Nicole, I don't see anyone here beating you up.

You came here asking if you were crazy.

Please re-read my original post to you. (I may be the only one posting to you so far who's actually been in an affair.)

Here are the key facts as I see them:

--Your husband was emotionally-involved with this other woman. (Whether it was physical beyond the hand-holding, it's pointless for me to speculate, and I won't.) It's not a matter of definitions. (I could call a pig an Oldsmobile, but I can't drive it anywhere.)

--Your husband is still in contact with her, even if only at these basketball games. This, I can tell you, is bad news. The channel for him to get attention & affirmation from her is still wide open. Her picture on his phone? C'mon. I didn't raise your doubts -- you brought them here before I ever read your first post. I'm here to tell you that your instincts are right. They're not what you want to hear, I'm sure, but you'd be wise not to deny them.

I don't get paid a cent for typing to you. I'm just trying to spare some people some of the stuff I put my own marriage through.

What you do with the info, is up to you. Godspeed.

IF his story is true. IF she was contacting him and using him as a sounding board to talk about her husband. IF she was the one who put her hand on his leg, and he was trying to stop the advance. And certainly if, after discovering all of this you have a major issue with her. Then why on earth does he still have her in his phone???

If all of that was true, at the least, she would be in interloper in your marriage, assaulting you and putting a wedge between you. Why would he entertain that for another moment?

He says he isn't in contact "like that" anymore. WHY would he be in contact with her AT ALL?

This is rhetorical, because I already know the answer. I want to get you to start questioning these red flags on your own.

Your first instinct is to believe your husband. That's very typical of betrayed spouses. Don't feel bad that you didn't immediately want to call up a PI and have him followed. You were not in that frame of mind back then. But you are armed with knowledge now, given to you from people who have been in your shoes.

Do you see that you are asking him to display an emotion that he doesn't feel? HE'S not upset with her. YOU are. Think about that.

What new info have you come up with? I didn't see it. Do you mean that you haven't found anything on his phone or email? That just means you haven't found anything - it doesn't mean nothing is there. You'll need to do some serious snooping to determine that.

And he didn't.

Yes. This is what we're seeing. We don't need an illustration. If this was an unexpected invasion on her part, I would expect him, at minimum, to remove her hand from him leg and then talk to you about it after the dinner, telling you what happened and then removing them from your lives after telling her husband why.

But, again, he didn't do that.

Now you're here, trying to figure out how to quiet that voice in your head that is telling you that there is a problem. Please don't be upset with us for agreeing with that little voice and not telling you what you would like to hear. We're telling you what it is you need to do now.

You wrote this in your first post. You DO know what to think, your gut instinct is screaming at you loud and clear. You are trying very hard to ignore it and sweep this under the rug, and I can tell you from experience, it won't work.

You should NOT get over it. If you just 'get over it' here is what will happen...1) The affair will never end. Do not fool yourself into believing it ever did, when they still see each other (and talk on the phone?) regularly. 2) Your marriage will never recover. 3) This affair or future ones will follow.

We are working that out. We won't be going to the birthday party in a couple of weeks. I guessi could ask him to not play ball for now and find a different league to play in. It's not like I can tell her to stop going to the games.

The photo and number have been removed. We did that together.

nicole, what Dr Harley says about affairs is that once the EN of intimate conversation are met, if enough lovebank deposits are made to trigger romantic feelings, the needs of affection and SF become irresistible.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8119_friends.html

They were holding hands (being affectionate) because they are/were having a romantic relationship. It really is that simple.

I understand trying to twist your head around any kind of explanation your WS is going to give you to make sense of something that you don't want to believe. This is because you love your BS -- we are not emotionally invested & we see the same stories all the time on these boards. We are not going to be swayed so easily by these fantastical stories the WS come up when they are caught doing X, Y and Z.

He has already admitted an EA. The fact that he continues to gaslight you about the handholding under the table -- nicole, this tells me one thing and one thing only...that he is still withholding lots of information from you.

Would he be willing to take a poly? I would never have suggested you demand this until you have had a chance to quietly snoop but because you refuse to do this step and it sounds like you are discussing everything you are reading here with him it may be a good way to test and see for yourself if he is finally being honest with you. Because I doubt he will be willing to take one.

