldn't get better than her. So many of my friends complain how they hate their MIL's but I am so thankful for mine. I'll get back to you on the therapy thing. It's a good thing for me to think about!
The OM won't contact me because my husband could expose him and have him fired in a minute. His employer has no idea he was in prison for embezzlement (he works a job handling their money). The dummies never ran a background check. I was going to expose him early on to his employer but I didn't want to bring him back into our lives; besides, being as emotionally unstable as he is...I was afraid of how he would retaliate. I was afraid to put my kids in danger.
I'm so relieved to be rid of such insanity!
CT

CT,

Imagine how much joy it gives OM to know that he still has you emotionally, but can have anyone else physically. He KNOWS he still has you as much as your H does. He KNOWS and you reinforce every time you contact him, that he owned you body and soul.

Every second you spend time thinking about OM, he takes something from your H and it makes his day. You want to make it up to your H? Well you cannot. In your lifetime, you cannot make up for what you did.

Your H gave you a gift...the gift of forgiveness and there is no way you can pay him for it. Your H gave you the gift of a whole family and there is no way you can pay him for it. They were gifts, undeserved and priceless.

The question is what are you going to do? Focus on OM, think about OM, get tempted to contact OM? Or are you going to realize that the man that gave you gifts and loved you was your H not the OM. OM simply took from you.

I said that you cannot repay your H or make it up to him and that you need to fully comprehend. But, that does not mean you cannot also give him some gifts. What would they be?

Perhaps happiness or more precisely your happiness to be with him and your family. Perhaps it would be peace of mind. Could you act in such a way that eventually he KNEW you had his back and would protect him? Perhaps, support, respect, or just plain old love?

You need to decide what your life will be and what you value. If you don't, then there is no way you can ever recover from what you have done.

Please think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you, JL,

I know you are right. I want to give him all my attention and love and protection. I am working really hard on that.

Thank you for continuing to respond. Everything you say hits home in some way.

Although I cannot repay him for forgiving me, I am thinking of ways to shower him with love this weekend. It's our wedding anniversary!
CT

CT,

Just remember this, he does not want repayment for a gift. What he wants and what he needs is your love from now on. My bet as you give him your love and attention, it will be returned to many times over.

You want to give him a gift, consider giving him the gift of respect, of love, of friendship, of companionship, and of care. Not just on the anniversary but going forward.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Congrats on the anniversary.

Hi CT!

So sorry I disappeared on you there for a bit -- Birthday celebrations get heavy press around these parts, and often turn into birthWEEKS!

How was your anniversary weekend? That first anniversary after dday is oftentimes very rough on the BS -- understandably so. I hope you guys spent lots of time making new memories together. I look forward to an update.

Mrs. W

P.S. You teach middle school? How cool! What do you teach if you don't mind my asking? English is our dd's favorite subject, though she is doing well in all her classes -- only one B -- in the much "dreaded" math. Of course, now that I've said that it's pretty much inevitable that you are going to come back and tell me that you are a math teacher!

Mrs. W,
So glad to hear from you. I didn't want to bother you. I have been feeling weak. My therapist wants me to pay attention to what is happening when I feel the urge for contact. What are my thoughts? What's going on in my life? I'm noticing it's when I'm stressed out and overwhelmed. I tend to want to go into my fantasy world in my head. BH and I are discussing him possibly getting a new job. UA time is very difficult with the hours he works. We'll never survive if we don't meet the UA time.
Our anniversary trip was great. A little weird at first because, as you said, it was the first anniversary after D-Day. However, I was determined to make it all about us.
You can figure out what I teach by my MB username This is part of my problem. I've always enjoyed becoming someone else and living in someone else's life. This is also what contributed to me being such a good liar during the affair. Ugh......awful.
So, anyway, any advice for when I'm feeling weak? I get so angry. I don't like the POSOM still being in my head. My cousin said to go easy on myself. She reminded me that he was a daily part of my life for three years so it's going to take a LONG time for me to stop ruminating after going cold turkey but that I must stay the course (same thing my therapist said). I do not expect sympathy from anyone here. That's not what I'm asking for. I'm asking for ways to stay strong from former WW's like yourself. It feels as though I'm never going to be able to escape limerence. The thing is......if I lost my husband (which is NOT what I want), I wouldn't go back to the POSOM. He's a horrible person. I would find someone of character like my husband. I'm not sure I'd ever remarry either.
So glad to hear from you! Thank you!
CT

I'm not MrsW or a FWS, but I'd like to comment. it seems to me that there is still something about OM that you are attached to. Possibly an EP that was being filled when you were stressed out. Most likely it is intimate conversation or UA time. One suggestion is if OM pops into your brain and you are thinking about him, switch gears and honestly think about all the things and people that were affected by contact with OM and the A.

Is OM the kind of man that you really want to spend the rest of your life with? Even a moment? Someone who helped you lie, cheat, steal from your family and hurt the ones you love?

Someone who doesn't have any regard for anyone else but himself. That would be willing to do this to someone else long term?

I would spend about that much time on it or less (as much time as it took to read this) and then force yourself to think of where you are headed with recovery and the type of marriage you are working towards. Keeping your eyes not on yourself, but on the prize before you. Use that time to get creative and think of creative ways to find UA time.

CV

CV,
Thank you for giving me a different perspective on my thinking. I have read a lot of your posts and they are always helpful. Also, thank you for not 2 by 4'ing me. I find I take in information better when it is said to me in a constructive way vs. being slammed.
I'm going to read your story now.
CT