Yes. I wanted him to understand. That is what my LB is to him. I keep thinking if I say it right ( which is the long email) and lay it out how I saw it go down and how I, as a reasonable person who is like most reasonable people, any of us would feel the pain and anger. And as time goes on and on, a reasonable person would become more upset, the damage accrues and I really want him to understand that I am not intentionally and without consideration, "attacking" him. I am simply so upset and reaching higher levels of upset when I am trying to convince him my reaction is one of normal pain in response to traumatic events.

See,I am not having AO all over the place. Is is confined to the discussion from me to him trying to make him see. And he will listen a bit, then invalidate, shut me down.

So HIS argument back is NEVER TRY TO HAVE THIS DISCUSSION because NOTHING ever comes of it, nothing is resolved, to him it is a VENT session and I am deliberately ON PURPOSE, he says making my own self upset. And then how am I helping.

And I sit there, agonized and near speechless because he just shut me down.

I am better at walking away. But if he hangs up on me, and disappears without a word, just that bit of disrespect is like a pin into a balloon. I have asked him NOT to leave like that, just say he needs to go and I respect him on it. I DO.

Sorry I guess I am venting. Just wanted to say basically yes am trying to convince him. I am so sad and tired because these are nearly the worst experiences of my life and it hurts me so much to be told I make them happen to me.

Atlanta, this is so abusive it blows my mind. He is basically just telling you to shut up and say nothing about his affairs and despicable behaviour. Please get out as you have been advised. I couldn't imagine living under those conditions. If he was truly willing to recover the marriage he would be open and honest with you about your past.

I agree. I hope she takes care of herself.

You need to quit debating with him, quit trying to prove it to him, quit trying to get your point across to him, quit trying to get him to understand, quit trying to get him to feel what you are feeling, quit trying to persuade him.

There is only one message to get across, and you MUST get it across with NO WORDS AT ALL:

"I will not live in a marriage where I am abused and neglected."

I'm sure you can figure out how to get this message across with no words.

Atlanta, this is hard, but you need to be honest with yourself so you can strip away an excuse for not taking action.

You did not "get sucked in." Tentacles did not grab you and make you stay. There was no quicksand. There was no giant vacuum.

You chose to have a conversation that you should not have.

Stop talking to him. About anything. Ever.


We already know this. Dr. Harley explains many times on his show that people who live with an abuser almost always become abusive themselves. You have lived under horrendous abuse and it is not at all surprising that you are reacting with angry outbursts.

And it is completely, totally irrelevant. There is no sense sitting around analyzing the causes, etc. "Talk therapy" where you have "breakthroughs" and "learn things about yourself" for years on end is USELESS and keeps people mired in the problems for DECADES and makes therapists RICH. There is nothing to be gained from analyzing your angry outbursts, Atlanta.

The solution is to follow Dr. Harley's plan, and his advice to women in your situation is absolutely clear and unwavering: get away and don't let this man talk to you until he is completely changed, if ever. He will not change by conversation with you, and conversation with you is DAMAGING TO YOU, so stop participating in it!

RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, Markos. I agree. If you put yourself into a dangerous situation, you will likely get hurt. Best not to go there when the danger is evident.


I thought it was relatively safe yesterday. As it turned out, it was not.

I am back to Plan B.

I am very glad to hear that, Atlanta.

I can't remember: do you have an IM?

Have you changed your phone number and email addresses?

Have you sent him a plan B letter?

Have you got a plan in place for the event that he turns up at your door unannounced?

At this point, this man will only deliver you poison if you let him in. All you can do now is prevent him from delivering his poison and show him (via your plan B letter) what he must do to have a safe and loving marriage with you.

I have an IM.
I sent a Plan B letter.

My only plan in the event of him showing up is to ignore him. The locks are changed, he has no key. I doubt he will attempt to break in. I will call the police if he does.

I created a throw away email address a couple of days ago that I intended to use to communicate with him. At this point it is thrown away.