Everything I have said here has been said to him over the past year. He doesn't know about this forum. How do I track calls on a company phone???

I think everyone here is sidestepping a very important fact. She needs to tell the OW husband. if I recall correctly the husband is his best friend. He needs to know about this so there are four eyes on the situation.

He knows... He said it sno big deal... They were drinking.... And that I overreacted...

Let me tell you a brief story Nichole. I was married to a man and I got a phone call from a friend of mine telling me that she had information that my then husband had had an affair with my cousin. At the time of the affair my cousin was 19 and my husband was 37. I confronted them and they both denied it. I had no proof and I just accepted that LIE except I couldn't really ever accept it. For SEVEN years I would lie in bed at night and think of all sorts of ways to 'get the truth'.

Then I found MB. I was working on my marriage and as the months went by and I revealed various incidents and conversations someone here said, 'I think he is having an affair. Put a keylogger on his computer.' I remember thinking, 'no way is he having an affair!' We had been married for 25 years at that point and he had a lot to lose....I thought he was too smart to risk it all for an affair. But I listend to these people and within 24 hours I discovered via a keylogger that he was indeed having an affair with a 24 year old co-worker ( by this time he was 45). Because I had been on the boards for a couple years I had learned a lot about snooping and not tipping my hand. So I convinced him I had found out about the affair by hiring a PI and I left the keylogger on his computer even after I kicked him out of our home.

And then the miracle happened. The key logger revealed that he was communicating with that same cousin of mine from 7 years earlier. And their communications confirmed without a doubt that they had had an affair seven years earlier.

All during those 7 years I would sometimes mention it...ask him about it again. He would always tell me my friend (the one who told me about it) was a liar and jealous and trying to 'bring him down'. And later when I saw that my cousin was his FB friend and I told him I didn't like it he called me jealous and controlling and refused to take her off for weeks. Seven years of my life living with a liar.

My story is long and so I will stop. I told you that part because you can't get it out of your mind....and I know how that feels. I never thought in a million years I would ever get the truth. It is a horrible way to live. I strongly encourage you to listen to the people here and do what they suggest so that you have the best shot of getting the truth.

Nicole,

You were so hung up on the "pretty" part that you missed the entire point of my post. I am sorry if I insulted you with that. I was honestly just trying to use your words to do a play on words. I know that you are not vain. If you were vain, you most likely would not be on this site. I am sorry if I offended you but I am not sorry for trying to get you to see the BIG picture.

You are full of excuses for your H. Even to the point that you are gas-lighting yourself. Please correct me I read it wrong but it sounded like you were excusing your H's actions at the table. No matter what he says, it takes two to tango and he was not pushing her hand away. In addition, if he gets mad at her, he has to get mad at himself.

Your post are still full of you feeling insecure and uncertain about your H and his true intentions. If he is taking all of the blame, what changes is he making to show you that there is no way that he can have an affair? What is he doing to make you feel safe? What are you requesting to help make you feel safe?

A person can feel bad about their actions. My drug addict brother felt horrible for stealing my dads "priceless" baseball cards and selling them for drugs. Did that make him stop doing the drugs or stop stealing from my parents? NO!!!

A felt horrible and guilty every time I came home from work during my A. I would look into my H's eyes and feel so horrible. I would be so super nice to him at times to deal with my own guilt. Did that stop me from leaving in the morning and continuing my Affair? NO!!!

For so long my H and I had a hard time being honest with each other and requesting each things from each other. Just recently we really started telling one another when we did not feel "safe". I was amazed at some of the little things that I was doing to make my H feel unsafe that I did not even realize.

He said he was always afraid to tell me because he was afraid to put too many restrictions and limits on me, that it would push me away. Only it has done the opposite. I love it that he now shared his insecurities with me so I can 1. comfortable share mine with him 2. make the changes I need to to make him feel safe in our marriage.

See Nicole, my marriage was like yours. On the outside we were the perfect couple. Our friends were envious of us. In fact, when some of our close friends found out about the affair, they cried because they honestly felt that if we could not make it no one could. I am not trying to sound cocky or vain at all. I am just trying to show you that whats pretty on the outside might be dying on the inside.

