LL, I'm going to weigh in on LH's position on this. Given their history, supplemented by the principle that the BS sets the course and speed of the recovery, the initiative of ANY physical contact for the time being lies with her.

If she takes the step, indicating her openness to accepting the EN of affection from LH, that would be a positive sign. If he were to grab her hand, almost certainly she'd view this as his trying to decide what she needs, when, how much, and how often.

As a BS, I would have WANTED my WH to grab my hand. I would have been too resentful and emotionally torn to take that step. I would have seen taking his hand as a sign of weakness and vulnerability, at a time when that was the last thing I wanted to portray. I would want him to show me that affection, and to show me that HE was vulnerable. Just sayin.

I think it can go both ways here. LH could have always said, 'Can I hold your hand? Or are you not comfortable with that?'

I will do that today. I did put my hand on her last night while we were sleeping. She said it was too hot, but she said we could hold hands while we slept. This made me feel good. She has always said my body temperature is like a hot water bottle which is good in the winter but not in the summer.

She did give me a goodbye hug this morning when she left for work and it made me feel very happy. I feel I am usually the one that initiates affection so it is huge to me that she gave a goodbye hug. We both have always given and initiated goodbye hugs but things have been very cold since last week. This is a positive mark for us this week.

This is my fault by not putting her first and not treating her like I did when we were first married. I really like this dating thing and find myself not being able to hold back positive thoughts of things to do and say to her. It is getting easier to say �How would you feel about �.� Practice, Practice, Practice.

We will let time be the litmus test that I am consistent with words and actions. My goal right now is to finish the Love Busters book and an Anger Management book this week before the AngerBusters 101 book gets here in the mail. I read strictly for information and not pleasure. I have a short attention span while reading. I have read one book of about 135 pages since 1985. I like to read articles about technical problems and how to fix them. Love Busters is holding my attention and the more I read the more it is holding my attention.

Thanks for your advice and I will be a hand holding machine from this day forward.

Or, "I'd really like to hold your hand. How would you feel about that?"

My thought were in alignment with NeverGuessed. I can also see and understand the viewpoint of what unwritten posted and I am good with doing that too. I will do either as long as I can hold her hand and she is happy about it.

Our 18 year anniversary is next week on Valentine�s Day. What would be any MB�s advice because I would like to start planning? I am open to any suggestions as to that night or even making it a weekend getaway. I also would like to be asking SM about options and �How she would fell about � � because she does not usually like surprises.

Did you tell her it's a test? That she only has an allotted time to complete it in?..... I mean come on, doesn't she understand how important you are?


She requested that you post what's going on with you, questions and isssues you are struggling with,,,,, as GENERAL things to discuss with those on the forum! I don't believe she ever meant for you to just post questions to her. You post so others can give you feedback and insight into everything that is going on.



Although this may seem like a good idea to you, it's not!

You need to give 100% of yourself in this marriage.

She decides what she gives! Your expectations of her should be ZERO! Anything she can give you is a blessing, and needs treated as such.

You go on no matter what.....

So she had a bad moment..... and now..... you're remembering something that happened in a tiff and doesn't really matter in the scheme of things.


On a different note;

You were born a sinner, just like the rest of us.
That would actually make your wife correct. No one had to teach you to lie, you just tried it and discovered you could. You were born with that nature.

As a Christian, you have the choice to resurrect the old man/liar and enjoy the sinful lusts of the flesh (already been doing this, not been going well either) or put him down and start feeding the new creation God has made you. I recommend the later....

IMO,

You need to use the programs suggestions here.

You do this by saying;

I would love it if ________________ !

Fill in the blank.

I would love it if we held hands.

Then wait for her response. Her response is up to HER!

But you need to ask appropriately.

Saying out loud "I'm leaving it up to you" just takes away anything good and sounds very un-romantic. Does that make sense?

You'll get it, it just takes time and practice.

We held hands while we slept last night. Each time I woke up she was holding my hand and it was very romantic. We have our date night tonight and tomorrow morning.

We have a POJA that I write the letters to her and save them as a file. I will post questions and issues I am struggling with so others can give me feedback and insight. We will agree with what goes on the forum because she says I listen to the feedback on the forum. I am going to check again to make sure I have the POJA correct before I do anything.

The letters to her help because she can answer them and respond. She did answer the questions and we went over them last night. We can go over them and we answer questions quickly and hopefully have more UA time.

