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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Originally Posted by Prisca
I strongly suspect that you are "asking" for your needs to be met by making demands.

You are also DJing her by psychoanalyzing her.

A year later, and you are still lovebusting her. Why would you expect the program to work?

This is what I love about you Prisca, you always know what I'm thinking. I admit to the DJs, not to the demands. I come here with DJs to get some feedback on what I should do, not redirects on how poorly I MUST be doing with the MB program. Isn't it possible my wife just isn't willing to do this? If I say that are you gonna say then I must be trying to let myself off the hook? I don't want sympathy, I want a great marriage, but despite my efforts it eludes me.


I suggest you stop being defensive and start listening. If you're continuing to lovebust your wife, you are not following the program. You can get in a huff about that, or you can do something about it.

She knows enough about the program to know that you can control your lovebusting. When you lovebust, you sabotage your own efforts.

It is still very likely that she perceives your requests as demands. Whether you intend it or not.

Now, stop being defensive, okay? smile We're all here to help.


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Originally Posted by itistoughlove
I would say you may want to prepare for Plan B. Start to map out what your life might look like.

In a non-affair situation, Dr. Harley does not recommend Plan B for most men who are being neglected.


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Originally Posted by markos
Can you give us an example of how you ask for your needs to be met?

How would you feel about dropping the kids off at the inlaws and going for a run with me Saturday morning?

And how does she respond?

She actually said it sounded fun but that she didn't want to "waste" the use of her parents time in place of other babysitting opportunities. Those other opportunities all involved activities with other friends, not one on one time.

Ah, okay. So to her, she would like to engage in group events with you, and she wants the babysitting kept for that ... and what kind of alone time together does she want to have with you?


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
I don't know where my love bank is, all I know is that I'm back to out of energy again and feel like throwing my hands up.

You are in a motivational swamp.

The thing is, if you keep at this, and if you continue to refine and improve your approach, she really will fall in love with you. That will make all the difference in the world. There will appear to be almost no improvement in that for a long time, but there will be a sudden, sudden change. Dr. Harley said he has men wonder if their wives suddenly started taking hormones or something. And it goes on for a few days, and then they dip below the threshold again, and it goes away. But if they keep at the plan, their wives come back up above the threshold again, longer this time, and in this way the marriage improves in "fits and starts" until it is good all the time.

This has been what I have been seeing in my marriage for a year. There have been some truly awful times, and I have also seen what those times are like above the threshold. Every time we go back below that threshold I get just a little bit more information about how to keep moving up, not down. (I also get stuck in motivational swamps!)

Did you listen to that call from Oct 25, with Steve?


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I think she enjoys dinner with me, but also loves to be very social. I think I am an acceptable companion for her but not her favorite. Again I am not her priority and so I need to figure out better ways to become that. Her friends are a priority, obviously the kids, the house, and going to the gym. I feel I am probably #5 behind those four items.

She frequently brings up the past when we get in any serious discussions about our marriage. I don't know man, I'm so emotionally drained and exhausted it is hard to focus. How about we just go simple question and answer right now for some clarity because right now I have none.


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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
I don't know where my love bank is, all I know is that I'm back to out of energy again and feel like throwing my hands up.

You are in a motivational swamp.

The thing is, if you keep at this, and if you continue to refine and improve your approach, she really will fall in love with you. That will make all the difference in the world. There will appear to be almost no improvement in that for a long time, but there will be a sudden, sudden change. Dr. Harley said he has men wonder if their wives suddenly started taking hormones or something. And it goes on for a few days, and then they dip below the threshold again, and it goes away. But if they keep at the plan, their wives come back up above the threshold again, longer this time, and in this way the marriage improves in "fits and starts" until it is good all the time.

This has been what I have been seeing in my marriage for a year. There have been some truly awful times, and I have also seen what those times are like above the threshold. Every time we go back below that threshold I get just a little bit more information about how to keep moving up, not down. (I also get stuck in motivational swamps!)

Did you listen to that call from Oct 25, with Steve?

It is hard to take information, usually hurtful, consider the unfairness of it all, and then suck it up anyways day after day. I think I listened to the call, email me the link if you can.


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Its funny you mentioned it. I sent my wife a text saying that from my perspective UA time is the only thing that truly impacts a marriage.

Good try. Worded respectfully and nonjudgmentally.

But she probably still perceived it as an attempt to "educate her." And even if she didn't, it probably still didn't go anywhere.

You probably can't convince her to engage in UA time. But you may be able to invite her to spend time with you alone in conversation/recreation/affection/and/or/SF, and if you make that time wonderful for her, that will make Love Bank deposits and bring you two back together.

Some people hear the Marriage Builders program, see how rational it is, commit to it, and follow it until they succeed.

Other people are not convinced how rational it is. But even if they are not, if you can get them to do these things, it will work anyway, even if they do not buy into the program at first.

Grace does not seem to be buying into the program. Further attempts to talk to her about it, at the moment, are probably going to push her away.

The only option I see you have is to respond to her complaints/requests in the most positive way possible, not try to complain to her or persuade her of anything at this point, and become her partner in solving the problems that she faces in life.

