AI and I have been chatting today, and she's pointed out a lot of my onversational and reactionary flaws in which I have been dealing with you folks online.

So I'm seriously saying: I appreciate you all taking the time to post, and I will be doing my best (under AI's strict supervision) to answer.

Again, thanks for being there for AI, and for venting your frustration at my actions/inaction.

And GloveOil: "Say it ain't so, Joe. Say it ain't so."

I love your breezy attitude this morn. Just 'chatting' with your betrayed spouse, eh?

I think you get off on this...

Words.

Whether you'll make it is based on ACTIONS. So far, your actions say you won't make it.

If you want to make it, give your wife your phone. Then give her a hammer and let her smash it.

And post EVERYDAY.

Agreed

I'm almost waiting to see if we get some Rocky quotes and videos of Eye of the Tiger and Gonna Fly Now for added effect.

I'm not here to throw stones since I'm a recovering WW, but I suspect your casual language and attitude reflect your heart. I suspect that you are just trying to get back to the status quo to get AI off your tail.

You can say some words and do a few things like pass a polygraph to get AI confused enough that she can't see straight. That gives you some wiggle room to "get back to normal" i.e. get back to lying and deceiving.

I am recovering my marriage and it is not "more ups than downs". It is hellish hard work. It is gut wrenching. And we are much farther along than you are and it is STILL like this. You are not being honest with yourself, sir.

TRT, I am extremely disappointed with you. Not surprised though, since you are behaving just like every other wayward. Yup, exactly like every other wayward. You're just so typical.

I would suggest that you do the work that EVERY poster is suggesting to you. That you do the hokey pokey, if that's what someone thinks may help you understand MB and save your marriage. And the people who make you the most angry? Well, those are the people whose posts you should look at most carefully and figure out why. Right now, you know how to instinctively have a.pretty crappy marriage. Your instincts are to lie about your actions. We are here to tell you that that is going to lead to you losing your marriage and a woman who is simply amazing. We are here to help you CHANGE into someone who lives an honest life and has a marriage that is EXTRAORDINARY. Gonna take YEARS of hard work. Your choice. Either way, we'll be here to help your BW. She'll be better off with a new and improved you or without the same old you.

Stop using humour to deflect and cope. It doesn't fly here. What it is actually doing is showing a lack of repsect for your wife and the recovery process. I understand it as a coping mechanism, but I'm here to tell ya that it's not the time.

Have you asked AI every day what you can do for her today? If not, you should start that, this moment. And stop trying to skate by on minimums. This is going to take a MAXIMUM effort on your part for a long time. And in 6 months - a year, when AI hits the angry stage, it's gonna take a man with much more honesty and hard work to be able to PROVE that he's worth it. If you're not willing to do that for her, then let her move on now.

I will have more to say tomorrow, after I see what you have to say.

Oh, and I don't want to speak for any of the posters you have lost, but I have a feeling you can earn them back, once you prove yourslef worthy of their time.

BTW, you don't have time to post here, or to listen to a radio show once a day, BUT YOU DO HAVE TIME TO SURF FOR PORN AND HIDE IT FROM YOUR WIFE??

rightthing,

Recovery isn't for wimpy, lazy men.

I'm sure you wouldn't characterize yourself as wimpy or lazy. But I might be on to something, and I'll explain more if you're interested.

Or you can just keep doing it your way.

Is it really hard to be honest to the love of your life?

Does everything have to be broken?

Okay. Here I am. Warning: Long post ahead.

I don't rightfully remember where I left off before my gigantic silence, but I'll try to fill in the blanks. If I'm missing something, AI will let me know. We've already basically agreed upon that. (And she's already warned me against being snotty or "humorous", which I'm obviously having trouble with.)

For those not in the loop, the internet on my phone has been restricted to nil, as has my ability to download apps. I'm not concerned with that. It just means I have no internet. I have a wife and kids to entertain myself with. I'll have to respond to everybody at the end of the day from now on. No big sweat. Just a lot to read at once. Well worth it, though.

Prisca, yes... I surfed porn on my phone. I made time for that. So now I'll have to make time to post here. AI won't be smashing my phone, though. Not now, not ever. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

Markos, bring it on, man. I'd love to hear your explanation/definition re: wimpy men etc.. I'm all ears.

Scotland, I agree, I'm disappointing several people. I'm not going to beat around the bush here. Straight fact. I'm not making the cut, coach. And now I have to step up. According to AI's recent request (read: justifiable demands), we'll be making a move in the right direction... but I'm aware that it's a baby step. C'est la vie if I want this to work. So ACTIONS ACTIONS ACTIONS.

Y'all can read her thread if you want the list, I'm sure. Saves me having to post it here, I guess. Plus, she's a lot more eloquent than I am.