It is very helpful for me to go back and read the post. In the earlier post, MelodyLane posted MB focuses on creating romantic love in your marriage. I have not been doing this for the past 6 years like I did the previous 14 years we were together and it has had a domino effect. The thing is to take your advice with the MB principles when you have a bad moment you go on practicing the principles. Thanks again for your input and I am back to do my reading.

Tell her how wonderful you felt that every time you woke up she was holding your hand...

We have been getting along well. She holds my hand while we are going down the road. She also has been snuggling and holding my hand when we sleep. She has been showing signs of open affection and initiating first contact.

I have finished Love Busters and now am reading Surviving an affair. We planned our UA time and family time for the next week. We have been having major problems with our children being disrespectful and disobeying. I have a huge problem with it but haven�t had an angry outburst. StrongerMe and I have been sitting down and talking about the problems with the kids and I feel we are having unified discussions. I feel we have had our best flow of a positive relationship. When we have something negative, I try to just look at it as a speed bump and we keep moving forward.

She brought up wanting more details about the OW late into the night one night this week. I answered her questions to the best of my ability but told her at the end that I didn�t see anything positive come out of it. I feel it just makes her mind think of more questions that I can�t answer. I have given every detail I can think of. I have tried to think, �Is there anything the OW could say that StrongerMe and I haven�t talked about?� I answer her questions but I know it doesn�t make love bank deposits for me. I do it because I am hoping it helps in her healing. I feel it contributes to more pain and more questions that torment her.

I am happy anytime I get to spend with StrongerMe. She talked to me about a movie �The Butterfly Effect� that she had seen part of but not all. This type of conversations just makes me melt when I am talking to her. I want to hear her thoughts and am holding on to hear the next word. I will even interrupt because I was saying what I thought would happen. I Love talking to her about things like that. I love spending time with her and talking to her. I am hoping the weather is about to warm up so we can start doing some RC time outside. I am having hope that we are finally starting recovery and have positive thoughts about us about 98% of the time. Any other negative thoughts come from our children�s behavior, job, ect.. As far as StrongerMe and I, I feel very positive.

Goals:

I need to get a job that supports our marriage.
Continue 15+ hours of UA time a week. Document it readjust it for improvements.

Continue 15+ hours of family time a week. Document it readjust it for improvements.

Stay united on discipline with our children.

Do not argue. Do not argue. Do not argue.

Never say another harsh word to StrongerMe or the girls.

Read, Read and Read.

I have more but I am tired of typing on the computer and I am going to read.

Be more patient with them. They were betrayed by you and need time to learn too.

This rebuilding with them will require years of effort as well as no lovebusters toward them as well.


"LOTS" of D.J.'s in there my friend.

Your job is to answer the questions, not to decide what she can or cannot handle. She's a grown woman capable of handling more than you. You are just afraid when these questions come up again. Fear not! The truth will set you free.

Remember - Your job is to love her, care for her, cherish her and honor her.


Otherwise, it sounds like you're making progress.

Stay the course, eyes forward!



[/quote]

LH, this is a very encouraging post.

Have you read other people's threads on here? Other BWs?

One thing about your DDs is that you should understand that we are often telling BSs that WSs don't make good parents, because while they are wayward, they really don't. There are obviously some things that you are going to make up for with them, as well as SM. As long as you stay the course, and keep up, they will see that your changes can be for real, and they can start to trust in you again.

If you have just finished LB, can you look back at the post you made and see what HPB means?

I have had very good days with DDs the past 4 to 5 days. I have learned to just keep quiet when they get home and let them decompress from their school day. When I am quiet they will start talking nonstop about their day and when SM gets home they will tell her again at supper when we eat. I have also talked with both of them before bed several nights this week with them welcoming it.

SM and I have had some love busters come up this week and we seem to work through them. In the past, it would have turned into a big argument but now they seem to be speed bumps that we are rolling through.

I went to take a test today for potential employment and had some IB today. I stopped by two motorcycle shops to see their prices on their used bikes to make sure our price is still lower than what is out there. I didn�t tell SM because I didn�t want her to get upset about hearing anything about a motorcycle. We have talked and I apologized for not communicating. The goal from here forward is to tell her everything about my day. Even if I think it will hurt her feelings or bore her, she will be happier knowing everything and knowing that I am communicating everything to her. I am still a work in progress.

