My fiancee and I had a great relationship...till wedding planning started.

Her family is not as supportive of us getting married. Apparently an interracial relationship is fine, but not a marriage. She immigrated here 7 years ago.
I figured it was fine, since her father and I got along pretty well, and while he was initially against it, we got to know each other well over the last 6 months while her brothers went overseas to visit family. Apparently there is pressure to make her conform and get a "suitable" husband. The pressure is primarily from her brothers who say is is a stain on the family reputation.

I am African American, she is middle eastern.

I thought we were past this point, as we've been together 3 years and she's been living with me for a while. This shouldn't have been a shock to them, but...well when she announced her engagement, there was an uproar. I told her to talk to her father directly, when he returns from vacation, and ignore everyone else. She is convinced they won't talk to her. Her brother, who returned 2 weeks ago, said some horrible things that I wasn't there to hear...and I want to go find him and bash his head in.

Anyways since then she has been pretty depressed. She sits around all day, she won't shower, she won't do ANYTHING. I've tried making her feel better. I bought her a few gifts, I been working all day and taking care of the house myself. I bought her an expensive painting she's been wanting a while...nothing.
We haven't had sex since...well...yeah.
She is angry and confrontational A LOT. I got my head bit off for asking her to move her car so I could go to work as she was parked behind me.

What do I do? She won't listen to me, she just keeps saying they are going to disown her or kill us. I don't think it will go that far.
I told her if her father was going to disown her or kill me, he would have done it when he found out we were sleeping together, as losing her virginity was a HUGE thing. If he had a problem with, he would have killed me then.
I also learned that NO ONE knew we were living together for the past 6 months except her father and mother. Her oldest brother hasn't been in the states in over a year and the other one...for the past..I dunno a while. Her mother and father were lying and saying she has been living at home. So I don't know if they still think she is "innocent" and marriageable.

What can I do? We've halted all wedding planning, since she is in a shock. I doubt well get a suitable venue for next year. When I offered to wait on the wedding she got angry at me and said it was an insult to act as if I didn't want to marry her. I told her that wasnt the case but I was offered to wait until things cooled down.
What can I do? she's been like this a month.

Welcome to Marriage Builders! Whether you marry this woman or not, you are going to get a great deal out of reading and learning the stuff on this website.

Here are a couple of things that jump out at me from your posting:

Firstly, Dr Harley does not advocate living together before marriage. It creates too much of a compromise mentality. His views on this are supported by tons of evidence on the failure rate of marriages where the parties have lived together. Take a look here Preparing for Marriage for some of the problems this leads to.

The best way to resolve this is for you to decide to live apart now. You will continue to see each other but you are going to earn the respect of her family as well as putting your marriage plans on a firmer footing if you take this step.

Secondly, you refer to your issues as being racial but the issues that jump out of your posting are cultural, not racial. Cultural compatibility is incredibly important in marriage, especially when there are children. If the two of you cannot navigate the pressures from her family now, you are not going to survive conflicted child rearing. Women are the cultural DNA of the world. If you are going to be able to make this relationship work, you are going to need to be able to negotiate every single aspect of your cultural differences starting with her feelings about her family. Read this The Policy of Joint Agreement Start small and keep practicing. Remember that the default is to do nothing until there is an outcome that makes both 100% happy. That goes for where you park your car just as much as for marriage plans.

Oh and a tip from another female; we hate gifts that we feel are bribes.

Weve discussed issues about her culture. I know how she wants to raise any children we have, and I don't disagree with that.

Our issues are not cultural. Her family has specifically referred to me as a "N****r". Not her father, but her brothers. She even explained that it was a racial thing.

I thought this was all settled when I met with her father. From what she told me, he made decisions. This is why I knew he had to accept me or this was not going to happen. My intentions of marrying her were clear. He even had a talk to us regarding how some in the family would not like this. We took this to mean aunts and uncles, not her own siblings.
We discussed everything from my religious beliefs to my parents. My father met with him. They talked. We did this by the book according to her culture.
Her father set aside items that were to be given to her upon her getting married. I knew what was require by me in gifts to her parents. (ie gold etc)
Her culture was no an issue. We ahered to it as best we could to please her mother and father. All except her coming to live with me (and our physical intimacy which then unexpectedly discovered). That was a decision we made ourselves.
He left approx 2 months ago to visit his home country. Her brother returned here to the states. We were not aware they didnt know.
She contacted her oldest brother regarding asking him to send some items back with her parents when they returned. He asked why, she told him, and he flipped out. That was when our world was turned upside down. He apparently knew nothing. We assumed her parents told them. They didn't.