And yes, Scotland - you're completely right about the humour thing. I won't be using that here anymore (edit: after this post...), though. AI's request that I keep it straight is something I can and am beyond willing to do.

I believe I can "win" back those posters that have left if I show I'm serious. You're right with that one as well. I'd like to see pepper band, MelodyLane, and GloveOil come back.

As for this list, I'm excited about it. It's all action, all the time. I'm in.

Everybody who's said that I'm flippant about this: You're pretty right about that as well. I'm always just floating on by. That has to stop.

My anger is getting the best of me BECAUSE I'M LETTING IT. I'm the only one responsible for it. That's the message I'm getting from everyone and in every book I pick up, regardless of whether or not I read the entire thing. I agree with all of you. I'm reading up on verbal abuse, am currently in the process of being approved for the MEVAC forum, and am reading several books on Anger Management and the psychology of an angry person. I'm also in line to finish these MB books. And yes, I'm excited.

Note: I tried to join a very popular forum, made a phone call to register, and ended up being personally called by the author of several very well respected books on verbal abuse. She insisted that I separate from AI and join a sex addiction group in order to fix my problems. Needless to say, after AI spoke to her on the phone, we both decided that while her books show promise, she's very out of touch with the situation we're in. MB is the way to go, of that there's no doubt.

I know that this is a completely uphill battle. I know that I have to step it up and that I've done quite the opposite. I'm here (again) to glean advice from all of you. Bruce Lee style, is what I call it. Take the good and trash what isn't necessary (i.e.: those of you who like to come on here and bust my balls for fun).

As I've said before (and caused quite the vomit worthy response with ) I'm in this for the long haul. I suggest that any of you who haven't should read AI's latest two LONG posts. I'm aware of ALL of the conditions outlined therein, and have signed on for total commitment in order to create something amazing with her. Old me is about to get stabbed to death, and we're both holding the biggest knife in a grand display of grotesque wedding cake soul carnage.

What else, what else...

I've had a good long stretch of great response from AI because there ARE some things that I'm going right. Unfortunately, whenever I do something stupid or bad, it negates everything that preceded it. So the idea here is to eradicate the crap and keep up the awesome. I have a good idea as to how to do that, so that's what I'm going to focus on. Quit AOing, DJing, and all the rest of the Love Busters. I'm also going to have to ditch this entitlement and all the terrible personality issues I have. They're not helpful. They're destructive. So they need to leave.

I haven't been asking after AI's feelings enough, and I haven't been trying to understand where she's coming from. I'm cold and distant from the whole experience. I'm working on that with AI. We're going to figure that one out together.

One thing I've found that helps my anger and aggression is demolition and construction. We're taking care of the house these days, and that requires a measured amount of skill and/or brute strength. The days where I'm active seem to the days where I'm most docile and actively helping AI with everything under the sun. Granted, I haven't figured out how to speak properly yet, and tend to just vomit out whatever is on my mind. If anyone can give me some suggestions for that, I want check them out.

MFJ1974, It's not hard to be honest with the love of my life. And no, not everything has to be broken. So why am I doing it? Your guess is as good as mine. Terrible habits and massive disrespect are my first two guesses.

Markos: You said a few pages back that AI even witnessing one of my AO's, whether directed at her or not, is brutal for her. She's communicated that to me without hesitation. I'm handling that as we speak, and am looking for advice as to how to curb that part of myself. AI and I believe that our biggest challenge is my anger, sense of entitlement, lying, and DJ's. They need to be addressed immediately.

You also asked me what I meant by being on high alert regarding my manipulation tactics. I mean just that. I'm looking for them in my speech patterns and "emoting" patterns. They're tactics. They're easy to spot and stop. The idea here, though, is to defeat them and make sure they don't happen at all. We're looking into that.

You also asked where I went. I went to town on the house and got all aggro on inanimate objects. Really kills the anger when you're on a roof in the blazing sun, ripping off shingles, doesn't it? Now what should I do when I'm IN the house and don't have any repairs to do? I've been teaching myself French as a kind of mental exercise, and it seems to be working really well.

When you were in your dark days, Markos, what did you do when you found yourself getting wicked pissed?

Prisca, What did you do to help Markos on his journey to destroy the angry man he'd become? I'd like to glean information from your side of this as well.

BrainHurts, You asked me what the consequences for broken EPs should be. I'm not all that sure at the moment. The hugely asinine side of me (that most of you would argue is my entire make-up) says that nothing should happen. The rational side of me thinks that looking at porn on my phone and then losing my internet like a shamed teenager is quite appropriate and massively embarrassing. I can tell you, I won't be surfing for porn any time soon... that's for sure. As for the bigger EPs... divorce is the only way to go and the only way to ensure that I won't break them. Do you have any suggestions?

indiegirl, You're right. my "ups and downs" comment was ridiculous. Even without you pointing it out, I can immediately see how absolutely stupid that was. There are no "ups and downs". There's only hell. A hell that I'm responsible for.

