discovered text messages and call history on WH's phone in july. when confronted, he admitted long-term affair with one OW. insisted calls with other woman were just calls and he never had any PA with her, just talk (EA). we were married 20 years ago and he dated this woman before we were married and had affair with her while married to first wife. naturally, i'm not convinced that he didn't have PA with her simultaneously with the other PA. he ended contact with both women immediately after i confronted him and is working on marriage. i hadn't discovered this site and didn't know the no contact should be in writing so he told them on the phone and i don't know what was said. no point in redoing this now.

my question is: i am tempted to contact this second woman and ask her questions --

what did he tell her when he called about no contact (he says he just told her i didn't want him talking to other women and she understood because of history).

when was last time they had sex

etc

my purpose is to see if her answers are same as his. should i bother with this?

I learned the hard way that "no contact" isn't final unless you witness it or approve of the letter. My WW gave went into the other room to have a final talk with the OM and end things. What really happened was the OM convinced her to keep seeing him which she did for another month. It wasn't until WW called him on speaker phone with me there that the full separation occurred. At the time we didnt know about the final letter. My point is if you don't witness the no contact by either approving the letter or being a witness you don't know what was said. Someone having an A is a DRUG ADDICT! Would you trust an alcoholic to go to a bar alone to say goodbye one last time? Have him write the letter.

As to talking to the OW. Don't. She will be a trigger for AO, depression, and seeing her wont make you feel better. Your WH has all the answers you'll ever need about the OW and one day when your trust is rebuilt you'll have all the answers you need.

Is OW married? If so, DO contact the OWH and tell him what you know.

i am comfortable with NC call with OW because it is obvious from her insane behaviour since that WH has had no contact with her despite her repeated attempts to contact him. i believe his actions speak quite clearly that he will have no contact with her. i contacted her brother a month ago. he has always known about A and said her family has been unsuccessful in attempts to get her to end it (she is single). anyway, after my talk with brother, she has not made any subsequent attempts to contact us - a miracle!

my problem with the other woman (i'm spelling out to distinguish between the acknowledged OW with PA) is that WH consistently denies having PA with her at any time during our 20 year marriage. i just have a hard time believing him on this point. the only thing i "know" about her is phone calls on his cell phone log and a couple of emails that are not incriminating. so i don't know anything to tell her husband. if that's all there is, i don't think it would be fair to upset him.

ROP, I am very confused about which OW is which, so I hope I have this right. If you would call them OW #1 and #2 it might make it easier to understand. But I would not call the OW and ask her questions. A better way is to schedule a polygraph test and tell your husband 2 days before the test. When you tell him, hand him a list of questions and give him one last shot to come clean BEFORE THE TEST. And if he flunks the test, he is out.

What typically happens is that you will get the truth, or MOST of it before the test. A WS does not like flunking the test and many hope that throwing you some of the truth that you will cancel the test. Don't give into that temptation!

I am going to read your post again to see if I can understand it better.

I went back on your posts and see your husband is an alcoholic who was drinking again. Did he stop drinking?

WH has stated he thinks polygraphs are not reliable and won't take one. my research shows the same. in addition, he is on medications for anxiety and depression, both of which influence polygraph.

OW#1 is the one he admits to longterm affair. OW#2 he only admits EA since we married. i spoke to OW#1 three times since H made NC phone call. of course, all three were AO. the most recent was the day i talked to her brother and she 'guaranteed' we would never hear from her again. so far, we haven't.

my husband hasn't changed email addresses or phone numbers. for me, that has been a good thing. i was able to see and hear OW#1's attempts to contact him. it was obvious from listening and reading her messages that he has had nothing to do with her. if i hadn't had this confirmation, i would still have doubts that the affair was over. maybe this doesn't work for other people, but has been good for me. i am 100% sure this A is over and will never be renewed. H didn't read or listen to her messages because he now hates her and wanted nothing to do with her.

the drinking is fine and i don't want to discuss it here. i'm here to help myself regarding my marriage, not to get help with his alcoholism. we both have help from appropriate sources for the alcohol problems.

How do you feel about your husbands EA? If you hadn't found out and her H discovered it would you rather he didn't tell you?

Affairs thrive in the dark. The more eyes on the OW the harder it is for her to contact him. And an EA is still an A! Change those email addresses! It only takes one slip up in the early days to set back WH's recovery.

This program will be of no help to you if he is still drinking. You are wasting your time [and ours] with all this if he is still practicing.

