I heard that Neverguessed guy can be quite the ruffian!

The following is from one of Dr. Harley's articles:

"One of the first things I do when couples see me for counseling is to evaluate them for drug and alcohol addiction. If I feel that either is addicted at the time, I refer the addicted spouse to a treatment program. The Love Buster, drug or alcohol addiction, will prevent them from resolving their marital conflicts because it controls them. It must be eliminated before marital therapy has any hope of being successful.

My job as a marriage counselor begins after successful treatment and sobriety. If the addicted spouse refuses treatment, then I direct the unaddicted spouse to Alanon or some other support group for spouses of alcoholics. Sometimes, I encourage an intervention.

That's what I learned to do after discovering that an alcoholic is so much in love with alcohol, that while in the state of addiction, there is no way for them to consider their spouse's feelings whenever they make decisions, a necessary condition for a great marriage. Alcohol always comes first, even when it is at the spouse's expense.

But even after sobriety is achieved, it's an uphill battle for the couple. The spouses of alcoholics are usually so relieved when treatment is successful that they often think their marital troubles are over. It's true, addiction makes it impossible to resolve marital conflicts. But sobriety itself doesn't solve them -- it simply makes them solvable."

Hi Never;

In today's radio program (July 1st), Dr. Harley addressed the issue of friends of the opposite sex... When are they a problem?, etc. ... Interesting listening.

And if you aren't already in the habit, tuning into the show daily is a good practice to get into.

NeverSayNever13:

The issue of opposite-sex friendships comes up fairly often. Since it has come up in your thread, and there has been some confusion, I thought it would be a good idea to give you my thoughts on it directly. As for the issue that you initally raised, my wife, Joyce and I would be happy to help you personally with this problem if you were to write her with your situation at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

As you probably already know, most affairs begin with opposite-sex friendships which causes all of us at MB to be concerned about them. Whenever someone of the opposite sex (or even of the same sex in some situations) makes enough Love Bank deposits to breach the romantic love threshold in someone else's Love Bank, romantic love is triggered in that person which makes that person of the opposite sex irresistible. That irresistibility, in turn, makes the person in love somewhat irrational regarding the wisdom of the relationship -- they want the other person at all costs.

We've seen this pattern so many times that it's tempting to recommend elimination of all relationships with those of the opposite sex because of the damage that affairs cause.

But I'm not in favor of eliminating all relationships of the opposite sex -- only those that are capable of making enough Love Bank deposits to trigger romantic love. So what do those relationships look like?

These dangerous relationships are usually private, personal, and bilateral. They're private in the sense that conversation is generally one-on-one, and sometimes kept secret because the spouse would be threatened in some way by it if it were done with the spouse present. It's personal in the sense that personal information is revealed, especially problems faced in life, along with a willingness to help if needed. And it's bilateral in the sense that both people share information with each other and prove that they have what it takes to help each other.

Technically, all friendships make Love Bank deposits. But when an opposite-sex friendship meets the most important emotional needs of affection (expressions of care and concern), intimate conversation (conversation about personal problems being faced, and topics of personal interest), recreational companionship (spending time together enjoying common recreational activities), honesty and openness (revealing personal feelings, past history, present activities, and plans for the future), and admiration (expressions of respect, value, and appreciation), romantic love is sure to follow.

It goes without saying that if one spouse has a friend that threatens the other spouse in any way, whether it's male or female, the Policy of Joint Agreement dictates that the relationship should modified or ended completely depending on what can be enthusiastically agreed upon by the spouses. I hope that recommendation is understood and supported by those on the Forum.

But I take it one step further to warn couples that any friendship with someone of the opposite sex should be carefully evaluated because of the risks involved. Even if a couple is in enthusiastic agreement, I recommend that a friendship with someone who was a former lover should be ended. Also, a friendship with someone who you feel might actually make enough deposits to breach the romantic love threshold should be ended. Don't take unnecessary chances.

But what about someone who you've known since childhood, and there's no private (secret) conversation, no personal revelations, and is not bilaterally caring. None of your most important emotional needs are being met by this person. Should these relationships be discouraged, especially when spouses are in enthusiastic agreement about them?

Joyce and I have many of these relationships, and they've never come anywhere close to getting us into trouble over the 50 years of our marriage. Joyce is my best friend, and I'm her's. Our deepest affection is reserved for each other. Our most personal feelings, history, present activities, and plans for the future are revealed only to each other. Our favorite recreational activities are spent with each other. We are the presidents of each other's fan clubs. Although both of us have many friends of the opposite sex, none of them have that kind of a relationship with us.

So I'm not opposed to all friendships of the opposite sex. I'm only opposed to those that can lead to an affair. And those are the ones where the most important emotional needs of affection, intimate conversation, recreational companionship, honesty and openness, and admiration are met.

