hopestochange, I skimmed through your thread and one of the biggest issues that stands out to me is the lack of negotiation in your marriage. This was also a huge problem in my marriage and kept my marriage out of balance for years. We were not EQUALS when it came to decision making. You tend to be a real independent person, like me, and I see that the inability to negotiate mutually enthusiastic decisions has had a big part in pushing you into a pattern of lying and making independent decisions. It was probably easier for you to just do what you pleased and hide it because it was too hard to make a successful negotiation. Learning how to negotiate changes all that. It will be a huge relief to you.

Oddly, those of us who are the best negotiators in our careers don't have that natural ability in our marriages. I know that is true with me. I negotiate for a living, but had to be trained by MB to do it in my marriage.

For example, whenever you agree to do things you don't like [and you seem to do this OFTEN] you often fail to follow through. When that happens, your husband gets angry at you and you feel like a failure. One example is your dinner parties and another is your agreement to get a second job. You weren't enthusiastic about either, which is leading to unhappiness and fights in your marriage.

A better solution is to STOP the practice of sacrifice. I see you doing this ALOT and this practice is at the heart of much of your trouble. People who make sacrifices tend to NOT follow through and when they do follow through, they develop resentments and they keep score. You seem to make promises you don't want to keep and then feel guilty when you don't keep them. The only thing worse than making a bad promise is keeping a bad promise.

And why did you spend all the money on the sly? Is it because you were not able to negotiate favorable decisions and finally gave up and did what you wanted? This is one thing I used to do. It was WRONG of me to do it but when my H dismissed my feelings enough times about something that was important to me, I finally started doing whatever I pleased. We learned though the policy of joint agreement to negotiate decisions about which we were both enthusiastic. This completely changed the dynamic in our marriage. I no longer felt like hiding and we were no longer frustrated with bad plans that were based on sacrifice.

I just think if you learned how to employ the POJA that you would see an amazing difference in your marriage. You will notice a big change in the level of tension you both feel.

But I would first focus on eliminating lovebusters and stopping the fighting. The fighting is terribly destructive to your marriage and will NEGATE any and all good you do in your marriage. So, get that under control FIRST.

And of course, none of this works without 15+ hours of UA time per week. That is the key to creating and maintaining romantic love. Eliminating lovebusters and focusing on the top 4 intimate emotional needs is the key to ensuring quality.

I am pretty sure we have 15+ hours of uninterrupted attention a week. I also think that we are actually pretty good about the POJA; I do think that I need to be more careful about what I agree to (since I think it leads to overcommitment on my part). I do think that I have to put in a certain amount of sacrifice given how I've acted in the past. I honestly feel like I owe DH quite a bit.

I think there is some truth in what you're saying MelodyLane, but I also think that we have worked past that to a large degree. I definitely used to go off on my own when I didn't think I would get my way, and I would manipulate things to make that happen (often by not explicitly making my plans clear until the last minute). I've stopped doing that; we've started making plans together which is working a lot better.

There are also a lot *fewer* lovebusters floating around than we've had in the past - I know that I can still improve on my end, however!

Hopes, which MB books do you have and have you read up on undivided attention? Specifically it means meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs, while alone, for 15+ hours per week. It is critical to the success of the program.

And I agree you have engaged in sacrifice, which is why I mentioned it. It is poison to marriages and a strategy that creates incompatibility and resentment. You DON'T OWE him that at all. It is a renters strategy, and people who make sacrifices tend to keep score. When the score is not even, they resort to demands and fights ensue. The best way to make up for your past mistakes is not to make sacrifices, but to create a happy, romantic, stable marriage. Sacrifice creates instability and conflict because the person making the sacrifice eventually can't do it anymore.

One concern that I had was you getting a second job. What is the reason for that? Is that being done as a pennance because you ran up this debt?


Thats great!


Aren't you still fighting, though?

Where are you and your husband in the Marriage Builders books? Do you have a plan to turn your marriage around?

I'm agreeing a lot with Melody, here. I see a lot of sacrifices on your part, and very little negotiation and POJA.