GloveOil, Yep. You're right. I took a gamble on some BBW ebony porn. Stupid move, and wicked horrible outcome. The lying wasn't worth the pain I've caused. There's no way around that. I'll see you around, Babe (Ruth). I'm hoping you come back after I prove myself to be serious here. Your advice has carried some of the most sound words I've ever read. I'm genuinely sorry to have disappointed you, of all people.

zibbles, Nice trying to stoke my anger. Kudos to you for trying, but I'm just going hit ignore on you unless you actually have anything useful to say.

LIAC4M, You're COMPLETELY right. I should be taking the vets' advice as solid gold. As you can see above, I'm not all that good at dealing with criticism. I consider my last jab (directly above this) to be the last one I'll engage in (well... this post really...).

Was it necessary? No. Was it worth it? No. Did it feel good? Yes. Did it accomplish anything? No. So that's it for me. Done.

You're right. I haven't gotten over myself. And AI is in the process of throwing me over myself, so we'll see how it goes. I'm going to help her by grabbing my feet and hucking me as far as I can go. Trust me when I say that this is a beautiful, amazing, loving woman, and that I've done her wrong... more wrong than I can ever know. I want a life with this woman. So out he goes.

I would only expect the vets and the most valuable folks here to stop putting up with my BS when I get stupid. I'm sure they've seen it a million times over. You're right. And AI needs the bulk of the help in recovery. Me? I need to be taken out back and have this righteous indignation beaten out of me. Agree? If you can suggest anything I can do on my end, please throw it my way.

black_raven, I hope I don't have to clean that up...

zibbles, I don't get off on this. I'm having a hard time expressing myself... as you can see from the myriad of sarcastic and off colour remarks throughout this entire thread. But thanks for weighing in.

Prisca, I intend to post every day from here on out. But it'll be once a day, at the end of the day, as my internet has been severely limited (rightfully so, I think you'll agree).

black_raven, I don't know how to post video or anything, otherwise you can BET I'd have done it already. But, as usual, I'm just going to have to sing these songs in my head while I'm committing to actions and not just words.

FindingFreedom, You nailed this RIGHT on the head. Of all of these posts I've responded to, this one got through the most. Thank you. If you have any advice, I'm all ears (gonna leave the mouth out of this...) And you're right - this is hell. For both of us. But I created it. I have to amp up my actions and shut the hell up. Right? Throw whatever you can at me. I'm listening.

Scotland, I'm ending this string of responses with yours because I want to promise you something. I'm not going to use humour to deflect anything from here on out (at least intentionally). Your words cut through the [censored] quite well, and you've done AI and myself a great service. Thank you. I'm done with the snotty and arrogant BS. From here on out, straight facts and hard work.

So there it is. I'm going to post something right after this, so I hope you're all still listening after I've made your eyes bleed with my post here.

Okay - onto the list AI gave me.

So far I've:

- Posted on the site (as you can see above).
- I've joined (and am pending approval on) MEVAC.
- I've deleted the two remaining email addressed
- I'm going to set up a full transfer of AI's laptop to the main computer.

Tomorrow morning we're going to go get AI's name put on the ownership of the van and have it sworn as a legal document.

I'll make time EVERY DAY to listen to the MB radio show. Rerun or original. Every day. And when we pay down the credit card (so I can download apps again) I'll get the MB app for the iPhone. (Can't download even free apps when you're maxed out, apparently... anyone have a way around this?)

I figure it'd be to my benefit to take notes and maybe comment about the shows in my thread. Anyone agree?

AI and I are going to prioritize our reading ASAP. I doubt all of these requests will take the week to run through if I actually sit down and do them. That's reassuring. And then I'll encourage AI to come up with a new list, AND I'll take the initiative to do something things myself. Good idea?

Also, I have to make a few appointments to talk to financial people for this idea we have brewing. It has the potential to have me working with only men, her uncle, and to bring in a SIGNIFICANT amount of money that we can put towards our debt - thus giving us more financial freedom. We're dirt poor right now and in more debt than every. That's always been a point of shame for me, and I'm dedicated to fixing it alongside this relationship. In fact, before AI found out about my affairs, that was the #1 thing we fought about. It's only right that I try to go the Health/Wealth/Happiness route.

And if that works, I won't have to feel a kidney to afford the next poly.

I'm also going to watch my tongue and start saying things like "How would you feel if I..." instead of "I'm going to go do this now". I'll reread the chapter in LB about independent behaviour asap. In fact, I'll just read the whole book. Twice would probably be a good idea.

These are the initial steps. I'm aware that this is going to be absolutely brutal. And when AI hits the angry stage, I'm going to be read for it. I won't fight. I'll just help.

I'm off to bed now. Shingling continues tomorrow and we we have a laundry list of things to do together.