You have to first resolve his drinking if you expect to recover your marriage. You can't recover a marriage with a practicing alcoholic.

i guess i don't understand EA completely. in other words, i believe my H has/had trouble with boundaries, but now he has acknowledged them and understands why he cannot have "friends" of opposite sex. i have friends of opposite sex but have not had affairs. i don't discuss sex, husband, EN, etc with male friends. if my H discussed his depression and financial problems with OW#2, i don't really see any reason for informing OH#2 of this -- my god, should i inform every man i know that his W has had any kind of conversation with my H?

i understand and appreciate your opinion, melodylane, but respectfully disagree with you. i would appreciate your ignoring me in the future.

ROP, have you read Dr Harley's articles on alcoholism and marital recovery? He is a trained psychologist who once owned a chain of treatment centers. He makes the point, and he is correct, that the alcoholism must first be resolved before the marriage can be fixed. This is because a practicing alcoholic does not have a normal emotional make up that responds to this program.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5048a_qa.html

FALSE

Not sure where you are getting your info...maybe the internet...

Your WH does not want to take a poly becuase he does not want you to know what he has done. That reaction/excuse is a great indicator of where he stands.

Call and talk to a poly tech and ask about his credititials and training. Is he/she state certified? How many tests has he done for infidelity purposes? ASK about medications/depression ect...

If your WH is telling you the truth he should have no problem in taking a test, whether he believes in them or not.

ROP,
Please take Melody Lane's advice. She knows what she's talking about. Your defensiveness regarding your husband's drinking is a sure sign that he is still drinking.

Please don't get upset by the advice you receive here. It's here to help you. None of us are against you in any way! We're here to help!
CT

Don't bother with the OW. She will likely tell you they had sex in your own bed if she thinks that will upset you. You're not exactly dealing with a Girl Scout, here. So, no. I wouldn't bother with that, to answer your direct question.

You appear to be refusing some needed advice, so I don't want to waste your time advising you if that's the case. Do you have any other questions?

Think about the question of "trust" for a second: can you trust him, or can't you?

The answer, as always, is "it depends". Everybody can be trusted in certain situations, and nobody can be trusted in others. For instance, if you two are in pajamas at home in front of the TV and your husband is curled up with his head in your lap, you can trust he's not having sex with someone else while you're in that situation together. Put him somewhere else, and trust varies accordingly.

He has demonstrated his poor boundaries by his actions; it is SAFEST for your marriage if he has no friends of the opposite sex.


That's something you'll want to come to a mutual enthusiastic agreement about with your husband. There's a good chance that if he can't have any female friends, he won't be enthusiastic about you having any male friends.



Unfortunately, in this case you're disagreeing with core MarriageBuilders advice. In every case, Dr. Harley recommends treating the substance abuse before attempting to treat the marriage. The core concepts of building a good marriage simply don't work in the face of an addiction:

* Policy of Joint Agreement: can't work because alcohol is more important to him than you are, and any agreements involving alcohol are clouded by this fact. Additionally, the Principles of Successful Negotiation (part of the POJA) can't work because he will negotiate in bad faith due to his addiction.
* The Policy of Undivided Attention: can't work because he won't devote a minimum of 15 hours a week to spending time alone with you meeting your Intimate Emotional Needs if it interferes with his drinking.
* The Policy of Radical Honesty: usually doesn't work for active alcoholics because their addiction forces them to lie about their activities.

Melody wasn't saying you shouldn't try to improve your marriage. She was saying -- CORRECTLY -- that your marriage stands no chance of recovery while he remains an active alcoholic, and your efforts are for naught if he keeps drinking.

Those three policies are the legs upon which a healthy marriage stands; without any one of them, your recovery efforts are doomed.

my info about polygraph does come from the internet -- the websites of the polygraph testers themselves. they all seem to have a FAQ page that explains about medications and other things that affect test. i don't think any reputable polygraph tester would guarantee results to be 100% accurate. if they could, i think they would be admissable in court.

it's sad to think i can't work on my marriage if my husband drinks. i guess that means that marriage is automatically bad for any practicing alcoholic. at any rate, he immediately began working on the drinking. he is having one drink a week. i would know if it were more than that, believe it or not.

we are working on our marriage and it is getting much better. most of our problems now are the result of my angry outbursts when something triggers me into thinking about what he was doing before. we are spending quality time together and working on each others emotional needs.

He is not "working on his drinking" if he is drinking. You can't turn an alcoholic into a social drinker. You don't do him any favors by enabling him. Marriage is bad for those who are married to a practicing alcoholic. But you already know that.

having one drink a week instead of several is a step in the right direction. i guess this one drink makes him a 'practicing' alcholic but it hasn't interfered with any of the things we're doing to work on marriage. this is the first time he's practiced in 20 years so i haven't been married to him during drinking before. we started dating when he got out of rehab.

No, it is not. It is not a step at all.

Your H is anesthetizing himself by drinking. He's altering his mood. That affects your marriage.

If he has a problem with alcohol, one drink is too much.