Dr. Harley says sacrifice destroys marriages. He says that he loves Mrs. Harley so much that he will not let her sacrifice for him, and she does the same thing for him. It is damaging not only to the person doing the sacrificing, but to the marriage, and as a result it damages your spouse.

You don't owe your husband sacrifice. You owe him a wonderfully fulfilling marriage in which you are both happy. You can't get that by sacrificing.

I agree with MelodyLane...the reason you have not gotten a second job is that you did not POJA it... you were not enthusiastic.

I have not re-read everything but I would assume the reason you need a second job is that you need more money. You getting a second job is one solution to that, but clearly not one you are enthusiastic about.

But what exactly are you not enthusiastic about?

For example, I hate making calling for appointments for the doctor but I don't mind going to the appointments.

Is it APPLYING for the job you don't like or is actually having the job? Are you worried about the amount of time it will take from your home life? Are you worried about interviews and not getting chosen? Do not know what types of jobs to apply for? If it is just applying to the job that you don't like, perhaps your husband could help out. If it is having a second job at all, then....

Are there other solutions to the problem? Could you reduce your budget? Get a better "first" job? Could you figure out another way to make money like sell stuff on ebay or do chilccare?

Like everyone is saying, if you don't both truly enthusiastically agree about something, resentment occurs...for you because you don't want to do something and for him because you didn't do what you said.

I feel like this thread is getting a little off-track. The main issue that we have isn't the second job or earning more in my current job (an idea he had tonight that honestly hadn't occured to me), but honesty and connection. Those are the things that are really poisoning our marriage - or that have poisoned it in the past - and the help that I have gotten on this thread from SB and others was tremendously helpful in recognizing those issues and, better yet, giving me concrete ideas on how to improve in those areas.

I do enthusiastically agree that I need to bring in more money - I also see a lot of obstacles to it. WB - we have reduced our budget, I have sold things on eBay, and doing childcare isn't a possibility because I'm working outside of the house already. Giving back to the marriage financially is important to our happiness, and I agree with that. I would personally feel much better contributing more.

ML - I have read His Needs, Her Needs, and Surviving an Affair, along with the articles on the website. While we are still fighting, it is nowhere near what it used to be and, unlike a few months ago, he is committed to improving our marriage and going forward. I don't see this so much as sacrificing as giving back to someone who has given me so very very much.

And we do spend that time meeting each others' top emotional needs.

PS - just wanted to add that I do appreciate all the advice and the time that people have taken to give it. I can certainly use it and it's good to examine what we are doing and see what we can do better.

And Demands, Disrespect and Angry Outbursts.
And a lack of using the Policy of Joint Agreement.
And not following the Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation.

You will really benefit from getting "Lovebusters" and reading through it several times. It not only deals with the dishonesty issue, but all these others that I've listed. You can get it for $5.24 on half.com. Or you can get it free by emailing the radio show with a question.

Your marriage is suffering from Lovebusters. That is why you are having trouble "connecting." You are still fighting.

hopes, I can relate to this very much because my independent behavior prevented us from having that connection. My independent behavior triggered his angry outbursts and prevented us from having an intimate marriage. Eliminating those lovebusters and learning how to use the policy of joint agreement reversed the feeling of detachment and created a feeling of intimacy in our marriage. If you follow those guidelines, as outlined by Prisca, it will eliminate your problems entirely. Using the POJA did more to make us feel like ONE than anything else we did. It forced us to consistently consider the feelings of the other and added a tenderness to our marriage.

But first, we had to eliminate the lovebusters. There is nothing that causes emotional detachment more than fighing. Fighting is horrible for marriages. So that is where I would start. STOP the fighting.

The program really is the answer to your problems. I know it is hard for you to see from your vantage point, but both Prisca and I have been where you ARE, and we now have happy, intimate romantic marriages. Cut out the fighting FIRST, my friend. It is a disaster to marriages.

