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Originally Posted by wulffpack_girl
V, you have offered me so much support in the past, and I care about you, and I am worried about you. I feel like we are much alike, you and I, in our feelings of self-loathing and shame over what we have done. Shame because we've gone past guilt and rather than feeling bad about what we've done, we feel bad about who we are.

Rationally I know that I am not defined by my past...I am defined by my present, and the actions I take, the thoughts in my head in the here and now. But emotionally, it's another story. Recently broken and I had a very bad evening which ended with him accusing me of being "bitter and negative" (which yes, I find myself quite often, he was telling the truth) and a later text conversation where I told him I knew he hated me, his response was "I don't hate you. I hate what you did." My response was that I was the sum of my actions. So I get it...I get the whole desire to wear the sackcloth and ashes, even though I *know* it is not productive, I *know* it is not a reflection of who I truly am, and I *know* I am no longer an adulteress.

In our thinking, we've got our redemption so tied up in what our victims think of us that we feel like we can't be a personal "success story" even if we aren't a marital "success story". Yes, we are the proximate cause of our marital breakdown, but at what point do we decide we have done all we can, and can do no more?

That's a rhetorical question, BTW, as I have a stupid, little hopeless self too. smile I hate her. The realist part of me knows that no matter how well I meet broken's needs, he's never going to come back and be a full partner in this marriage, like your H, V. You said:

Quote
My stupid, foolish hopes and dreams want more for us, and some tiny bit of me still believes it could happen. Some of my ENs are met, many of the important ones are not, but it is a tolerable situation in light of what I did and what I still hope for us. I'm pretty sure I'm an idiot.

HHH said something to me just a little while back. He said, "Your hope has turned into shackles and blinders." He is correct.

Both of us want what we believe our M could be. Neither of us want to let that hope go.

This deserves acknowledgement, WPG, for how eloquently, accurately spot-on it is. I am sorry for your painfully gained wisdom, but appreciate it all the same.

Logically, I am not that girl who had the affair in 2008. Emotionally, well...I think the emotional part of me is driving many a good MB poster here up the wall. smile


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It seems to me you are thinking a bit more clearly today. Have you thought about a plan? Are you working that plan? I mean your plan. I think your husband has clearly let you know that he is not onboard with MB, so are you going to find out what your options are at this point?

On a side note, I just had to chuckle at the clarity and "tell it like it is" posts of SugarCane and MelodyLane. Their posts and WPG's post actually helped me, too. I have periods of terrible emotional angst myself.



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I am thinking more clearly today, I believe. I'm glad it is reflected in my posts!

I took Mel's advice and spoke w/ my family today. I also removed a semi-artificial deadline by which to make a decision, thus backing myself out of that corner.

I am developing my own plan, and, importantly, I've come to terms w/ letting go of the hope and being prepared to face what has seemed the worst outcome for a long time.


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That's good to hear, Mrs. V!




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Are you going to write to Dr H? Please do it tonight.


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Yes, I think that is excellent advice. I will post my email here.


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I think this is too long. Can anyone advise edits? Am I missing anything?

_________
Hi Dr. Harley and Joyce,

I apologize in advance for the length of this email. I tried to include the major points, and those turned out to be quite a few.

I have been a member of the MB site since 2008, after I confessed to my husband that I had an affair. He states that he stayed largely for the two young children that we had, but I believed there was hope that we would be able to recover from my infidelity. He even purchased multiple coaching sessions w/ Steve for my birthday after the affair. smile I bought into the program more than my DH, and I had incredible amounts of hope that we could get through this. I also had incredible amounts of guilt, especially in response to my DH's continued pain and resentment. This has been the pattern for 5 years now, and it has driven a number of decisions that I knew at the time to be bad decisions that I justified with what I thought were the right reasons. For example, some months after D-day, I acquiesced to a legal divorce that gave my DH primary custody of our children, no alimony, no strings attached divorce. If he felt that's what he needed to heal, to feel safe in proceeding w/ the relationship, then that's what I would give him. We remained religiously married, and I, at least, in all respects consider us still married. I no longer believe DH does.

The issue is I fear repeating the same mistakes. We are unexpectedly pregnant. As I mentioned, at the time of my affair, one of the principle reasons DH stayed was for the kids, (although as time has gone on, that has become the only reason he stayed). His plan has been to leave once the kids are older. Accordingly, DH refuses to have any more children. I have mixed feelings - while the timing is not great, another child is a blessing. DH issued an ultimatum: if I have this child, he is leaving. He states there is no problem, and that this "is simple" and "easy" - just get an abortion. I have enough sin for which to atone, and I do not need to add further sin by having an abortion. This is a very real concern of mine, yet DH mocks and disparages my attempts to address this. (Understandably so. No matter what my religious convictions are now, they will never compare to my obvious lack of them during the affair.)

