Choosing to recover is a CHOICE.

You are not required. You have the get out of jail card following an affair. No one is forcing you to do the hard work of recovery.

I think you both have done great work and have a great shot, but you are the one who has to decide of it's worth it to you.

I'm so sorry. I know recovery is really hard, even when the steps ARE being followed. We were fortunate in that after D-Day, the fog lifted in a couple of weeks, and my FWH became incredibly remorseful, jumping with both feet to MB.

He had stopped the masturbation habit cold-turkey years ago, when he attended a sexual addiction group through a church. But there were many men in the group who dropped out. During the years of the ongoing habit, though, H apparently completely lacked a sex drive. I just never suspected that was the reason. Even after he stopped, we didn't have MB, so we didn't realize the reason for the maybe once-/twice-weekly sex was due to my own ENs not getting met and therefore being reluctant to meet his.

I wish I could get my H to post, because he has some insightful things to say on this subject. He just can't believe he wasted so many years being selfish (his words.) He knows he missed out what could have been so fulfilling. He loves what we have now. And I do, too.

One thing Harley talks about on his CD in the SF section is what does a man do with his sex drive when he needs to stop masturbation? He needs to be able to enjoy SF with his wife, but in order for this to happen, he must become an excellent lover and make it enjoyable for her.

Back in the day, my H was rarely affectionate with me,hardly ever engaged in intimate conversation with me, and was fat. So when he wanted sex, was I willing? No! I did still want to in concept, but not when he wasn't even affectionate with me, except when he wanted sex.

It all works like a four-wheeled cart. All the wheels have to work for it all to be fulfilling for both partners.

I don't mean to beat his masturbation habit to death, but I saw it ruin my own marriage. He made it so he didn't need me to meet any of his needs except DS. And he rarely ever expressed his appreciation for a well-prepared meal.

What I suspect would happen were your H to completely end his habit is that he would turn to you to meet his needs. Once he allows you to meet that need, he would enjoy being with you and see you differently. Does that make sense? He would so enjoy the SF experience with you that a few physical flaws would fade in importance.

All I know is that were my H not remorseful and were he to continue to engage in independent behavior, such as masturbation, basically refusing to meet my ENs, I would have rethought staying in the marriage. The marriage is supposed to better than pre-A. And Dr. Harley puts a lot of the emphasis on the man, especially a man who's had affair(s.)

Is this a requirement for recovery? What is your boundary if it does not stop? Plan B? It is very bad for your marriage.





LWFH home says people downplay the effect of mastubation. Then you go ahead and downplay!!!!

Its so much easier to masturbate than POJA a successful sex life.

Thats why your H does it. No discussion on who initiates. No requests need to be made, no work needs to be done. Its why every married person does it.

And you do it FOR THE EXACT SAME REASON. Its easier than the work of POJA.

Plus why would your H take you seriously if you do it too?

It's not all on you. When your spouse gives you a request or complaint say 'I would love to help you feel better about this! What ideas do you have about making me feel enthusiastic to do something about this?'

It's his job to encourage you in DS, encourage you to have fun meeting his PA need.

Just as you should encourage his true enjoyment of SF.

Hmmmm. Taking it personal as in caring deeply is one thing....

But getting down on yourself because the two of you have different perspectives? Calling yourself 'inept' while learning a new skill?

I think Unwritten is awesome.

I wish she did too......

Well, all I can say is I can do it and if H wants to POJA SF 5 minutes later I'm on board with that. I don't have to worry about getting too much or quick on the draw or anything like that.

I do it when H refuses to meet that need, or we aren't successful at POJAing or whatever the case may be (if we've ever actually POJA'd, I doubt it).

Indie, if I can't be the aggressor, I feel like I can barely flirt or insinuate sex much less initiate it, and I have to just sit around being coy waiting for H to do it so he can feel more like the man, I will be waiting forever. And if that happens and I can't even take care of business on my own, you have no idea how resentful and crabby I will be!!! This does not seem like a good idea at all. It is a total lose lose situation.

The difference is that he prefers masturbation to SF. I DO NOT. I prefer SF, but when I am continually rejected for SF, it is the best case scenario just to keep myself sane.

He did for a period of time ask me to stop, and I DID. Then he confessed to me that he had never stopped, and I said...WT...how does that work? You never stopped, continued to not meet that need, all the while I STOPPED?

This whole SF thing sucks. I wish I could develop a sexual aversion and that would solve this problem. I really do. Sex used to be GLORIOUS, I am a gloriously fun sexual partner, creative and energetic and passionate, and now its just one big mess.