ML, in my case I detach emotionally in many - potentially *all*- situations. It's not just a case of doing it in response to fighting with my husband - it's a much more general problem for me. Admittedly, stopping fighting would definitely help, and we fight far, far FAR less than we have in the past, especially since we've started reading the MB books. I realize that the focus of this site is on relationships - but in my case, the pulling away is really a cause of problems, not a result of other problems.

I (generally speaking) do think that the program will be the answer to most of our problems - but there are other things that I think that I need to work on so that I can be a better wife.

We actually POJA things regularly; he is utterly honest with me and I think that I have finally gotten there. We spend a lot of UA time together - my checking out of life/things is also something that gets in the way of UA time, so it's important for me to work on it for that reason as well. It's not (IMHO) UA time if I'm not paying attention or if I want to just go read messages on my phone, right?

Hopestochange, yes you are right that this program focuses on marriages. And what it does is help you to change your behavior so that you do not detach emotionally anymore. People who are not in love are naturally detached. When you are in love, you are emotionally ATTACHED, and that is what the program can resolve.

I would also strongly urge you to stop fighting. Fighting is a disaster to your marriage and is one of the main reasons you are emotionally detached. When my H and I fought, I would feel detached for a week. And that is in a good marriage. There is about nothing that causes a greater sense of detachment than fighting. Fighting less is not the goal, but eliminating it entirely.


Can you be more specific?


You are absolutely right. In fact, if you look at the UA time worksheet, any time that either of you are not paying attention should be deducted from your UA time. I have found, though, that the better my H and I get at conversation and affection, and the more IN LOVE we are, the easier it is to give each other our full attention. But when you are first doing this, it is easy for other competing things, like phone messages, to take your attention away. I now leave my phone in my purse and never take it out during out times together. I don't answer my phone when it rings because that is OUR TIME and we don't allow anything to interfere.

ML, the other things I have to work on are not detaching *in general* (in other words, not from DH but from other people around me) and being more honest (which admittedly is part of the program). In our case, the fights are more often *caused* by the detaching rather than the other way around - I actually think that I detach more when we're *not* fighting because I'm not as focused on him as when he's angry.

I would love it if we stopped fighting altogether, and that's our goal.

Yes, I put the phone away when I know it's "together time." We had a very nice long 2+ hour conversation last night about a whole bunch of different things. And I feel like the closer we get the easier it is to be honest with him about everything, even the things that I'm not happy about or that I would normally have been afraid to tell him.

I also think that my decsription of the fight we had a few weeks ago was somewhat one-sided. It was not as detailed as it should have been, and honestly I was writing it pretty much right in the middle of the fight. I exaggerated things and made DH out worse than he really is (which is something I'm often guilty of).

Can you be more specific? I am not sure I understand what this means.. Who do you want to be closer to and more importantly, WHY?


Here is an interesting thought: the more honest you are with him, the closer you will feel. In other words, feelings follow actions. So the more honest you are, the closer you will feel. Harley says this in his article about recovery and it is a very true point:


In other words, not being honest leads to a lack of intimacy that ruins romance.

That is excellent progress that you are telling him things that make you unhappy. That is the behavior of a BUYER and it does lead to intimacy in marriage.

What I mean is that I tend to check out emotionally from a lot of situations and people, not just from DH (there's a discussion of that earlier on in this thread).

Question: is there a distinction between fighting and being angry? Right now, DH is pretty angry at me (problem with what I bought for thanksgiving, plus I gave a weak apology where I - no surprise here! - wasn't paying total attention to him). But I don't know that we are *fighting*. I'm not fighting back, I guess is what I would say. It doesn't seem realistic to me to think that people won't ever get angry at each other, but perhaps in my mind I'm equating that with fighting? Ugh, I wish I had been more present and am hoping this doesn't wreck Thanksgiving!

Thanks for the advice - much appreciated, keep it coming.

Happy Thanksgiving, hopestochange!!

There is no distinction between fighting and anger in the sense that both are equally damaging to the love in a marriage. But then, so is independent behavior such as:


This what used to set my husband off with angry outbursts. I would engage in independent behavior and then he would get angry. The key was for him to STOP getting angry and for me to stop engaging in IB's. In your situation, it could have been avoided if you would have used the POJA to discuss your Thanksgiving purchases. The POJA subscribes that
Do you have the book, Lovebusters? [sorry if you have already answered that] I would be working on eliminating lovebusters, most especially your independent behavior and for him, anger. There are questionaires you can each complete online.

