Well ... I am emotioanly spent on the grandma and grandpa issue .. GRandpa insists that he not make his wife angry and so choses NOT to go home. He figures she just needs more time. Both my wife and I have spent hours listening to him vent and giving him advice that he pretty much refuses to do becasue he seems deathly afraid to anger her.

My wife tore a STRIP out of him telling him that as long as he continues to NOT go home he is enabling the affair and how we are trying to cope with it here. We feel we are wasting our time now.

The pastor is NOT helping any .. at all ... i regret even speaking to him. Turns out the pastor is taking a symbatical (spelling?) from the church in the not too distant future. I fear also that we didnt make a proper stand agasint grandmas affair while she was here .. and only made things worse by giving her HNHN. I sent SAA to grandpa 2 weeks ago and he has not recieved it. I think grandma got it and kept it from him.

I am SOOOO done! With my marriage builders as my filter, all i see around me is ugliness! I see how ugly my mother is and her infidelity .. and my dads, my grandparents on my dads side ..on my moms side .. .. and almost everyone I know is or was a perpatrator of an affair of some sort. Its like a plague! my own marriage was close to heading down the same path but god kept us together and kept our moral compass in check (somewhat) and had us telling ourselves .. to hang on I am bulding character here ... give it some time (for our marriage that is).

Now that i can see and understand fog in a new way, i smell BS everywhere i go! I look back at my childhood and now i have new understanding of my parents.. makes me want to slap everyone i know! These past few weeks has been very depressing ... emotionally .. which in turn is affecting my UA time with my wife ... and how I have been interacting with my children. I just can not get my head unwrapped from all this crap! On one note .. i feel called by god to give this message (and I have) .. and pulled towards helping but my taker is saying ... no no no!

Sorry .. im rambling ... my head is spinning trying to understand why grandpa will not do what he needs to do .. we even asked him "with all the advice your getting .. whos has rang true?" he says you guys.. then we say .. then why will you not listen to us now that we tell you to GO THE HECK HOME!

Of course with this opening up my own scabs of an affair that my mother and dad had that resulted in a divorce and the break down of my own childhood ... I have been reaming them out too .. im disgusted! I want to disown them but i love them all at the same time.

GAH! rambling again ... sorry .. just needed to vent some random info flowing through my head right now.

You know, this sounds like the way Dr. Harley talks about his family history. At the seminar last year, he told us that at one point, he and his brother were the only male members of his family that had not had an affair. And then his brother had an affair!

It is like a plague.

Hang in there, MrNiceGuy! Motivating people to make a good decision is not easy!

(And don't forget to go love on MrsNiceGuy and the NiceKids. It sounds like they could all use some loving attention from a calm MrNiceGuy! )

Thanks Markos .. today is a MUCH better day. I felt much better after my random vent above. Went home .. chilled out ... turned off my phone and decided to lead my mind and my wifes towards some quality UA time last night. Today feels fresh.. and renewed. My wife is AMAZING! I pampered her last night .. and she returned the favor. Much needed for both of us as we have been neglecting out UA time .. hard to have pleasant convo when doom and gloom is all around us these days. But its Not my wife and I .. its everyone else. I just want to run away with my wife and kids and get away from it all .. but easier said than done.

Whats really disturbing me right now is how i used to just accept every ones BS and avoid the touchy topics .. but lately I have been speaking my mind about all this to every one which turns into discussions that are withdrawing love units from everyone i know, mostly because they dont agree with how I am being involved in grandma and grandpas scenerio. (i have exposed what I know to most everyone I know and am getting heat for doing it)

Since grandpa is clueless on what to do i feel like my wife and I are doing all the foot work for him. This has to stop because I can not save his marriage for him .. we have given him all the info he needs and he still doesnt listen. Most I exposed to (he didnt want me to but i did) tell me to "stay out of it and do not give ultimatums" and that its "none of my business" and to "stop burning bridges" everyone I mention this scenerio to seems to be getting defensive about my actions.

Possibly I feel so compelled to be involved and help grandpa is because of my own past .. wishing i could have saved my parents from what they did ... am I wasting my emotions here with my wifes mother and step dad? (yes this is my wifes mothers second marriage which after further investigation reveals they married after living together .. and he was in grandmas back pocket while her relationship she was in (that was after her first marriage) became rocky.