Again, I appreciate y'all taking the time to be here with me. I'll try to to disappoint again.

Note: AI just hit a really low point, and I was there for her. I'm going to go be with her again right now, because that's what she needs and that's what I can do. Hold her hand and help her through this. It's "the right thing" to do.

I hope I earn this name someday. I will earn it.

1. Please count the number of times in the previous two posts you have used the words I/me. Please count the number of times in the previous two posts you have used the word AI. Please reverse these numbers in your next posts.

2. If you don't have internet access on your phone, how will you used the MB app? My husband uses one computer and has no internet access on his phone. These precautions are to make me feel safe forever and there is no likely timelimit on changing them.

Finally, you wrote,

"BrainHurts, You asked me what the consequences for broken EPs should be. I'm not all that sure at the moment. The hugely asinine side of me (that most of you would argue is my entire make-up) says that nothing should happen. The rational side of me thinks that looking at porn on my phone and then losing my internet like a shamed teenager is quite appropriate and massively embarrassing. I can tell you, I won't be surfing for porn any time soon... that's for sure..."

The difficulty with this answer is that you focus on you. Please re-write your answer with the focus on the impact on your family, not you. If nothing should happen, what protection is there for your wife and children? You were acting as a "self-protective liar", lying to keep your "secret, second life (independent behavior". With focus on AI, please address why it is wrong to look at porn and why it is wrong to lie.

I agree with re-reading "Lovebusters". Learn about them and then stop doing them.

AM

The following post is based on the presumption that you are telling the truth that it WAS porn, not something else, but I think both we and AI must appreciate that is a very big if and that your word is not trustworthy.

Firstly, if it is true, you aren't a 'shamed teenager' you are a married man who deliberately hurt his already betrayed wife by breaking the vow to forsake all others.

To get off sexually by viewing other women online. Well, every betrayed wife who has questioned her own attractiveness would agree that is just salt in the wound.

The teenager wouldn't be hurting anyone, or breaking a vow. And I find your response to the aftermath of the broken EP astonishing. Focusing on your shame instead of AIs broken heart.

Secondly, there are no 'bigger' EPs and no 'smaller' EPs.

Seeking other women to satisfy yourself sexually with? What could be a bigger broken EP than that?

All EPs are to protect your spouse so just one broken one is cause for a D or separation.

AI has chosen not to leave you, and she is putting her health at risk by doing so. So I disagree with you that losing your internet is a just punishment. I think you walked scot free from that one.

I get the impression you think looking at porn is no big deal.

Given that your word is not trustworthy and that you think porn is no big deal...

I think you lied to her. I think you were doing something you consider a larger crime but covered it up with a 'smaller' EP.

People who do untrustworthy things like deleting internet history, CANNOT be trusted.

People who view porn and extra marital sexual experiences as no big deal are one step closer to PAs than those who do.

AI is getting these messages from your behaviour loud and clear and her tolerance clock is ticking.

She won't be able to choose to love you if this continues.

Her mind and heart will snap and there will be nothing she can do about it except to remove you from the situation.

Proper demonstration of remorse and repentance should:

1.) restore dignity and self-respect to AI, assuring her that she is a worthy human being. Sneaking into the bathroom to view porn, or breaking any other EP, or LB�ing her, shows her the exact opposite. That behavior shows a lack of respect on your part.
2.) Shows that you accept responsibility for your actions � not only your infidelity, but your half-azzed attempts at recovery so far.
3.) continued care shows AI that your marriage can be a safe place for her.

You also need to understand something. �Shame� ("feeling like a shamed teenager") is not useful to you right now. What you should be feeling is guilt. There is a difference between the two. Let me explain.


Do you see the distinction? Shame is selfish. Shame focuses on you. Guilt, on the other hand, focuses on your actions that have harmed AI. Guilt should trigger you to feel remorse for your actions and should spur you to accept responsibility for them by feeling remorse and making restitution to your victim.

You must focus on controlling your impulses. That includes your fortitude to refrain from LBs (especially dishonesty, AOs, IB) and to adhere to EPs. As long as you continue to jeopardize your long term goals � a recovered marriage � with immediate satisfaction � porn viewing (or committing a LB or breaking any other EP - they are all equally important) � you are continually demonstrating irresponsibility and are not safe for AI. Ultimately you, and only you, control your actions.

I trust you can't clean up anything


I know


Nope

I kicked him out till he was serious. The rest was up to him.

Ripping off shingles and learning French ?? Is this your recovery plan ?? This is a distraction. I feel like I need to lay down and rest after reading your posts. I'm not kidding.

FOCUS,man. I suspect you fill up your life with a bunch of stuff to distract you (and AI ) from the real problems and issues of life. Then you can say, "I'm lovebusting because I'm so tired...from ripping off shingles in the blazing sun". But hey, you can say it in french.