I was debating re-sending the Plan B letter again. Should I re-send it to reinforce my position, or should I simply drop off the face of the earth?

I would have intermediary let him know you are going back to your usage of an intermediary.

That is self explanatory and the original plan B letter either remembered or not.

Not your problem right now.

While I am on plan B, I have some questions.

A really big question I have is if he comes back with the correct outlook for reconciliation, is it better to let the affair drop in terms of in depth discussion and simply focus on the present and MB concepts for a better marriage?

The state of mind I am in I keep having conversations in my head with him, which are basically hurt and angry monologues over how much hurt I feel, how afraid I am of repeat offenses and rages at him for hurting and scaring me so much.

I keep thinking of him coming back, and starting reconciliation and then BAM! out of the blue AGAIN he does something terrible, or I get a panicked and trigger and it's so bad I can't control it and I freak out on him.

I am scared to death of losing control of myself.

The reason you have these angry outbursts is because you are constantly triggered by PRESENT behavior. For example, he is still secretive and does things that remind you of his affairs.

Another problem you are facing is his OC. That will be a lifelong reminder of his affair.

My suggestion is to stay in a very dark Plan B and don't think about it for now. After a few months your judgement will be much more clear about the future of your marriage.

Do your best to focus on yourself and leave your marriage on the sidelines for now. Can you do that?

As a general principle, YES. This is conditioned on a couple of things. Once you have all the FACTS about his affair and he has affair proofed the marriage to your satisfaction, the affairs should not be brought up. ALL of the focus should then be aimed to the MB program and creating your new marriage.

Yes, I will work on focusing on myself. It's really hard to redirect, but I totally understand where you are coming from on that.

Atlanta, did we discuss anti-depressants with you? Are you on ADs? Do you exercise?

You are a very intelligent person and right now you need your intelligence to overrule your emotions and take care of yourself. Like Winston Churchill said, "when you are going through hell, keep going!"

If you will just religiously stick to Plan B for a few weeks, you will notice a remarkable change in your mental outlook. I promise you!!

I was on anti anxiety meds. Zoloft, which is also used to treat depression.

I went off of it and rapidly had a painful increase in feeling bad, so I went back on it a week or so ago. It's helping. Some days I feel like an emotional refugee. This has been absolutely the most gutting experience of my life.When I was a teenager I was burned quite badly on one arm. It took months to heal. Honestly the pain of that has been less than the pain of this.

Stick to Plan B for a few months, as Mel suggested, and you are going to be feeling better soon. Plan B is for your relief.

We understand completely!! Dr Harley equates the pain of an affair to rape, physical assault or the death of a child......and he is a psycholgist. And you have been through TWO affairs and an OC.

Please ask your doctor's advice before stopping medicines cold turkey. There can be extreme side effects when you do this.

Hang in there, Atlanta. I really identify with your situation, not because I am victim of infidelity myself, but because my beloved mother was. My father behaved to my mother like your WH did to you: he treated her with utter disregard, numerous infidelities, an OC, prostitutes, arrogant behavior, completely entitled and full of himself, disdainful etc. He was charming and attractive and seemed successful, but he was actually a selfish cruel fool who thought only about himself.

My mum fell apart, bit by bit. She became an exploding kettle of uncontrollable AOs, and he got colder and colder and more contemptuous. I was the trapped witness to her complete breakdown when I was 17. He told me that he could not handle her AOs anymore, that's why he was leaving her. He was full of self-pity and self-righteousness.

That was 6 months after she had open-heart surgery. What a nice guy.

She eventually crawled away and was never the same again. I realise now that she had post-traumatic stress that was never dealt with.

Now YOU, Atlanta. you are lucky. You have MB. My mum thought it was all her fault.

I know you talk to your WH in your head, you want him to understand how unfair he is. He will not listen. He has not listened for a long time, if ever. It's not your fault, Atlanta.

Listen to ML and the others: they know what they are talking about. Plan B will give you peace.