I have deep rooted scabs peeling off because of my involvement and its creating resentment in me towards my parents now too (they are long divorced and had several relationships since) even though years ago I claimed to be over it (without having true understanding) .. and I thought I was but, with my new perspective on affairs, the ugliness of my families past are causing me to withdraw from family members that have been around a long time. I almost want to disown every adulterer in my family (which is almost all my elders) now because of my strong convictions towards it. Is that wrong to feel that way even though it was a long time ago? Almost my entire family thinks marriage is just a piece of paper because of the turmoil they have experienced or perpetrated.

I am so disgusted and frusterated by my family and now my wifes family because of how polluted they are with wayward thinking as we view them all with a marriage builders filter. I am christian and I am supposed to forgive .. but this is all just so icky.. makes me want to bathe after hearing their fog talk and being around them all .. seems most of my family and my wifes are in a fog of sorts and become very unpleasant to be around just knowing their opinions.

Sorry ... more venting again ... I can not WAIT for hunting season (3 weeks!) ... blast me a few deer and fill my freezer to work off some steam. i have POJA'd this with my wife and she agrees i can go this year if i take DD13. (who wants to come any how) But in the next year or two my wife is willing to join in the hunt and make it a family event! Since we like camping alot .. all of us .. it would make it more interesting to have something official to do while we are camping, not to mention there is no fire bans during hunting season. I am excited for that day to come at some point.

Well .. I am off to have a great weekend with my wife and kids ... and not going to lend an ear to grandma and grandpa for a while so my batteries can charge back up. It is soo draining to listen to their fog talk. They have the tools ... and the advice they need. All they gotta do is work it. I can only lead a horse to water.

Again thanks for listening to my venting ..

MNG

---Do you know of anymore verses like these or these specific steps you talk about?? Where can I find it? I would like to read what god says about how to deal with a fellow brother or sister who is engaging in sin like this.---

Colossians 3 really got to me recently in a bible study:

Colossians 3

Living as Those Made Alive in Christ
1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.[b] 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

12 Therefore, as God�s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Instructions for Christian Households
18 Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.
20 Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.
21 Fathers,[c] do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged.

22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism.

Thanks HappyHeart. I appreciate that!

Its funny you mention this verse .. i happened to stumble on it while commuting to and from work reading the bible on my blackberry. With this one I also prayed to cloth myself with the armor of god. Seems since I did that all I have been doing is spewing truth at everyone and I have been getting flack for it from every direction around me. Not many like the new me and my perspective anymore (other than my own household and a few friends who are on board with MB too since they have seen the drastic changes in my wife and i and have taken MB on themselves)

Hi all .. Things are going horribly wrong in my home. My wife and daughter are fighting ... my daughter has been hiding communication on facebook with grandma from us (found out by keylogger). Whats bothering me about all this now is the fact that my wife and daughter are at each others throats right now and I am caught in the middle .. expected to be just as angry at DD13 as my wife is for my DD13's disrespect and angry outburst last night that I was not there to witness after my wife confronted her about this hidden communication that we found.

My wife put up some stricter rules for DD13 in regards to her facebook activity and computer access and I agreed with them calmly, but to my wife for some reason this is not good enough. What Am i doing wrong? I didn't feel the need to lash out so harshly as emotions have already been running high and love bank balances are very low due to neglect for ALL of us. I didn't want to make the holes any deeper for anyone in my home.

Back story ... since all this has taken place .. it has had a HUGE negative emotional impact on my entire household which has resulted in my wife and I to withdraw from each other and neglect each other for several weeks now which has withdrawn HUGE amounts of love units in a very short period of time probably to the point of almost hating each other now. I feel bad that my DD13 has such a HUGE love bank balance for grandma where my wife has not had a relationship with her mom (who is grandma in this situation) ever and has a very large negative balance towards her.

I am so worn down emotionally .. that I do not have it in me to come down hard on DD13, as my wife wants me to, which then sends my wife into a rant of DJ's towards me saying alot of awful things that really hurt, after which i could no longer keep my cool and I yelled back. (which i feel horrible for doing).

After my wifes talk with DD13 and DD13's emotional outburst, I had one with her too but with my wife there. I was empathetic about how DD13 is feeling and was not harsh on her for what she did, but should I have been? I do not even know where to begin to fix all this mess that has been created and its spiraling out of control to the point i think my wife hates me now too. I cant even look at my wife right now ... shes throwing daggers at me when I do. I feel this entire thing is all my fault.

So after our blow out last night ... I sent grandma a letter on Facebook about how disappointed we are and how she is being so selfish and that she is NOT to contact DD13 unless she contacts us first and until she gets her life straightened out. I also blocked her, removed her .. and blocked her from Emailing DD13.