While I was trying to post last night, SM brought me a text that my dad�s brother had been found in a coma and he was brain dead. They have him in hospice and they are just waiting. This sent me into a tail spin because I haven�t seen my dad since before Christmas. I wanted to see him in person. I wanted to hug him and make sure he was ok. My dad is one of twelve children. This was his closest brother. When I was growing up we were always with his brother�s family on the weekends. I also had the fear this could be a call about my dad and how I would feel if I had not had any contact since Christmas. How I would feel as a son if something would have happened to him and his last two months of his life I hadn�t had any contact with him.

SM and I talked about all of the emotions going through my mind. Her first response when she got the text was for me to call my dad. I did not want to do anything that would make her feel I wasn�t supporting her or putting her first by having contact with my dad. SM has not had a problem with my dad. I called my dad and I could tell he was very upset about his brother. The more he talked the better he seemed to get. I felt so much better talking to him. SM and I talked after the phone conversation and I feel we were on the same page.

To answer the questions of Scotland:

Have you read other people�s threads on here? Other BW�s?

I do. I need to read more. When I sit down for just a few minutes to read it will turn into 45 or an hour. My main focus has been to read the MB�s books. After Love Busters, I finished Surviving an Affair. I am now reading AngerBusters 101.

By reading Love Buster, it has given me the big picture of everything. When I first started reading it I was highlighting everything I thought SM should be paying attention to. The more I read I highlighted any key points that I thought I needed to pay attention to that would help with recovery and make our marriage better.

HPB�s posts have always had clarity to them for me. One of my problems is it makes sense and the book makes sense but it is hard to break the habits that have been happening for years. I feel my biggest are Independent Behaviors and Disrespectful judgments.

It is hard for me to stay the course and stick to the MB�s principles during a Love Buster because of the years of bad habits. The emotions are so high and cause everything to spin for me. I have to keep telling myself. Do not speak, listen, think, do not speak, do not speak, read, think, listen, do not speak, do not speak.

Is there anything that has �101 of the most disrespectful judgments?� I want to read more examples of this.

One of my goals is to go back through and reread the MB�s books to make sure I am burning the principles into my brain.

It is hard for me to stay the course and stick to the MB�s principles during a Love Buster because of the years of bad habits. The emotions are so high and cause everything to spin for me. I have to keep telling myself. Do not speak, listen, think, do not speak, do not speak, read, think, listen, do not speak, do not speak.

Hi Longhaul,

I find it useful to say to myself when I am on the verge of an angry outburst or disrepsectful judgement......."Do I really want to do this?" Once you get the hang of that expand to "Do I really want to do this or do I want to be happy?"

It kind of tricks the part of you that feels justified in these bad behaviors.....because you are telling yourself you can always do it later. If you learn to postpone soon you will not want to do it anyway because you will see you get better results being kind and respectful.

Janna

Great advice, Janna!

My H still struggles with controlling his IB, which was the cause of terrible problems between us. He understands at an intellectual level that he should consider me before he does what he wants but it hasn't translated to the emotional reflexive level yet, so he keeps slipping up. He catches himself sometimes - sometimes even before he opens his mouth - but at other times, he is again so focused on what he wants that he returns to being argumentative, selfish, and disrespectful.

This drains my LB big time. And my H has become horrified by his reflexive selfish self, he hates it, but he keeps stumbling. We're a work in progress, like you and SM.

However, my H and I take heart from Dr. Harley's saying that "thoughts follow actions". My H was impressed by the story of the man who didn't meet his wife's need for affection and so Dr. H made him follow a strict list - kiss his W when he woke up, say goodbye and give a kiss before leaving for work, call at smoko time to say "I love you" etc. It was unnatural at first for the man but after a while he did it so routinely that it seemed so strange to him when he didn't do one of the things on the list that he would go out of his way to do it.

So, maybe it just takes some rewiring and laying down new habits so that the intellectual knowledge becomes part of your emotional self.

� think that because the will is there on my H's part (and I think on yours too), it'll work out in the long run. It's hard work to rewire yourself but the alternative is so unpleasant and costly that my H is determined to succeed.

I can see that same determination in you.

We have been having a good three weeks in a row. Just finished reading Angry Busting 101 and SM says that I haven�t had and AO in the past several weeks. I have had a tone with my children but not her. I have never had road rage or getting angry when there is a long line. In years of teaching, I have only lost my temper one time when a student told me I didn�t know what I was talking about when he was trying to take apart a two piece rim with other students around. I made him get them out of the class immediately and then talked to him about what he didn�t know about because a guy about 2 years younger than me had his head taken clean off of his shoulders by one of those rims. We call them widow makers. We went over the safety precautions and he was to work on them at his house. We talked about it the next day and he apologized for not following safety in the lab. I know the main goal is not to have AO toward my family and to treat them better that I treat any stranger or friend.

