Pep -

"required" is an interesting word to use. Have we been practicing POJA and PORH since that date? Actually I believe we had it down better in the 1st year of NC... So, the answer is yes, but we slip up as we're certainly not perfect with either, and I admit to having more issues since October than I did before...

We had 25 years of having a lot of IB for both of us and so we are still both learning a lot about how to be radically honest with one another and only do things that have the enthusiastic agreement of both of us.

One of the issues that came up last week was that I was triggered by a few things that got me thinking (obsessing?) more about him reaching out and calling. I wanted to bring it up and talk about it, but I really couldn't figure out a way to do it without DJs or LBs - or certainly without bring up the affair. So I find myself in "protection" and "surveillance" mode, he senses that something is wrong but I don't want to share my feelings, and then I'm the one who is not being RH.

I know it's his responsibility to make me feel safe and protected. I just don't know how he really can prove to me that he will never ever do this again so that I can feel safe. In reality, he can't. Promises are empty when they've been broken. So the next question is, how many years is it going to be before I feel the level of RH and JA is to the point where I don't feel this way any more? That, I guess, is when I'll feel like there is some form of trust again.

Susie Q -

My husband still travels once in awhile every other month or more, but nothing like in the past. And I'm working on setting it up so I can go with him whenever it's more than one night. The fact he reached out to her when he was traveling was more of "too much time on his hands". He had a free morning and she had sent him a birthday note a few weeks earlier (that I did know about). I think it would have happened whether he was in the office or on the road. If he's not in a meeting he could (not following POJA of course) easily do this whenever he wanted to. He proved that during the affair.

I haven't brought up the affair or POSOW for a long time. I avoid it (see the note I just wrote above to Pep), but I think I do need to bring it up again, and I may do that this weekend. I just have to make sure I can do it without DJs.

You can't make them hate the AP (like we do!), but you sure wish you could erase all the feelings that they had for them. I regularly go and read
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2605990#Post2605990
to realize that I'm not alone. There is no way to drain her LB$. You can only hope that over time the "bank service charges" will take it down to zero where it belongs.

I don't know if he's still foggy. He's always been so good at compartmentalizing. It's that trust thing... I may ask him again about the "what if" she showed up on our doorstep. Though can I believe his answer? Or since he knows what I want the answer to be, will he just be placating me?

Bang!


Trust... but verify!


I'll be a little wierd, and say that snooping can help you build trust in an operant conditioning-like way.

For the first few months, I was checking online phone records daily... sometimes several times. Physically checking the phone daily.

Then, it became weekly... then monthly.

Every once and a while a strange number might show up (thanks for constantly changing numbers, MIL!) and frequency would go up for a bit, then trail off.

So, it works like this; snooping and finding nothing decreases the compulsion to check (decrease in compulsion = increase in trust) whereas having a "hit" like a strange number increases compulsion (increase in compulsion = decrease in trust).

Verification wins over blind trust, and very simple things like - "I had a call from a strange number today, but it was a wrong number" help to build that trust (strange number... call... one minute, one time, never again... OK! I was told before I found it!).

I found presenting the problem as a JOINT problem to be beneficial. For example....how can YOU really prove to him that you will never do the same thing to him (a revenge affair...statistically YOU are the next most likely person to have an affair and you'll have lots of rationalizations and justifications at your disposal)? Your marriage has a trust hole that will take both of you to fill in. Sure she/he broke it but just maybe they'll love you more if you help him/her fix it and acknowledge that given the right circumstances you aren't better than them.

Your promise would become just as empty IF you break it too.

MB methods/practices/principles get applied and over time you both build up practical trust in one another....never blind trust.

Discussing JOINT Extraordinary precautions isn't "bringing up the affair" rather it's protecting the marriage and doing what you BOTH should have been doing all along.

[on that note I think perhaps some couples feel that discussing extraordinary precautions is "bringing up the affair" merely because they never discussed extraordinary precautions with their spouse PRIOR to finding out about the affair but alas....people in strong marriage that never experienced infidelity naturally discuss extraordinary precautions all the time. It's a habit that Dr. Harley noted and observed in the most successful couples and it's what the MB program encourages you to model. But again...it's something BOTH spouses need to address...if you make it just about the wayward spouse implementing E.P.'s while the betrayed spouse continues risky and independent behavior (like the betrayed spouse is allowed to have opposite sex friendships with old flames) then you've missed the point.


I'm 7 years out...I don't constantly snoop on my wife. Her life is open to me and I could check up on her anytime I want AND vice versa. We trust each other but we aren't naive. WE are each others accountability partners.temptation.

Mr. W

Mr. W -

You make some excellent points... Some really interesting ways to look at this and bring up the trust issue without feeling like I'm bringing up the affair. I especially like the idea to turn the tables on him and ask what I can do for him as additional EP's. We have touched on this before, but not in any depth. (throwing the fact in there about RA's could be interesting as well, although that may be seen as a threat? Not sure...)

I'll try some of these tacks this weekend (tomorrow morning UA time!) and let you know how it goes!