Plan A does not require anything from her.


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
It is hard to take information, usually hurtful, consider the unfairness of it all, and then suck it up anyways day after day.

Tell me about it!

Listen, though, there is a light at the end of this tunnel. She will be motivated to meet your needs and to stop being disrespectful when she passes that romantic love threshold. Don't suck it up. Just evaluate your options. You haven't been able to persuade her of the value of this program or persuade her to be more respectful. She's just not motivated. How are you going to motivate her? She's not going to be motivated by a discussion about it. She hasn't so far, and that's not going to change.

We can help you to improve your Plan A so that you finally get through. We can also help motivate you to keep Plan A'ing even when you feel like going into Plan DJ/AO/SD.


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
I think she enjoys dinner with me, but also loves to be very social. I think I am an acceptable companion for her but not her favorite. Again I am not her priority and so I need to figure out better ways to become that. Her friends are a priority, obviously the kids, the house, and going to the gym. I feel I am probably #5 behind those four items.

That sucks.

The kids, the house, and the gym are all love bank deposit opportunities for you. Is she open to doing things with you and the kids? Does she want you to plan family activities?

What obstacles are there at the moment to you changing your schedule to go to the gym with her?

The house -- what does she need done on the house? Is it consuming her, bugging her, in the way, she's thinking about that instead of about you and the marriage? How much of it can you handle?

Quote
She frequently brings up the past when we get in any serious discussions about our marriage.

This also sucks. It's a big emotional minefield, and it's not going to be easy to navigate, and even though she absolutely should not do this, you're not going to be able to stop her or persuade her to stop.

So ...

When she does this, if at all possible, begin your answer with "You're right." Tell her she's right, tell her why she's right, and then gently take the conversation back toward the future.

"You are right, Honey. I did promise to you that I was going to clean that room, and I haven't done it. I was supposed to take care of the garage for you Saturday, but would you rather I take care of this room?"

"You're right, Honey. I was very angry and disrespectful to you that day. What do you need from me to recover and to show you that it will not happen again?"

There's a lot in older threads in the SAA forum on how a wayward spouse (particularly a WH) can lovingly handle situations where the betrayed spouse does not follow the "do not dwell on mistakes of the past" rule. You and I are not wayward, but I have found the suggestions helpful.

Remember that when something upsets your wife, like a memory of the past, she has much less capacity to just "block it out" than you do, by virtue of the fact that her brain is wired differently. This is the same reason why women, even women in love, can typically list many annoying habits on the part of their husbands, but the husbands will typically see very few in their wives.


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If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Its funny you mentioned it. I sent my wife a text saying that from my perspective UA time is the only thing that truly impacts a marriage.

Good try. Worded respectfully and nonjudgmentally.

But she probably still perceived it as an attempt to "educate her."

And trying to educate your spouse is a DJ, even if you try to be respectful about it.

Markos used to say similar things to me when I wasn't interested in MB. All it did was drain his account in my Lovebank.


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Also remember, Hilltopper, that she can read what ever you post here. So those DJs you make here on the board may not be to her face, but when she reads them, it will drain your account in her lovebank as easily as if you had said them to her.


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Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by itistoughlove
I would say you may want to prepare for Plan B. Start to map out what your life might look like.

In a non-affair situation, Dr. Harley does not recommend Plan B for most men who are being neglected.

He stated last week in the call with Steve men can handle two years, and then they should look at Plan B. A neglected man cannot chase his wife forever. There has to be some choices for the husband. Two years of no needs being met ususally puts the LB close to zero. He has to protect his bank.

I know it is very rare for men, but it does happen.

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Listen to the call Markos had with him a few days after Steve (Oct 27, 2011). Dr. Harley was very specific in that he does not usually advise men to separate because of neglect. An affair, yes. Neglect, no.

He has on occasion, but it is not his usual recommendation for men.

If Dr. Harley told Hilltopper to separate and go to Plan B, then he should. But he hasn't.

And all that aside, Hilltopper has yet to do a Plan A.


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Originally Posted by Prisca
Listen to the call Markos had with him a few days after Steve (Oct 27, 2011). Dr. Harley was very specific in that he does not usually advise men to separate because of neglect. An affair, yes. Neglect, no.

He has on occasion, but it is not his usual recommendation for men.

If Dr. Harley told Hilltopper to separate and go to Plan B, then he should. But he hasn't.

And all that aside, Hilltopper has yet to do a Plan A.

Serious talk going on right now. I was honest but respectful. She is crying and went to take a shower before coming back to continue. I pray with all my heart we have a breakthrough together.


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Okay Prisca that makes no sense. Usually for an affair it is six months Plan A and then 18 months Plan B.

If Hilltopper's wife cannot come around in a two year timeframe, then he needs to do something otherwise the situation turns into unconditional love.

If you read unconditional love (even though it is Ellen's letter) he makes the topic general for both husbands and wives.

Hilltopper might be able to go longer than two years in Plan A. It is his choice, but Plan B should be looked at if his wife won't meet his needs after that much time.