Please be honest with yourself and if you have any doubt, step it up. Hold your H accountable for his actions. Don't just allow him to feel bad, make him change his ways and show you that he is willing to completely change himself and your marriage.

Nicole,

Please, I implore you to listen to the sage advice you're getting from very veteran posters.

In just over 24 hours, there have been 69 replies to your original post. That number of posts SHOULD tell you that you need to listen.

You believe that there's no ongoing Tom Foolery going on with your husband and best friends wife. The ONLY way you're going to be able to put your mind at ease is to verify what your husband says is true. As our 40th POTUS so aptly said, trust but verify. You, madam, seem to have the trust part down. What you haven't done is verify. Therefore, your only course of action is to VERIFY!

The veteran posters who've taken the time to post on YOUR thread, at YOUR request, are doing so because they've been there. Please, please, PLEASE take their advice.

You're getting to the point that the vets will no longer have any interest in your situation; and that would be a terrible thing for you. Their advice, straight from the teachings of Dr. Harley, comes from their own experience.

I see that you're still online, so please listen to, and then ACT on, what they're saying.

I don't think you can.

But what you can do is install a GPS/VAR in his car. I would also install a keylogger on the home computer/s.

It is very easy and affordable to do this. My younger sister got this done all w/n one day after I sent her here (she also strongly believed there was no affair....w/n one week she had the proof)

Getting proof that he is having an affair or not getting proof....either way you are going to come out of the undesired standstill you are in now.

A couple other thoughts

1. You said your H does not know about this site...KEEP IT THAT WAY until you have more proof one way or the other.

2. The OW's Husband sounds like he is on the same Denial boat that you are on. Of course he doesn't want to believe it or think it is anything more that what it is...sound familiar?

3. However, if you do happen to get more proof (and we will be here for you every step of the way no matter what you find out) he needs to know!!!

Hey nicole. I have read your whole thread and just wanted to offer my support to you as well. One thing you will realize as you read around here for a while is that most BS's such as yourself, usually begin by "not liking" the responses here. You will very quickly begin to see the truth in the responses. Just give it time. These veterans have been at it a LONG time. They know what they are doing. They may not have every detail correct, but you just got here. Give it a little time, OK? Please start to be aware at exactly what they are saying that is irking you. It is angering you, most likely, because there is some truth to it. You H may or may not be in a current affair. That is WHY you need to snoop. You HAVE to know exactly what you ARE dealing with, so you can figure out a way to proceed from there. He most likely will only admit what he knows you know, only after the gaslighting that you didn't know what you thought you knew, didn't work!! IF he is involved with this other woman, he ISN'T going to tell you!!! He is going to hide it better. If there is any question, you won't be able to move forward. Might as well verify! Then you will know which path to take. I hope he isn't having an affair, but like they say here, "Hope is not a plan." Do you understand what how that applies to you? You don't want to rebuild on lies and deceipt b/c you didn't verify. Don't be fearful of finding out the truth. You WILL survive it and deal with it. We will all be here for you to support you. By the time you end up here, you have been in denial, lying to yourself, sticking your head in the sand, avoiding everything for so long, that it really is VERY DIFFICULT to hear and face the truth. They won't let you stay in denial here. They get straight to the point and tell you how it is. After you get to where you see and can face the truth, you WILL appreciate that these anonymous people cared enough to help you. Stick around honey, you will be glad you did.

It is interesting in your first statement you say "I am not crazy". That is how I felt during the entire I was being gaslighted by my WS. It brings much self doubt to oneself. Almost 2 years from DD for myself.....I still have occasionally have doubts on things. I was extremely gaslighted.

You really need to snoop. I found my WS's affair phone 9 months after DD.....keylogger found lots of things......get a VAR......your WH is offering up his phone as "proof that nothing is going on" because he already has an affair phone. He is deleting history on the computer so there is "no evidence". Affairs go underground very quick. Keep looking, be stealth.

Listen to the vets, they are trying to help you just like they have helped me and countless others.

If you haven't already done so, click on the "Operation Investigate" section of this forum and see what snooping techniques you can implement. (I understand you may be limited because he uses work devices.) Be careful not to act differently around your husband as you dig for information. From now on, you are James Bond.

Please read.

VAR
GPS Units