Thanks,
pAp

You bet it's a threat. That's reality. Every recovered wayward thinks deep down that it's likely now there spouse will cheat on them....AND that they'll deserve it. I also think every Betrayed spouse in a recovered marriage needs to consciously think about and ask themselves how they will respond if and when they are faced with temptation and that little voice in their head tries telling them it's OK to flirt a little because their spouse betrayed them before.

Some of the saddest cases that come through these halls are guys/girls that cheated on their spouses years ago and now find themselves betrayed. You'll find that they far too often just allow the affair to grow and they just don't feel they have the right to stand up for themselves AND the marriage and it's just too late by that point (the waytards are in Lurv...vomit). The guilt is crippling and the waytard exploits it often publicly as though the betrayed got exactly what they deserved.


Anyway....it's reality...and I might add it's the SAME reality you BOTH had but failed to address BEFORE your husband had his recent affair. The "threat" was always there.


Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

I don't think FWSs can fully follow POJA and radical honesty unless it is for real.
It IS hard to tell if FWS is faking when they lied and lied and looked you in the eyes and lied so many times before. Doing POJA to the letter is a big commitment for anybody IMO.

I continue to snoop, too, even though my DH is doing everything Dr. H. says to restore trust, without his having even read it.

At times I feel I can't keep this up forever, too.

Did you see the part where he says after about 2 years trust should be fully restored? Can an FWS last 2 whole years without serious LB's?

That's where I keep going back to, too, with, can I really keep this up forever?

Yes!

But ask yourself the same question.

Can you last 2 whole years without serious LB's?

Yes! I control my own behavior. It is my job to care for my H by meeting his EN's and avoiding LB's.

Just as it is FWS's job to control his own behavior.

If FWH stays in no contact with OW, and he continues to meet my EN's and avoid LB's, I hope eventually I can begin to trust him again without constantly checking up and snooping.

Well you should never completely trust your H again. Dr. Harley says he doesn't trust Joyce nor Joyce trust him.
Trust but verify.
You will be able to get to a point of not snooping daily, even Melodylane says she still checks up on her DH at times.

When your H has good solid boundaries and keeps your LB full you will have such a romantic M, but should always snoop. It will become less though, especially with complete transparency.

Trust but verify is the correct answer. I don't trust my wife, and she is fully onboard with this and goes far more than the extra mile to prove EVERYTHING. She has no phone or computer of her own, and can't use either without my permission AND in my presence. She is perfectly OK with this. Do I snoop? Yes, of course! But I pick and choose my snooping, so that there is no pattern, IF she were to try to put one past me, which she hasn't, and I don't think she will. We adhere strictly to the POJA and PORH.

Please be careful with quoting.

He was/is refering to BLINDLY trusting your partner.

My wife and I trust one another, but we no longer accept blind trust, as in one or the other keeping secrets and expecting privacy (except maybe in the bathroom). We don't have secrets and we don't expect privacy. These things are counter-productive in a healthy marriage.

Yes you're correct. Thank you.

From the newsletter Pep linked (the reason this thread was started)

From the newsletter Pep linked (the reason this thread was started)

Brainhurts is right. You shouldn't trust your spouse. Of course, as time goes on and you verify your spouse's trustworthy behavior, you will trust that spouse more. But that is the result of occasional snooping. I trust my spouse, not because I stopped snooping, but because I snoop occasionally to make sure that trust is warranted. That is HOW I trust him.

here

HerPapaBear,

I found the article that I was thinking about when Dr. Harley says he shouldn't be trusted by his wife nor he trust her.

It is here Coping with Infidelity Part 4

I don't want to misquote Dr. H's work. I couldn't find where he said blindly. Could you please point me in the right direction? I had asked the mods to edit my first quote. Thanks again.

This is what I got from his article:One topic is loss of trust. How can a spouse ever trust an unfaithful partner again? My answer is that the spouse should never have been trusted in the first place. I shouldn't be trusted by my wife, and I shouldn't trust her. The fact is that we are all wired for infidelity, and under certain conditions, we'll all do it. The way to protect your marriage from something that has been common to man (and women) for thousands of years is to recognize the threat, and do something to prevent it from happening.

Thanks in advance.

You guys are ALL correct. What Harley is saying is very nuanced. What he is describing is blind trust in his initial statement. He says that trust comes from having an open and transparent lifestyle where both spouses know everything the other spouse does. Trust comes from making it impossible to carry on a secret second life.

In other words, trust is not blind, but based on verifiable actions. I "trust" my husband because I KNOW what he is doing at all times. My occasional checking faciliates that trust. He could not have an affair because it would be impossible to carry on the necessary secret second life.

In other words, my spouse can't have an affair if I am with him and can see everything he does. I trust that he won't have an affair because I SEE everything he does. And he sees everything I do. When we are apart, we are in contact throughout the day. We both have access to each other's phones and computers so we can SEE what the other is doing.

When you can SEE what the other spouse is doing all the time, you can trust because it would impossible to carry on the secret second life necessary for an affair.

Ok thank you. Maybe I should put it like HPB says and word it "blind trust"?

Never mind I think I answered my own question.