I said I would give him the summer. Has he taken that ball and run with it? NOPE. He has his good days, but if I ever let down my guard the laziness and nonchalance, the just living life without making any effort to recovery, sneaks in without a squeek of the floorboard. I cannot continue to be the only one dilegent in this effort.

I am going to stick out this summer, and keep plugging along like I have. For awhile I had visions of coming back with a GREAT recovery story, but now, I have visions of a very different outcome. For now, commence to cleaning. Commence to smiling and being happy and leaving resentment behind. Commence to (now) just giving up on SF and getting that need met, since he is not enthusiastic about it. I don't even know when I am DJing or demanding which means I don't even want to bring it up, for fear of doing either of those things.

Come the fall, I have a choice to make though, you are exactly right. I can't keep doing this forever.

"Just as you should encourage his true enjoyment of SF."

I have no idea how to do this. I have used up all the tricks I know.

Before despairing, unwritten, please consider signing up for the MB Online Seminar. Would your H be onboard with this?

The accountability program really helped keep us on track. We had our coach available for questions, and the private forum for questions directly to Dr. Harley.

If not the online program, then consider a couple of MB coaching sessions. You would get expert MB advice directly tailored to you and your H. I hear on these boards that Steve Harley is very good at selling the benefits of the MB principles to reluctant husbands.

It's his perspective and his brain, not yours, you need to be ransacking.

For now, just put your emphasis on his enthusiasm and tell him if he has any ideas for the bedroom he might like, you will CONSIDER them. If enthusiastic.

Dr H usually recommends asking the partner "why should we have sex?" And "how should we have sex"?

Since he keeps talking about feeling like he is satisfying you, the answer to the first q of 'why' may have more to do with the admiration EN.

He will not agree to the online program. We have the at home program and he feels that is sufficient. I agree the online program would offer us more accountability, I have approached that a couple times within the last year and he is not enthusiastic about it.

Also, we have done some coaching through the coaching center in the past, Steve Harley tried to get ME on board with MB, it didn't go so well. I have never wanted to drink more in my life, and we didn't end the call very friendly. I think things would go 'better' now but I still have a hard time working with him again.

UW, now I'm totally confused.

YOU didn't want to follow MB?

I thought that's why you were here?

It has to be followed EXACTLY. Even the stuff you don't agree with. Its a narrow path to recovery.

Well, I did a P90X workout and an AbRipperX workout today. Doesn't feel like enough. Everyone always talks about the X being so hard but I have never felt like it was that hard, although I don't do it quite as the 'models' do!

Getting Insanity this week, going to try that. Think that will kick my A$$ frankly, we shall see.

My #1 hobby is a sport in the winter that is competitive, so getting myself in tip top shape will benefit me for that reason. Although, I compete against H so....that could blow up in my face! Beating him in a race might not serve me well in making him feel like he is the man in charge. If you even think about suggesting I let him win at competitive sports, forget about it.

Got to get to work on my DS. I am determined to get myself to at least a 0. SAD to be working toward a ZERO in life.

Feel resentful, after all this, and withdrawn. Resentment is creeping in at an alarming rate and I don't know how to stop it. SF seems like the demon to me that I have to fight against, I know that's not what the goal was but that is the result. SF is just filled with guilt, insecurity, questioning myself now. It sucks.

This was over two yrs ago Indie. We were in the middle of trickle truth phase. H sought the help of Steve Harley to help him convince me that we just had to put the past in the past and move forward, EVEN THOUGH HE WAS STILL HIDING COMPLETE AFFAIRS. Steve did just that, work on why I was so resentful and refused to move forward. My answer was, why would I move forward toward recovery when H is still lying to me??? There can be no recovery until he comes clean and tells me the truth! For that, I was made to feel like the stubborn trouble maker, it sucked. I guess I hold a little grudge about it. I wish he had suggested a poly, or something like that, as I knew nothing about such things at the time. Eventually the threat of a poly is what got H to come clean. And it was sometime after that when I started to invest, although with a very high level of resentment and reluctance at first, naturally.

Its been quite a long road.

Well doesn't sound like you WOULD be enthusiastic about that so.. Great boundary against resentment!!!!



Well now you have the truth and can access that recovery guidance.

Things will have been highly strung (and pointless) if you were being trickle truthed. You may find it a different experience now.

One key theme that keeps coming through is him asking you for the admiration EN.

You need him to step up re recovery and he needs to feel he is rescuing you.