Did I already ask you this? Where are you and your husband in the lessons? Are you going through the books and actually doing the lessons?

If not, I would get these 2 books, Lovebusters and the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love. They sell both of them cheap on this website. Markos or Prisca can tell you which lessons to start on in LB that address anger. [I gave away my last copy of Lovebusters]

Seriously, hopes, it will make a huge difference if you take a methodical, organized approach to this program. This program avails very little if you cherry pick it, but it avails enormous dividends if you use it in its entirety.

We don't have all of the books, but I think they're going on my Christmas list. We had a very nice weekend, with some last-minute tension about how clean the house is - I tend to forget how important his need for a nice domestic house is when we are busy with recreation and socializing, so I need to balance that better. It might very well mean saying no to some social opportunities we get when it starts getting in the way of cleaning -as boring as that sounds, I think that I prefer meeting his needs for socializing and going out rather than doing the "less fun" meeting of the need for a nice house.

Interestingly, this sort of relates in my mind to working on boundaries as we've been discussing in my counseling group. I need to learn to prioritize what's really important, and have appropriate boundaries about picking those things.

I'm trying not to cherry pick - but I don't know that DH agrees with everything in MB, at least not word for word. We both generally follow its principles, and have gotten a lot closer as a result.

I guess that a big question I have is - what do I do when I have engaged in a "love buster"? What about when I start slipping, and not meeting his needs? Obviously I buckle down and focus on them, but how do I apologize in the mean time?

"Honey, it was wrong of me to plan the Thanksgiving meal without talking to you first and getting your input. I'm sorry. I am committed to never doing anything without your enthusiastic agreement in the future."

Then do it Consult him on everything you do. I was big in Independent Behavior and Dishonesty, too. And yes, they would often lead to AOs on Markos part.

This Thanksgiving was different, though. My family asked me to bake homemade rolls. I talked to Markos first, then agreed. When the time came to bake the rolls, I checked with him again to see if he was still enthusiastic about me spending the time away from him baking. He was thrilled that I showed him such consideration.

In the past, I would've seen the baking time as MY time, and I would've done it regardless of how Markos felt -- it needed to be done, anyway. we HAD TO HAVE ROLLS ON THE TABLE AT THANKSGIVING AFTERALL, so to hell with his feelings.

Commit to not being independent. Take his feelings into account in everything you do by following POJA. If you slip up, apologize by admitting you were wrong and that you should've planned with him.

When you find that you are not meeting his emotional needs, the best apology is probably to start meeting them again.

And keep in mind that this need can be met in other ways. For example, my DH and I both like a clean house. I do not like cleaning house so I hire someone to clean once a week. That way we are both comfortable with the state of our home. I do the minor day to day stuff and keep the house clean all week.


What part would he not agree with? There is very little I can think of that can be cut out. The PROBLEM with Marriage Builders is that it was designed by an engineer for precision, so the parts all work together like a great big wheel. The wheel does not work properly if all the cogs are not working. The program all works TOGETHER in a very precise manner.

My H and I fiddled around the edges for several years and never got the full effect of the program until we really implemented it in its entirety. There was ONE thing I glossed over and that was my independent behavior. I thought I could overlook that and turn out just fine even though that led to tension that led to occasional fights that led to angry outbursts. Angry outbursts, and the tension from my IB's prevented us from being truly intimate. That one little LB was like a domino that directly impacted so many other aspects of my marriage.

I should add that they uncovered that one "little lovebuster" on DAY ONE of our Marriage Builders seminar. So that was the first thing our MB coach addressed.

So, I don't which part you can effectively leave out and have any success. I am a corner cutter by nature. I have experimented with corner cutting in this program. Unlike most other programs, there are no corners to cut here because this program, unlike others, was designed by an engineer who believed in PRECISION with no wasted steps.