As as postscript, you may have noticed that I have not mentioned sex. That's because everyone at MB is already convinced that an opposite-sex friendship with someone who tries to meet a sexual need should be off-limits. It's friends who meet these other needs I've mentioned that sometimes slip under the radar.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Thanks, Dr Harley!

It would be a really good idea to do this. I have been on the radio program twice with my wife, and both times were immensely helpful.

Thank you, Dr. Harley!

NeverSayNever, as you can see from Dr. Harley's post, this "friend" meets all of the criteria outlined above and is NOT healthy for your marriage. Like we tried to explain, when a friend has a lovebank such as this friend does, "romantic love is sure to follow." She already has an account open in your husband's lovebank.

I am not sure how one can keep from revealing personal information to a "friend." Especially a childhood one. And most friends surely are willing to help each other out with life problems.

So, to me, this seems to confirm that married people should have no opposite sex friends.

kerala:

I don't know about your friends, but I have many friends, even from childhood, that are no threat for an affair. I'm sure that you have some, too.

To summarize my criterion for off-limits friendships of the opposite sex:

1. Any friend of the opposite sex that is not approved with enthusiastic agreement by your spouse.

2. Any friend of the opposite sex that had been a former lover.

3. Any friend of the opposite sex that you know might have what it takes to trigger a feeling of romantic love (or may have already triggered that feeling in the past).

4. Any friend of the opposite sex that meets your need for affection (expressions of care and concern), intimate conversation (conversation about personal problems being faced, and topics of personal interest), recreational companionship (spending time together enjoying common recreational activities), honesty and openness (revealing personal feelings, past history, present activities, and plans for the future), and admiration (expressions of respect, value, and appreciation). This is expecially important when your friend does a better job than your spouse in any of these areas. But even if your spouse does better, a friend can manke enough Love Bank deposits meeting these need for you that you may wake up one morning in love with that person.

5. Any friend of the opposite sex with whom you have a private, personal, and bilateral releationship. It's private in the sense that conversation is generally one-on-one, and sometimes kept secret because the spouse would be threatened in some way by it if it were done with the spouse present. It's personal in the sense that personal information is revealed, especially problems faced in life, along with a willingness to help if needed. And it's bilateral in the sense that both people share personal information with each other and prove that they have what it takes to help each other.

Don't you have friends of the opposite sex that don't meet these off-limits criterion? If not, then for you anyway, your opposite-sex friendships are too risky to have.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Thank you, Dr. Harley, for your response.

You have inspired me to ponder this further.

Thanks again, Dr. H, for helping clarify this. It has not been determined that this female friend is a danger to this marriage at this point. NSN's BH may well realize that the phrase "best friend" was a poor choice of words. We have seen that before in new posters who are unfamiliar with Dr Harley's concepts. The time may come when that will be determined. At this point, I believe this friend is going to be a huge supporter of their recovery.

Please, let's get this thread back on track to help Never Say Never with her original request - help in the first steps of the recovery from her affair.

****edit****



As you know, this relationship has met ALL of these conditions the entire length of their marriage. Because of your continual debate on this issue, the couple has not been back and the entire issue has become about this "friend" instead of finding ways to recover their marriage. Please let it drop and let us help this couple.

...just about everyone on this thread, except you...

...and NeverGuessed.

This is the same issue that another WW is demanding her BH conform to, in effect:

"If we're going to reconcile, you must give up all elements of support that aided you through MY INFIDELITY!" (I think that's bordering on marital extortion, yes?)

As someone who only had the fortitude to proceed with recovery, and an FWW who only saw the path she was treading, BY VIRTUE OF THE SAME FEMALE FAMILY FRIEND, you will NEVER get me to consider dropping her (and her family) from our lives.

Kerala disagreed with MaritalBliss; Dr Harley disagreed with Kerala; I agree with Dr Harley. On the basis of HIS advice, let's move forward.

There will be no further disagreements on this thread about the "friend".

Dr Harley advised==
"It goes without saying that if one spouse has a friend that threatens the other spouse in any way, whether it's male or female, the Policy of Joint Agreement dictates that the relationship should modified or ended completely depending on what can be enthusiastically agreed upon by the spouses. I hope that recommendation is understood and supported by those on the Forum."

Allow this couple to follow the POJA & make the decision.

NSN, are you still with us? How are you and your husband doing?

When the focus was on NSN's infidelity, both she and her husband posted regularly. However, when the focus shifted to her husband's OSF and NSN revealed her husband's drinking problem, her husband abruptly stopped posting. Shortly after, NSN stopped posting, too. I'm afraid this doesn't bode well...

...when the focus shifted...her husband abruptly stopped posting...NSN stopped posting, too.

Agreed. What do you think we should take from this, JC?

It sounds like this couple is willing to make steps to address the affair but unwilling to acknowledge entire lifestyle issues that contribute to the state of the marriage. That is a shame.

Radio Clip of Opposite Sex Friendships