So why not do both? Give him a few key recovery steps he can make. Small is good to start with (the grocery shopping was a great idea) and then reward him with admiration. Even small steps like going out to dinner instead of you cooking is a great opportunity to 'reward' with admiration - 'I really feel like youre trying to heal me on nights like this'

You can then suggest and encourage further recovery steps ("doing x would make me feel so much safer and happier") but don't punish his refusals or get annoyed. Allow him to offer his own suggestions too. You have Plan B if he makes no suggestions and refusals are consistent, in the meantime let him choose freely whether to get on board or not. Tempt with rewards but ultimately its up to him. Make no secret that admiration will be the reward and if he has his own requests re admiration - great.

You've said you're quite flirty and assertive so I would guess you're pretty great at meeting the admiration EN?

Its hard in recovery though. Hard to admire around the resentment. I'd ask for the JC I wanted, starting small, then parcel out admiration in response.

Hrm. So we just redid our EN questionnaires and he does not even have admiration in the top 5 this go around. And I certainly don't think of him as a guy who wants to 'rescue' the women in his life. I do know a couple people who are exactly that guy and H is definitely not one of them.

Admiration used to be probably the #1 need I gave to him. I ADORED him and put him so high on a pedestal he was untouchable. Even through all the many yrs of crap, I thought of it as bad choices, growing up, and did not affect how I thought of him as a man. A lot of that has changed, obviously, and he has commented about missing it, so I was surprised he rated that need so low. I do give him admiration now, it is usually focused on his talents and financial support though.

I would say my flirtiness and assertiveness makes me good at meeting the affection need, I am very affectionate, always touching him and kissing his cheek, etc. I think in the last couple of days as I've tried to be 'less' flirty and assertive the affection has suffered greatly. For me its a fine line between being affectionate and instigating so I have to stop it before I even get close, ya know? But I think it is coming across as me being distant, not what I want but he is just so used to me being all over him so I guess anything less will have that affect.

Also, I learned last night that I can't drink anymore, if I want to not be assertive about my need for SF. Liqour makes me want to love him up close and personal.

This is why I think the two of you need guidance. ENs dont change. They stay the same throughout our lives, from relationship to relationship. I suspect he has a higher PA need than he let on before, because his requests were so specific re that. i think the reason he didnt list it is because you meet it quite well, so he doesn't put it on the list as a priority 'in need of fixing'. And he has made repeated requests for admiration - for you to see him a certain way. Yet he doesnt have this a high EN? Hmmm.

Are the ENs being listed in order of 'what is missing' or in order of what makes you both feel most in love?

Sometimes people think it's my betrayal that makes me list O&H as my top need. But I have thought long and hard and it isn't. I can physically feel myself falling deeper in love when someone trusts me and opens up. It's always been the first thing I need to feel anything.

It may be a DJ of me to suggest he's listed his ENs wrong, but this stuff isn't instinctual. Really, most people here including Melody Lane say that when they got a coach they stopped struggling on alone and began to zero in on the recovery path.

I do recall one woman claiming she had a DS need but whenever her H cleaned the house from top to toe, he got zero response.

He did it while she was out. The coach suggested he began 'helping' her with chores while she was there, her response was much more noticeable.

She didn't have a DS need at all, she had an affection need and just wanted him to express affection by helping. How would anyone know that before learning MB though?

Just something to think about. A key clue to someone's true ENs is the person's response

Here's a clip of Dr. Harley talking about this very thing. Our EN can change over time and that's why he recommends doing the EN questionnaire from time to time.

Here.
Radio clip on Emotional Needs

Wow I really miss my laptop, I need to listen to that. Thanks BH!

My understanding is that it's Financial Support and Family Commitment which are the needs which most often change over time.

I don't know if Dr Harley has ever said this outright, but from from what I've read, it's just the PERCEPTION which changes, not the ENs inside you.

He says



Basically that you won't NOTICE the EN until life changes. children come along or your spouse just gives up on being the breadwinner.

Though you may not NOTICE it yet, you can find this EN inside you by imagining those life conditions.

This is why I (personally) would want a marriage coach. They are experts at finding those hidden needs we haven't considered yet.

I think it's natural for a couple working through the book to find their ENs constantly reshuffling as they change the way they behave towards each other. Their persepective changes as they try new things.

I think it will eventually settle down into a more permanent list, possibly changing again if there are significant life changes.

But unwritten is getting really frustrated and I think she needs to see faster results.

While recovery is never fast, it can be more efficient.