Maybe I handled this all wrong and I need some 2x4's from an objective perspective. I do not know how to handle my wife OR daughter anymore with all this pressure and negativity around us. If you have any questions or suggestions .. plz ask. I need some guidance. I am at the end of my rope and hanging off the knot at the bottom. I feel like I am losing my family and my sanity at a very rapid rate almost to the point where I do not care anymore, which is sad because just a few weeks ago (before all this went down) I would have told you I had the best family ever. Sad how fast things can change.

Sorry for the rant ... and if you read it ... thank you for listening.

MNG

Edit to change a minor detail.

MrNiceGuy, the way you and your wife handle your daughter should be decided with mutual enthusiasm. Neither one of you should be addressing her about it until you've both talked about it and come to a mutually enthusiastic decision.

Some things I've heard Dr. Harley say that may have bearing on your situation:
* In childrearing, parents first need to come to enthusiastic agreement about what the children's rules will be, and then they need to come to agreement about how the rules will be enforced.
* Parents should discuss these things privately, not in the presence of the child, and the contents of the discussions should be kept private. All the children should know is the final decision the two of you have made. They shouldn't know what you originally wanted or what your wife originally wanted.
* The unconditional love a father tends to have towards his daughter is just about the strongest love Dr. Harley has ever seen. It is so strong it often wrecks stepfamily situations, due to the father's inability to put his wife's feelings above his daughter's. If I understand correctly this is not a stepfamily situation, but I'm sure it's still a force to be reckoned with.
* Teenage daughters are trouble. Your daughter is rapidly coming to an age where she will make her own decisions, whether you like it or not, and you will not have much control over her. I'm serious, I swear I've heard Dr. Harley on the radio say that teenage daughters are big trouble. I wonder what Jennifer put him and Joyce through before she grew up and became Dr. Jennifer!
* Punishment is less and less effective as a child grows older. But withdrawal of privileges is not punishment. I think I've seen him write this or heard him say it; I may be mixing multiple sources, though.

Get and read His Needs, Her Needs for Parents if you don't have it. Reread it if you do.

I think you definitely need to speak up to your wife about her disrespectful judgments toward you, and suggest that the two of you follow FGSN to decide what you will and won't require of your daughter here, and what you will do to enforce it.

MrNiceGuy, I urge you to treat this relationship breakdown as the most important problem. You guys can't afford to fight about this. How you resolve this conflict is more important than the conflict itself.

Markos .. your absolutely right. During this break down, both my wife and I have succumbed to our stress and DJ'd and AO'd each other to a negative LB balance again. I did mention that during our "tiff" to my wife, however at the time it didn't seem relevant to her in her emotional state. I totally under stand too.. there is a reason but no excuse.

Anyhow.. my wife apologized yesterday after work for her Dj's and the emotions are not running high right now so I will take that as a positive and just remain calm during this storm and wait for the rainbow.

Since giving Grandma that no contact with DD13 note after going behind our backs to disrespect us via Facebook .. she has now approached my step sister, whom DD13 visits often, and asked her to allow them to have contact on when DD13 is over there! Fortunately my step sister told us right away because she has already been exposed to, as we have pretty much told everyone who knows grandma and DD13 says shes tired of the drama and is kinda glad i blocked grandma from her facebook and blocked her from sending emails to DD13 too. The pressure is on grandma now and she seems to be scrambling to round up an army of some kind which I hope includes grandpa at some point. Grandma is FURIOUS at us which is taking the heat off grandpa.

So all in all .. things are looking up and I have cut off grandma and gone into a kind of plan B with her since she is not improving or making any efforts to reconcille.

THanks for listening!

MNG

Well .. new development with Grandma and grandpa. Grandpa called the police to see what his rights are and to inquire about going home (since he can not get in) and discovered that grandma has already filed a police report against grandpa and told him if he was to go home they would have to arrest him.

Also we believe we may have discovered who this OM is (grandpa noticed grandma spending alot of time with one of the worship team members.. and this OM is seperated from his wife (just recently) becasue she does not trust him. My wife added this lady (apparently OM's wife) and is going to attempt to converse with her about this and reveal an email that this OM had sent grandma that grandma posted on her facebook wall for us and all her face book friends to see .. since we exposed her on her wall.

This email contains many of the verbatim that grandma has repeated to us and to grandpa, which has set off grandpas gut feeling that this is indeed the OM. No solid proof .. other than everyone is now questioning her time with this man (music practice .. lunches every day etc) and that the OM is now seperated from his wife.