BTW: The gifts I gave her weren't bribes. She has been wanting it, so I bought it thinking it would make her feel better. I just wanted to make her feel good.

I'm asking on how to support her through this. I am fully aware of her culture, with the exception I had NO idea her brothers had a say in this. I did not know they could influence him to change his decision.

You absolutely did not do things by the book to adhere to her culture and lifestyle and family customs. No sex before marriage and that would include living together. I am curious why, if you were so concerned about honoring her culture and her family's wishes that you didn't wait until marriage to live together/have sex with her.

You see now how upset she is with the tug of war between her wishes and her family's wishes. It would have been much easier to make such a decision before she gave her virginity to you.

What a mess. When does her father get back to this country?

If you are just looking for someone to just support your decisions, this is not the right forum for you. You are welcome to take the wealth of advice offered by Dr Harley with many years of supporting successful marriages or not. That is your choice.

For those of us marrying into other cultures (of which I am one) I believe MB and the POJA is the only way to make it work but nobody can change your thinking. Only you can do that.

I have had customers that were of middle eastern descent, Iraqi's, Syrians, Lebanese, and have never known any of them to marry outside of their own culture. Most of the men went back to their home countries, for example, to get a wife and bring her back here. Their female relatives all married within their culture. And they certainly didn't sleep around. Sleeping with an American would wreck her reputation.

I don't know what to tell you, but I am concerned for her because marrying you would be a disaster for her family relations. And when they find out you have been sleeping with her, that won't go over well either.

It would be very surprisng to learn that the main issue is not cultural. You are a "foreign devil," after all. [that is what they call you!] The middle eastern families I knew would never allow a foreign devil to marry into their family.

I not looking for anyone to SUPPORT my decision. We did what we did. It may not have been the smartest of decisions, but we did it.

I am honestly and truly asking how to help her. I have asked her what I can do to help. Is there some way I can do anything to make this easier.
I have asked her multiple times if there is a way I can...assist or if I can talk to them or something. She just tells me no.


Like I said...it wasn't something planned. I completely agreed with waiting till we were married. It..happened.
I'm honest in saying i wasn't concerned with her culture when we first started dating (we weren't physical then). I mean I cared...but I wasn't interested in the minute details. All I knew at the time was that she had a curfew and didn't sleep outside the house and couldn't be alone with me.

I came to have a lot of respect for her father as I got to know him. It was then I asked about her culture. When things became serious. She went over what was expected. What I needed to know and do. I DO respect her culture.
The things we did well over a year ago aren't what I'm discussing. Trust me it took A LOT of pleading to repay for the mistakes I made early on.
I felt really bad as I look back and see how stupid I was. However she put up with me and gave me a chance to redeem myself.

As far as living together, it was not my decision only. It was a solution to an external issue. I don't want to get into it, but everyone involved at the time was fine. Her parents have been to dinner at our house multiple times, and I have been to there multiple times.


Her mother and father know we have been sleeping together, I'm not sure about her brothers. I don't want her to get into trouble, and I do love her.
I honestly just want a way to help her. If you read my other post, you will see she is an amazing woman. However I can tell she is feeling guilt and confusion and a lot of other things. I don't completely understand why the opinion of her brothers matters so much if her father approved of her marrying me. She tried to explain it as them taking over as head of the household as her dad is getting older.

I offered to hold back on the wedding and she thought my saying that meant I didn't want to marry her. That isn't what I meant at all. I thought waiting was something that would help.


End of September


Yes I know. And I feel horrible about that. At the time I didn't realize what I big deal it was. Once I realized it i asked her why she slept with me, knowing how important it was. She said it was because of how I treated her.
I know how much of an honor and privilege and what a serious major gift it was that she gave me.