I realize a lack of UA and decreased meeting of intimate ENs impacts this. I feel we are at a point where none of that matters: DH will leave no matter what, any hopes I have of a restored marriage and intact family will be dashed, and I will be left with nothing that matters...and an abortion. He "jokes" about me being in California (= far away) doing whatever I want while he lives his life elsewhere - and it hurts, because I know he would be happier that way.

Part of me feels like me having an abortion is Just Compensation, as would be leaving and letting him live his life in peace. However, doing those things will break apart the family that we do have, that still offers benefits to our two boys. I don't want any of these situations to be the case. Unfortunately, I think my actions in 2008 dictated the current circumstances, and there is painfully little I can do about it.


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Originally Posted by V_planifolia
I think this is too long. Can anyone advise edits? Am I missing anything?

I made some changes to tighten it up, it but didn't have time employ the track changes stuff. Sorry.

_________
Hi Dr. Harley and Joyce,


I have been a member of the MB site since 2008, after I confessed to my husband that I had an affair. He states that he stayed largely for the two young children that we had, while I maintained hopes for recovery. We completed several sessions with Steve Harley.

Throughout the last five years I have felt incredibly guilty which has led me to make bad decisions. The most important of these is that I granted him a divorce with full custody or of our children and no alimony for me. We continue to live together and would be considered married in our religion. I am no longer sure my DH thinks of himself as married to me in any sense.

Now, I am unxpectedly pregnant. My DH's plan has always been to stay only while we are rearing the children, so he refuses to have any more. He says that he will not continue to live with me if I have the child.

My own feelings are mixed but basically I do not wish to terminate. In particular I feel that an abortion would compound my sin. My DH mocks and disparages my feelings about this. There is a part of me that agrees with him.

I realize a lack of UA and decreased meeting of intimate ENs impacts our situation. My DH is not interested in MB at this time.

Part of me feels like me having an abortion is Just Compensation, as would be leaving him. However, doing those things will break apart the family that we do have, that still offers benefits to our two boys. I don't want any of these situations to be the case.

I look forward to your advice.

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kerala, thank you so much for the clarity in parsing out my story.


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If you've already sent the email then ignore this, but I am not clear what your question is.

If it is whether you should have an abortion, then I'm sure you know that Dr H would never say that you should, under any circumstances. But apart from that, I'm not sure what you are asking him. I would suggest asking whether there is anything you could and should be doing to save this marriage now, with this third child firmly in the picture.

Have you booked a consultation with a lawyer yet about the existing custody situation? I think this is a matter of urgency.


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Hi SC,

My email has several questions: what qualifies as JC; what does not; and does JC have a time limit of sorts on it? In addition, I am including the request for his advice on recovering the marriage given the current situation, (as you mentioned).

I have not spoken any further w/ my DH about these things, and I need to do that before proceeding with any other plans.


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What things are you thinking you need to talk about with him? Before proceeding with what plans? The plan to send in your email?



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Already emailed - I took kerala's suggested revisions and included the questions I mentioned to SugarCane.

Other plans include everything that may be required depending on how the baby discussion goes. (I am deliberately obfuscating )


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Originally Posted by V_planifolia
(I am deliberately obfuscating )

She must related to a good friend of mine on here. MrRollieEyes grin

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Interesting. This BH�s situation is fairly close to mine. Legally separated, not religiously divorced (a difference is no SF � SF with an adulteress would be so, so icky.) But, I am confused. Again. I will be interested in Dr H�s advice/reply, if any.

Why is this quote about the most important mutual decision they made right after DDay considered a bad decision? Other than in restrospect by the adulteress, that is.

�Throughout the last five years I have felt incredibly guilty which has led me to make bad decisions. The most important of these is that I granted him a divorce with full custody or of our children and no alimony for me.�

According to Dr H, any BS who wants a D has his whole-hearted blessing! Thus, a quick D is perfect MB dogma. This BH wanted a D. That he allowed the adulteress to stay in the house after she begged to be allowed to stay rather than throw her into the street could be seen as compassion for both her and for their children. Until one hears directly about this from the BH himself, opinions to the contrary, including mine, are uninformed.

Anyway, they are not married. They are roommates by mutual agreement. That this adulteress continues to stay in the house and provide SF (and accepts in return all the ENs he provides her, like FS) has been her sole decision. The consequences of her decision to stay are faint reflection on him. They agreed to this and he does not want to change the agreement. Where is the ambiguity? I don�t see it.

Segue to a related MB question � when getting a divorce, why would anyone in their right mind not get a pit bull attorney and not go for the jugular of the adulteress (or adulterer). Why is this BH being condemed for doing what was indeed the best thing for him at the time? His actions after DDay are generally supported by Dr H and MB in general.