Grandpa is feeling alot better about himself currently as he finally got a computer and is learning to use it. He set himself up an email and we have been sending him everything that grandma posts on her wall .. via email to grandpa along with all relevant MB material that he needs to read.

The Email also contains information that validates how grandma is feeling and also slandering my wife and I saying that her grandpa .. and my wife and I are all doing the "devils work" for he thinks we are using my DD13 against grandma when in fact we are just eliminating and protecting our DD13 from all this stress becasue grandma continues to try and contact her behind our backs. Also that grandma is being accused of things she has not done (according to this OMs email letter to grandma).

SHould I post the letter he wrote here? Is it necessary? After reading it it sure seems like he is the OM.

The pressure is on ... and grandma is scrambling now like crazy and FURIOUS at my wife and I for our exposure. A wack of her facebook friends dropped off her list the last few days too. She is going to HATE us ...lol .. I also have been posting marriagebuilder links on grandmas wall too pertaining to information about "how to survive infedelity" so all her church friends may read and understand.

Thanks for listening.

p.s. my Wife and I had a good talk .. we realized that this stress has really set us back on our UA time .. so we went out and had a great night last night with our children ... my DD13 (who is cut off of pc for now) feels much better and thanks us and appologized to us for her disrespectful behaviour .. she feels it happened because of her contact with grandma that was behind our backs and how grandma has been disrespecting us to her ... and just the general stress of the emotional conditions this is all creating in our home. SO my wife and I, since we exposed for grandpa on facebook, have descided to sit back now and let the exposure do its work.

Now its time to deposit love units back into my wifes account .. and rebuild what was torn down in recent weeks. Have a great weekend everyone ... and thanks for listening and hearing my venting.

MNG

P.S. Grandpa has SSA and HNHN now... confirmed this last night. He is 1/2 done SAA and we intend to send him "love busters"

edit to add p.s.

Does your daughter know about Grandma's infedility?

Yes she does know .. she was the first to know out of all of us .. Grandma was dragging her through the coals before we knew what was going on. Trying to get DD13 to take her side and paint us all like bad guys in all this.

p.s. SHe knew it before grandpa even knew ..

edit to add p.s.

Update on grandmas affair. AFter about 4 days or so of having our exposure info on grandmas facebook wall ... grandma deleted her facebook. But before she could .. almost all her church friends got a chance to read it.

MANY think that exposing on facebook like we did was a HUGE mistake and are not very pleased with us, some even to the point of saying how can we say we love her and hurt her in the same paragraph .. and how that is not of god .. but we are devil spawn for doing this as we did. We are a bit hurt by that .. but we are being the "bad guys" for grandpa since he is so computer illiterate.

GRandma stood up in front of her church after exposure and proclaimed that her and this OM are not having an affair (the OM is on the worship team and recently seperated from his wife).

Well .. Exposure did its job due to all the pressure from her church and all the eyes on them and the articles i posted on her facebook wall about affairs and some revealed info my wife and I had .. etc. Well just the other day grandma calmly called grandpa and admitted who it was (the other worship team member) and her church has now asked her to step down from the worship team. She still refuses to let grandpa go home.

Grandpa has asked me to come up with a plan B letter for him. Any suggestions? GRandma is very well employed and grandpa is not ... GRandpa wants grandma to let him come home since he is living in a travel trailor on one of their rental properties for 7 weeks now. Do you still think grandpa has a chance of reconciliaion?

I bought him love busters and have sent it to him. Should be shipped out today.

Praying for them as we have been asked to not help anymore other than the plan B letter.

MNG

Hey all ... Just another quick update. I feel like a bit of a MB failure in a way. I gave it my best shot ...

Grandma still could not return to reality and give up OM and go back to her marriage. Grandma has filed for divorce on grounds of an abusive marriage and is now laundering money to OM through his mechanics shop. She is trying to deal with the separation of assets without going to court. The affair was in a small town and the exposure I did for grandpa ruined the OMs business since OM was really the only mechanic shop in town. Both Grandma and OM have been outkasted from church aswell since the exposure got out to her entire church.

I have seemingly lost almost every real family member I have since grandma now hates us for what we did and cutting her off her grandaughter. Most of my "family" consists of people that are not blood related. Another "blood relative" down the drain.

On a good note .. I just got back from hunting .. took my dd!# to get her away from the drama and focus on having a good time with me and having some bonding time. Of course this was with an enthusiastic agreement with my wife. My daughter shot 3 grouse and cleaned them too! (with some directions of course).