Honestly...I'm just looking for a way to help her through this
You see what i said about how she is acting and being.
She is the most mild person I've ever met. Yet she has snapped several times.
She is depressed. Not showering, not doing ANYTHING. and its...its not like her. That's why I know something is wrong. really really really wrong.

Also, I read the Policy of Joint Agreement (the link posted) 3 times in the last hour...how can this help us? I don't know what she wants so...I don't know if I can be enthusiastic about anything. Like...I want to do whats best for her, but I can't figure out what that is.

Yes, it's the massive conflict between living the way her family wants her to live, and living the way you wanted her to live. She does not know what she wants. When you treated her very well it made large love bank deposits, so large that she fell in love with you and naturally wanted to be physically intimate with you. If you guys had married then there would be much less of a problem, probably even if you had disregarded all of the cultural stuff about gold exchanges and "suitable" venues. (A justice of the peace is a perfectly suitable and affordable venue for a wedding!) You disregarded the truly important cultural value and focused on the less important stuff, and convinced her to take an action that shamed her.

Now the shame has caught up and it is a massive love bank withdrawal from your account in her love bank. She is probably no longer in love with you, and she probably remembers how you made her feel but does not know how to reachive that.

I would offer her some suggestions. One suggestion I would make would be that the two of you marry IMMEDIATELY in a civil ceremony and work to get a cultural/religious ceremony as soon as practical. See how she feels about that. She may jump at the idea, she may dismiss it immediately, she may dismiss it for awhile and come back to it. In the meantime, work on other suggestions.

Another idea: go to her family, own up to what you did, and ask them for suggestions as to what you can do to make it right.

I read about the love bank thing. I understand that.

I still treat her the same way. At least I believe I do. She hasn't complained about how I treat her. i still do the same things I did before. I'm doing more than I did before because I'm taking over some of the things she used to do. I mean...is there a way to deposit back into the love bank? I love her and I know her and know who she is and I don't want to lose her love.

I'm not being false when I say she just started acting like this when she came home crying about things her brother said.

I didn't ask her to live anyway. Even the sex was not something I initiated. I didn't object, and from what you all are saying I probably should have, but I'm human.
I'm not the type of person to force someone into anything they don't want. That's why I ask her before I do anything or suggest anything. I've been asking her what she wants. What she wants me to do in this situation.

I want her to live how SHE wants to live. Be it with me or not. Be it how her family wants her to live or not. She isn't happy...and that's the only thing I want to remedy. I love her and just want her to be happy.

I did mention the "eloping" thing and just getting married and doing a ceremony later. She dismissed it. It was one of the first things I mentioned when she brought up the objections from her side.


Own up to what I did? What did I do?
I mean the stupid mistakes I made before regarding propriety and stuff, I did apologize for. That happened a long time ago.

So here is your first POJA.

You will tell her that you know she is not happy and that the two of you are going to brainstorm for ways to resolve that. Tell her you want to negotiate and ask her to give you 30 minutes to an hour of her time. Plan ahead.

When that time comes, you will get started. The rules for both of you are; be respectful and do not interrupt.

Start by stating the problem; that she is not happy. Invite ideas from her as solutions, listen carefully. Only ask questions for clarification. Then give some ideas of your own. Be sure to include some completely outside the box ideas as well as more obvious ideas.

If it gets tiring or one of you gets upset, stop immediately.

If you hit on an idea that you are both 100% enthusiastic about, you are done. Otherwise the default is to do nothing.

BUT

Under the POJA rules, you will revisit the issue again in a while to see if any better ideas come up.

Eventually you will find a solution that works for you both. What is amazing is that the ultimate solution will work better than anything you can imagine.

You had sex with her before marriage. That is serious to her and to her family. My suggestion is speak to them openly about it and ask their advice on what to do to make it right. What would make it right in their eyes? You may get some suggestions there that would also make her happy.


Nobody gets the Love Bank with just one reading.


Yes, but one big deposit has turned into a big withdrawal.


Yes. (See, I told you noone fully understands this at first. )



She isn't happy right now and can't see a way to be happy. You brought her great happiness, but because she compromised her values, short term happiness has led to long term misery. She does not know how to fix that.

However, if you can come up with the way to fix this problem, you will probably be her hero. You will make massive love bank deposits.