I am still having trouble waiting on 3 females when it is time to go. I shoot basketball in the driveway, shoot squirrels in the woods and work on solving the rubik�s cube until everybody makes it to the vehicle. This seems to be working.

We have decided to let SM to handle the discipline and for me to just keep depositing love units in the girls banks. Let them have as many positive times as they can until things look like they are getting better.

DD11 told SM to shut up yesterday. I had a real hard time with this one. SM and I have been together for 20 years. I have never told her or my children to ever shut up. I just kept quiet and let SM handle it. When it was bedtime, I just laid with the girls until they feel asleep. My goal and prayer is to never say another harsh word to my wife or children again. One day at a time.

I feel the happiest I have felt in a while. SM and I are having long talks and we have our date night tonight. We had our recreational activity on Saturday. DD11 wasn�t feeling well and it came up that we may not make the time. I pulled out our plan and scheduled UA and Family time that we agreed to on Sunday. We went and had the activity and everybody was smiling and talking at the end. It was a good time.

SM is holding my hand while we sleep and we are planning to have a family vacation starting this Friday that will last until next Saturday. SM and the girls are very excited about the trip and it seems to be picking everybody up to a very positive attitude.

As I go back and read I just want to say �Thanks� to everyone for supporting SM. I do not know enough to know where I am in this recovery. If I am still in the fog, if I still have a wayward mentality, if I am 15% or 5% through this. It took a long time for our marriage to be where it is and it will take time to break bad habits. Through reading, listening, talking, praying and practicing MB principles I have hope we will be there. I am just trying to support SM in recovery and stay on the MB�s path one day at a time.

We had a good vacation last week. We had two arguments over DD11 behavior. I was wrong and am letting SM handle DD11. Ordered His Needs, Her Needs for Parent and I am trying to read that now. Have had a good week with the daughters and they have been very sweet.

We have had strep, flu, and sinus infections in the past two weeks here. We haven�t been doing well on UA time or RC time because of sicknesses. Trying to get everyone feeling better and reorganizing our UA time and RC time.

I had a friend whose mother when to the doctor for shingles and they checked her out and sent her home on Monday. Her son found her dead on Tuesday. My uncle passed away. This was my dad�s brother who had a tumor on his pituitary gland. My dad has a tumor on his pituitary gland. These things start me spiraling and really wanting to have contact with my parents.

Relationship between both sets of parents:

SM�s parents:
They live about 5 miles away from us.
SM talks to her mom on the phone on a regular basis on her way to work and she will see her maybe 4 times a year.
SM hates her dad and never talks to him. He had a head injury in 1980 when SM and I were in the same 6th grade class together. He was never a good father before and has never been good since. SM�s mother will always take care of her father and will choose him over any of her children. Her mother is a good person but will have arguments with SM over stupid stuff and turns on her.
I say hey to her and hug her the 4 times a year that I see her. She sees our kids only about 4 times a year.
I have helped her mother more than any family member or friend through the years with fixing her house, selling her house, finding her a new house, keeping her out of jail ect� She will turn and has turned on me time and time and time again when I get through helping her.

I feel the same if not worse about SM�s father as she does.

My parents:

They live about 8 miles away from us.
I would talk to my mother every day. I would see my parents about twice a week. They would pick up our children from school 2 to 3 times a week just because they wanted to see them. They were going to move 5 hrs. away and had purchased property to build a retirement spot near the beach. They cancelled everything because our children didn�t want them to move. Our children are their only grandchildren. They are their life.
They haven�t seen our children since before Christmas.
SM is ok with my father. She supported and encouraged me to call him when they found my uncle ( his closest brother)
My mother has been communicated to on every level about our recovery. I am in agreement with SM that she hasn�t supported our recovery. She has not kept quiet and will voice her opinion.
I want to write my mother a letter about her not supporting our marriage and expectations that we have of her. I want SM to look over the letter and get any additions or deletions to the letter. Make sure SM is 100 % comfortable with the letter.

My fear is that my father will take my mothers side even if he knows she is wrong and then I won�t have a relationship with him.

I would be fine with talking with my parents like SM does with her mother. I would like to have contact with my parents. I want SM to feel like I am supporting her and our marriage.

What advice do you all have on anything and also what to put into the letter?