The wife and I realized we spent way too much energy helping grandpa kill Grandmas affair and are back to focusing on the marriage. Even though I feel like a MB failure .. i do feel a sense of relief that grandpa no longer needs us to help him other than offer a voice of encouragement once in a while now. He has all the MB tools we could get him and regrets not listening to us from the beginning because he didnt FEEL like it was the right thing to do, but in our wasted efforts he now sees he should have.

Time to get things back to normal in our home. THanks for reading my venting. Maybe now I can get offer help again to some other posters here .. instead of pouring out my crap onto my thread lol.

MNG

edited to add minor detail.

NiceGuy, it sounds like you guys did well. I am sorry for the family fallout. It seems every year I lose more and more relatives for various reasons, usually not good ones, but often reasons over which I have no control. Starts to feel really isolated sometimes ... but when things are going great between me and my wife, I don't seem to mind it at all. Glad to hear you guys are back focusing on the marriage. 15 hours! (Or better yet, 25-30!)

What you guys went through was not MB failure. You helped extricate your grandfather from the situation.

If you had not been there, in his desperation he might have gotten into a really bad situation.

We found out about an affair in our town this week, but the BS and WS emailed us all jointly after we contacted them, telling us to back off. Apparently WS is telling BS that they can only recover if BS guarantees their privacy or something. So very disappointing.

Thanks Markos .. You are right .. when things are going good for my wife and I everything always seems ok ... no matter whats going on in the outside world. Its heart breaking to hear grandpa on the phone ... and to see my DD13 upset about the situation. Grandma threw us all away becasue of her shame ... sometimes I feel like i did too much .. and it drove her away even more. I even question myself if i had ever gotten involved at all (grandma dragged DD13 into it so i kinda had too) if it would have ended this way. I guess it was meant to be ...

This is not the first time grandma has ran away from her problems instead of facing them head on ... hard to believe that all this has happened ... and i feel responsible for the escelation that it ramped up to be since no one else, but my wife and I, stood up to Grandma and her nasty behaviour. Everyone else slammed us for our involvement and figured we should have just cut off DD13 from grandma and left it at that but as i seen stated many times .. usually ppl that that dont agree on our approach are either perpetrators .. or have never experienced it so their views are skewed.

*sigh*

Abnormal seems to be the norm these days .. and not many "get it". It sure is a battle to get ppl to do what is right even when its slapping them in the face over and over again. I really wish Grandpa listened to us from the beginning. he gets it now .. but the one thing I am afraid of is him blaming me if grandma says "I WAS going to come home and possibly work on it but becasue you made a fool out of me I will never come back now" and be mad at me for how it ended. I guess its not over until its really over ... who knows whats gods plan is in all this ... hopefully something good.

The good part though is that grandpa is not phoning us every day and sapping all our energy/time anymore as we spoon feed him MB cuz he was too lazy to do all the reading himself .. so i guess thats a plus. I hope he continues to read and learn MB and possibly one day get s a second chance with Grandma if she comes to her senses. Probably not though ...

*shrugs*


MNG

Just a brief update on Grandma ... She is blaming me and my wife for meddling in her business and is sick and tired of always being the one to say sorry .. (ironic) she claims she will have nothing to do with any of us til WE (my wife and I) appologize to her for what we did. (expose her affair). HAHA! I laugh .. like i need to appologize for her affair .. as if i forced her to do it. Psssht ...

Anyhow .. I have caught wind that grandmas AP is really mad at us for what we did and is looking into sueing us for slandering because since our exposure, his automotive shop has lost TONS of business and he is losing money now. (we exposed on FB to his entire church on grandmas public wall).

Does he have any ground to stand on??

Here's the definition of slander: "oral defamation, in which someone tells one or more persons an untruth about another which untruth will harm the reputation of the person defamed."

It sounds like the guy wants to accuse you of LIBEL, rather than slander. Here's the definition of libel: "to publish in print (including pictures), writing or broadcast through radio, television or film, an untruth about another which will do harm to that person or his/her reputation, by tending to bring the target into ridicule, hatred, scorn or contempt of others. Libel is the written or broadcast form of defamation, distinguished from slander which is oral defamation."

If the information you put on FB was TRUE, then he has no case. However, he might hire a lawyer anyway. In that event, you will need to lawyer up yourself.

Yeah ... it was true and still is .. they are still in the affair too. However .. grandma took down her FB page .. so you cant see what was said anymore.

I am not too worried ... but thought I would ask here since many people here have much more experience with this than I do.

Thanks for the info!