Unconditional love does not make a successful marriage, and that is what it seems is happening. I can understand how Hilltopper is using some DJ, but with all the other Plan A love he is depositing it shouldn't be such a big hit that she cannot return love back to him.

Hilltopper any chance you can call into the radio show?

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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Originally Posted by Prisca
Listen to the call Markos had with him a few days after Steve (Oct 27, 2011). Dr. Harley was very specific in that he does not usually advise men to separate because of neglect. An affair, yes. Neglect, no.

He has on occasion, but it is not his usual recommendation for men.

If Dr. Harley told Hilltopper to separate and go to Plan B, then he should. But he hasn't.

And all that aside, Hilltopper has yet to do a Plan A.

Serious talk going on right now. I was honest but respectful. She is crying and went to take a shower before coming back to continue. I pray with all my heart we have a breakthrough together.

I continue to pray for you guys, Hilltopper, but I'm fearful that if you guys had a talk and she is crying that the direction you go from here may not be good. She may begin to feel trapped that she "has" to do whatever it is you are asking for. I can tell you from experience it is so much better to win over her emotions first such that she wants to make you happy. Talks reach her logic; meeting emotional needs reach her emotions.

Please post an update and let us know what's happening now, okay?


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Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by itistoughlove
I would say you may want to prepare for Plan B. Start to map out what your life might look like.

In a non-affair situation, Dr. Harley does not recommend Plan B for most men who are being neglected.

Yes. This is spelled out in When to call it quits, part 3

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
Even if an affair is not ongoing, a separation can lead to one. One of my cardinal rules to prevent an affair is to avoid being separated overnight. A deliberate separation increases the risk of an affair, and can turn a difficult marriage into a disaster.

There are also legal considerations. If a husband separates from his family, he can be accused of abandoning his children. If the marriage ends in divorce, he risks losing the right to joint custody. So an attorney should always be consulted before separating. When a woman wants to separate, she does not have the same legal problems because most courts let her stay in the home with her children. It's the husband who must leave.

If the husband chooses to separate, his children often feel that he's left them. It makes it very difficult for him to explain why he's taking such a drastic step, especially if sex is the problem. But if a wife asks him to leave, the children are still with her. She doesn't need to do as much explaining.

When a husband has children in the home, the risks and problems of separation often outweigh the rewards. After discussing the pros and cons of a separation because of sexual problems, most husbands I've counseled decide not to separate, and I go back to work trying to convince their wives to make love to them. There are three female coaches on our staff and I lean heavily on their instincts and persuasive skills when trying to address this problem.

Believe me, I've given this issue a lot of thought in the last few years. I'm fortunate in that my wife (mostly) embraces MB, and I trust that she is doing what she can within the limits of our current circumstances.

Hill - would your W consider speaking with Jennifer Harley-Chalmers? She got through to my W and might be able to help yours...just a thought.


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Originally Posted by itistoughlove
Okay Prisca that makes no sense.
Take that up with Dr. Harley. He said it, not me smile

Quote
Usually for an affair it is six months Plan A and then 18 months Plan B.
You do realize that there is no affair in this Hilltopper and Grace's marriage, right?

Quote
Hilltopper might be able to go longer than two years in Plan A. It is his choice, but Plan B should be looked at if his wife won't meet his needs after that much time.
Only if Dr. Harley tells him to do so. Dr. Harley doesn't usually recommend that course of action for men who are being neglected. This is not an affair situation.

Quote
Unconditional love does not make a successful marriage, and that is what it seems is happening. I can understand how Hilltopper is using some DJ, but with all the other Plan A love he is depositing it shouldn't be such a big hit that she cannot return love back to him.
On the contrary, every time Hilltopper slips up with a demand or a DJ, he UNDOES everything he has accomplished. He sabotages his own efforts. He abuses his wife. I don't think you're one to judge whether or not that should be a big hit for her or not.

Plan A does not allow for lovebusters, and if he is demanding and DJing her, then he isn't doing Plan A. He is only pushing her away. She's not going to have any interest in returning anything back to him right now, let alone "love."


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Why would he have to leave his home? If she is not meeting his needs for more than two years, then I would make her leave, and let her know he will be filing for sole custody.

The key here is to understand that after a long period (usually 2 years) a man can no longer do Plan A. That isn't fair to Hill or his wife or the children.

Then you have an unconditional love situation, and that will drain all his love for her over time.

Hill still has plenty of time until the two year mark. He should be supported for staying committed, and he should also be supported if he ultimately decides to throw in the towel.

In the meantime, Hill should continue on Plan A and work with his wife by opening up commuication.

If the environment isn't friendly for his wife to share her feelings O&H, then Hill should work to make her feel safe so she can be O&H.

If Mrs. Hill needs more affection to open up SF, then Hill should look at more affection.

If Mrs. Hill needs more FC with the kids, then Hill should figure out how to FC with the kids more.

At the same time if Mr. Hill is doing that, then Mrs. Hill should meet his needs.

Mr. Hill is your wife a super duper strong affection wife? Just like some men need admiration beyond the normal threshold, some women need affection beyond the normal threshold.

It maybe a simple tweeking to the needs to get her to respond. Let's see if we can help him get that tweek.



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