How about an immediate (or as soon as possible) marriage that would be acceptable to her family? How does she feel about that? How do you feel about that?

If it's been awhile since you mentioned civil marriage, it wouldn't hurt to put the idea on the table again. She may dismiss an idea, then think better of it later.

I WANT to marry her. I do. She is wearing an engagement ring. We picked out colors (she picked out colors) and my parents were happy. She was happy.

It was when she mentioned to her brother that we were getting married that she got a backlash. I don't mind a soon as possible wedding. I was going to marry her anyway...I could do it sooner if she wanted.

Thing is, her brothers made it seem as if marrying me was a disgrace to her family. They want her to have a suitable husband. I believe his words were:
"A Lebanese man who is a doctor or lawyer. From a good family. Someone respectable....have you lost your mind marrying him?"

Let me be known I'm not a doctor or lawyer but I am respectable. I have a six-figure job, college educated with an MBA. I am well on track for a promising career. I'm 26 and I'm no slacker. Her support helped me get to where I am. She is the best woman any man could hope for. I'm beyond lucky to have her in my life.
I'm just not Lebanese or from a prominent family. Apparently her family is well known and respected in her home country. She mentioned this to me before, but I didn't know to what extent.

I want to marry her. It has nothing to do with taking her virginity. I want to marry her because I love her. I ask her if we should talk tonight and she agreed that she wanted to talk to me. I'm scared of what she is going to say...but she mentioned she was cooking koosa, a dish her mom taught her that I love. I dont know what that means but...I'm hoping its a good sign.

This is certainly not all your fault. She bears responsibility for sacrificing her values and goals (of her own and her family) for short term happiness with you. She will need to make a decision now. I am just concerned about the consequeces for her and you both ways.

Then the question is, what does she want now, and she may need to take some time to decide how to answer that.

Here's a radio clip about MB working with different cultures.

Radio Clip on MB Working with Different Cultures

I am under the impression that you don't know anything about her religion. She and her family are muslims, correct? Have you studied the religion even a little bit? Will you be converting to Islam?

As you describe if her family is wellknown and respected in their home country, it will be almost impossible that they will let their daughter/sister marry you, a non muslim man. It doesn't matter if you have MBA and a six figure job. You are nobody to them. They want a great man in everyway "within their culture and religion" for her and that is not you.

Just the fact that you don't understand why she takes her brothers' opinion so seriously shows how clueless you are about their culture and religion.

In islam (assuming that that is their reigion), you CAN NOT get physically intimate before marriage let alone live together or have sex. Women can get killed because of that and that really is a grave sin and a total disgrace to her family.

I can see how angry her brothers are and if she mentioned "having you two both killed" by her brothers, you should really be worried about it. Don't underestimate them. Especially if they are respected and they have money, they must have vast connections and they will be able to do a lot of things.

You should be careful and step away for your and her sake.

And in the meantime study the religion to see if that is the type of lifestyle you would want to have for the rest of your life. Islam is a serious stuff.

I have some understanding...just not a lot. Like I said I didn't take it seriously until we were serious. I honestly just started really looking into her culture a little over a year ago. I even picked up the language a bit.

I have some Muslim friends from college and we talked. I got a clearer pictures, though there are things I don't understand. Especially how rules are enforced on women, but her brothers can do whatever they want.
She is not mahajabat...meaning she doesn't wear a head-covering or anything. She is college educated.

Her cousin married a Lebanese Christian, and though she was disowned for about a year, they took her back with open arms, she is currently talking to her cousin to see what she did.

I didn't know our entire life was a secret from everyone except her parents. This was new to me. I don't think she knew either.
We talked last night, and she told me she doesn't just want to get married quickly, she still wants a wedding.

Right now, she feels she can't do anything until her father returns next month. Her oldest brother is supposed to be coming her soon too, though I don't know when and neither does she.

She spoke with her dad yesterday and he avoided the subject, just talking about the garden over there and some work they were getting done on one of the houses.

I realize now it was a grave sin in cultures eyes, but I talk to her about it and she said.
"I wouldn't have matter whether we slept together or not. You still wouldn't be acceptable because you're not Lebanese" and she left it at that.

So we're waiting, but at least she is talking about it now.