Dang, I get so confused by these adulteress threads. As usual, advice to adulteresses on how to treat their BH contradicts Dr H�s advice to BH�s in general. Yes, I know he gives different advice to BH�s than to BW�s. But, his advice to BH�s is, if you are going to separate or divorce after a wife�s adultery get everything you can as fast as you can including all the child custody legally possible (c.f. the thread on When to Call it Quits, Part 3 in Newsletters). This BH appears to have done it right, according to MB. That the adulteress remained in the marital house or otherwise did not ride off into the sunset with soulmate love-of-her-life OM is entirely her decision.

Oh, perhaps I missed it, but I did not I see where anyone asked if this adulteress got covertly pregenant on purpose. As a trap. I doubt her BH is ever going to belive otherwise. At the very least, she vilolated enthusiastic agreement yet again. And now she is getting advice to use enthusiastic agreement to trap by default this BH into having to do something he said he did not want to do way back when, and still does not want to do. I remain confused. This BH appears to have done everything right according to texbook MB. He is very angry because of all the trickery. And now he is being criticised for the adulteress�s decisions and the adulteress�s actions.

I hope this BH relents, actually, and agrees to remarry and raise this new child. IMO, abortion is as wrong as adultery. More so.


One last thing � it is not �incredible guilt� that led this WW to make her bad decsions. This is disingineous. Her decision making is questionable from the very start of her adultery.


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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Well, somebody has to say it, and I haven't been edited for a while, so it might as well be me!

Aphelion, three years ago VP was an adulteress, and you were an abusive [censored].
The difference is that, today, she is no longer an adulteress!


Do me a favor, Mods, and don't zap this until Mr A gets a chance to read it! How about 48 hours? Even he can read those three sentences in that amount of time!

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NG, I really thought he'd been done in at the denouement of the last James Bond movie...


Me: FWH, 50
My BW: Trust_Will_Come, 52, tall, beautiful & heart of gold
DD23, DS19
EA-then-PA Oct'08-Jan'09
Broke it off & confessed to BW (after OW's H found out) Jan.7 2009
Married 25 years & counting.
Grateful for forgiveness. Working to be a better husband.
"I wear the chain I forged in life... I made it link by link, and yard by yard" ~Jacob Marley's ghost, A Christmas Carol
"Do it again & you're out on your [bum]." ~My BW, Jan.7 2009
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Nope, like some troglodyte swamp monster, until it's
beheaded,
castrated,
dissolved in an acid bath, and
incinerated in an atomic pile,
it just keeps returning!

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Originally Posted by V_planifolia
My goal can't continue to be recovery at all costs.
Quote
DH issued an ultimatum: if I have this child, he is leaving.

Well, al least you know what the exact cost would be. Killing your child. This is rather like the film Sophie's Choice. frown

Footnote. This is one of the strangest threads I've ever read. I never posted on this thread until just now, but somehow one of my posts was quoted. A BH posted using his WW's forum identity. MBers argue over the meaning of 'hypocrisy'. Throw in a theory of a religious divorce that somehow allows non-marital co-habitation doh2 .... and you have a movie for the Lifetime channel.

Here is my advice:
YOU get an attorney. Make certain you have sole custody of the child your BH wants you to kill. maybe not possible, but try.






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Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
Well, somebody has to say it, and I haven't been edited for a while, so it might as well be me!

Aphelion, three years ago VP was an adulteress, and you were an abusive [censored].
The difference is that, today, she is no longer an adulteress!


Do me a favor, Mods, and don't zap this until Mr A gets a chance to read it! How about 48 hours? Even he can read those three sentences in that amount of time!

NG,

Taking offense only emboldens him. He takes your expression of upset as a demonstration of your supposed cognitive dissonance vis a vis that you truly regret recovering, don't really like former, cough, waywards yourself but need to tell yourself you do since you stayed married to one and, no doubt, that you secretly harbor deep seated anger at your wife which comes out sideways towards him when under the direct threat of his masterful prose & brutally honest and truthful analysis.

Aph is really to be pitied. I feel sorry for the guy. But consider his value on these boards as the poster boy for Plan C. He's what happens when you don't divorce AND deliberately choose not to recover...to remain in a loveless marriage. A powder keg marriage of contempt and mistrust. It's the purposefully un-repaired leaky faucet of resentment....drip, drip...drip. Resentment he won't express to his wife so he uses this forum to express it to us and any wayward he feels like targeting.

[but wait...I just noticed he said he's separated now...that's new...perhaps individual recovery is finally beginning for the curmudgeon]

Finally...what this forum or MB advises a BH husband to do or not do doesn't apply here as we aren't advising a BH in this situation. We are advising a former ww that wants to save her marriage and family. This is marriage builders...not "whatever-the-BH-wants-builders". If Aph thinks she should suck it up as the former ww, that's his opinion. Fortunately, there are others here that disagree. No biggie.

Godspeed.

Mr. W





FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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