Dr. H and Joyce talked about friends on a recent show. I think the idea was that friends are good. This is in the context of a romantic relationship, however. For example, the UA time is satisfied as a priority over time with friends. They also talked about that some of their friends are married couples. I believe when couples have separate friends (or too many of them), this can lead to problems. Big problems.

It's too bad you DW doesn't have time to listen to the radio show. Have you asked her what priority her marriage has over her other responsibilities/roles?

Have you heard Dr. Harley say that if one spouse refuses to meet the other's emotional needs, then Plan B would be appropriate? I often wonder what would have come of my situation if I had pursued legal separation; on grounds of not having needs met. I didn't have the language of MB at the time, so the whole thing seemed absurd, but yet sensical as I was so unsatisfied in the marriage. Now, with MB, I see that there is absolutely justification and with the right approach I may have been able to turn the cruise ship around, instead of abanoning it.

Something to think about.

opt

I have a question.

What do people do when/if a spouse to come post here, but they are trying to do a good plan A. Doesnt it mess things up if spouse were to know about plans for plan A/B?? Plan A cant really be very successful if spouse knows plan B is being considered?

Secondly, she pretty much has said point blank, the kids come first, our marriage is second priority, and it can wait until they are grown/in college.

Yep. I'm pretty unhappy with that. That isnt what I signed up for. I love my kids and have a great relationship with them, but I have right to a full life too.

All the more reason you and her should be talking with Dr. Chalmers. If you were to bring this to Dr. C's attention she'd address it with your W. She'd be the teacher in the "What's wrong with this thought pattern?".

You mentioned friends. I think you could do well finding a nice couple to hang with (so long as it doesn�t shorten your UA time together). My W and I have a few couples we do stuff with. It's not surprising we do more with the one couple that seem to have a loving, romantic M. I think they are really good for our M. They show to us that having that kind of marriage is real. FYI: We and this couple both have 3 children elementary, middle school and high school ages. The kids are important but we are all ensuring we get plenty of UA time together. This other couple just does it naturally � my W and I have to plan it.

Great questions! I've often wondered that sort of thing myself. (Like isn't posting on the forum itself independent behavior?).
I believe the reasonable answer is that you are doing something to help (not harm) your marriage, so, coming here generally is not considered a violation of the marriage agreement. -- most of us invite our spouses here and they can't be bothered, so you have that aspect as well.
Anyway, I would think that would be a question the Harleys would love to address in the show. It is totally anonymous so, in this case, I think the IB would be acceptable; however, if you did POJA this, you might come up with a solution that is even better than your idea (e.g. maybe another call to Dr. Chalmers, or perhaps she might be inspired to start the on-line program, or come here).

Personally, I think Plan B would be effective even if the reluctant spouse knew about it, the goals, and where it was coming from. A prior Plan A might be looked at with some skepticism and perhaps Dr. H would recommend something different to a "betrayed" spouse in that situation.

I could imagine a very interesting discussion about all this however, and I would bet Dr. Harley has actually seen something similar that he could comment on.

opt

Your wife might be interested in a book by David Code that details the dangers of putting children first (over the marriage) in a family. I believe Dr. Harley would advocate this book if he was aware of it. It is very much in line with all of his philosophies, including a very big anger management component.
There is great insight here to the state of this country due to the mindset you describe that your wife currently has; kids do not develop properly with the "kids first, marriage second" mentality.

opt

We had a REALLY nice Valentines Day. I spoke with the HR recruiter, and they are making an offer in Georgia. So both of us are really thrilled at that. I made choc strawberries with the kids, then out to dinner. Everybody has a great time. At home, we opened Vday cards, then went to bed and had more than a great time.

3 Cheers!!!

Fantastic, NYC!
Great to hear it.
-opt

Hey, NYC.
What are you doing to keep the momentum?
opt

Its been a couple weeks of texting, turmoil, both good and bad, but DW wants us to go through the books together, instead of separately. Great news.

Then she told me she read the para where the spouse gets to pick the bedclothes, and she suggested a date to shop for something besides the flanel suit. Great news. Then she came back in the red satiny jamas I gave her 12 years ago. Wow.

She said she has serious reservations about MB, so I asked why. She said she didnt like that we should put each other first over the kids. I explained the several reasons behind this: happier marriage, good example for the kids, and protecting kids and family from divorce is paramount. She agreed.

We talked about sex. A lot. She says she doesnt have problems, I'm just not meeting her needs. I told her I thought I was doing really good, but we talked more about conversation, cuddling, how we greet each other, and more. What I feel like the first real productive conversation we've had in a long while!

Great! Hang in there!

Sounds great NYC!
To what do you attribute the lastest successes??

Sounds to me like a very healthy discussion - perhaps the 'friends and enemies of good conversation' were employed?
And I think you came to a good point: putting your marriage first IS putting the children first.

Here's another point to that discussion: 15 hours/week of UA is only that. 15 hours. Do some math to figure out how much more time is available for good, effective, family oriented time for the children. HNHN for Parents recommends 15 hours of Family Time....in addition to 15 hours of UA. Believe it or not it can be done with some forethought and planning (plus making a living, of course.)

I think you are making great steps and you seem to have a great amount of patience.

thanks for the update.

opt

This sounds oh so familiar. Having been here a long time and even having my wife fill out the EN questionnaire way back when I thought I knew everything I needed to do to make my W happy. The trouble is/was that we were never specific enough. The first thing Dr. Chalmers had us do in our counseling in December was to write down and share the exact things that we want our partner to do each and every day/week to fill our ENs.

It felt quite odd having to inform my W I�d love it if she would provide a hug, kiss, etc at least 3 times a day. My W said she struggled putting a number on what I could do. But once we started doing it I myself noticed it made things so much easier. I knew the exact roadmap of �what to do� and no longer needed to guess if what I was doing was enough. It is quite apparent I wasn�t doing it right before.

And when these specifics are followed up with a check-in every so often to ensure we�re doing it right things continue to improve.

You have to be diligent though. It�s so easy to just skip doing key pieces like the �check-in�.

Runner when you go through the books be sure to ask for very specific things she�d like you to do to fill her needs. And be sure to ask her every so often if you�re getting it right and if there is anything she�d like to add or remove or change to your roadmap.