Actually, the default position would mean that neither of them would get on Facebook.

That makes sense, but would her account remain active even though she agreed not to use it? (I don't think EPs are subject to POJA, so this may be a moot point. Still, I'd like to understand what the default would be if FB were subject to POJA.)

I suspect Dr. Harley would encourage them to get on and negotiate rather than debating what the default policy is for their specific case. If she stonewalls and keeps the account for months while they "negotiate," she is very likely to lose her marriage.

I would say that EPs are not open to NEGOTIATION, but the POJA usually falls in line with them.

Yes, those are my thoughts too. Just like exposure, EPs must trump POJA. The BS has to be safe, and EPs are there for protection. Safety first. And that is why I stressed the EP's have to be put down in writing, accepted by the wayward spouse, and enforced before any next steps in recovery happen. If the betrayed spouse compromises even one EP, then the dike has a hole in it. Trouble.

Sorry if I confused the issue. However, POJA is an issue moving forward. If his WW doesn't enthusiastically embrace the MB program, given her past behavior they are in for a false recovery at best.

Exactly otherwise EPs and Just Compensation will be viewed as a punishment.

Most, if not all parents I know wouldn't allow their kids to watch porn. So you put a block on your computer so it won't happen. No one wants to think their kids would deliberately go out and search for porn, and most of them don't even start off that way. So we put boundaries in place to make sure they don't. We also lay out the consequences if they break the rules. You do it to protect them and protect you. EP's are the same. Deleting facebook isn't being demanding, it is to put boundaries in place to make sure it doesn't happen again. And to lay out the consequences if it does (because let's face it, if they want to make it happen, they will, so there has to be a consequence). EP's are there to protect her and you (it's there to protect the marriage).

You don't let your kids watch a little bit of porn while making your love deposits in their banks. You can set boundaries and still do that. You set boundaries BECAUSE you love them. Your wife is the same. You're not running her off, you are setting EP's in place to make sure you have the best marriage possible.

And one thing to keep in mind, she will never want to get rid of facebook. That's like hoping that an obese person want to give up junk food. They don't ever want to, they do it because it's the right thing to do (most of the time they're forced to).

It's easy to mistake boundaries as punishment. EP's are there because of love. Do you love her (and care about your marriage) enough to make sure you set this up? That's the ultimate question.

Good luck!

Good comments, rh, and it's good to see you sharing with others. I would steer clear of the term "consequences," as Marriage Builders doesn't advocate punishment, but rather protecting yourself, in the case of a spouse who will not protect the marriage; also because people need to be careful not to set up a disrespectful situation where one spouse is in control of the other like a parent and child.

This is all good information. I'm feeling pretty hopeless on making progress at this point, hope that passes.

It's easy to say that giving up FB and wholly adopting the POJA and EPs is what has to happen. I BELIEVE that's what has to happen. The WW doesn't believe it has to happen. That's the conflict I'm trying to deal with. She believes there's nothing wrong with being on FB, believes that it isn't the reason she cheated. She views my request to get rid of FB as a selfish attempt on my part to control her. She DOESN'T believe in MB, wants no part of reading Surviving an Affair or even His Needs, Her Needs.

What I think I've figured out over the last few days is she's gone from withdrawal to conflict, completely self centered. She is open to her needs being met by me, but not really willing to meet mine. She is through with the OM, I've been through the messages in her phone and on FB and she sees it as a stupid mistake on her part. She believes going to counseling for herself will change how she thinks and acts. I know this won't work but I don't know how to change her beliefs without draining her love bank.

We found a new house, her dream house. I asked her to lunch yesterday just to get her to talk about our plans for the future and where she saw us as a couple. Her statements over lunch were pretty shocking to me. She claims she is falling in love with me all over again(thanks, plan A). She says that even though we have been together for 12 years, married for 8, that she had never really decided to be with me forever. She says that she now is committed to me for life because no one will ever make her as happy as I do.

What she didn't say was she wants me to be happy, has any interest in trying to do anything to make up for the A, etc. She did say we should stop talking about it and move on, that she's over it and I should be too.

The whole thing seems completely self serving. Granted, she's always been self centered, self absorbed. Should I give up and move on, break up my family for my own happiness? I don't believe that's what God would have me do but I don't know where else to go at this point.

cars, do you think you could get her to talk to Steve Harley or Dr. Jennifer Chalmers at the Marriage Builders coaching center? Or to Dr. Harley on the radio show?

It sounds like your Plan A is working great, but I think you need to start bringing your Taker in: express your needs to her. Without judging her for being self-serving (her Taker needs to be satisfied as well), tell her about your emotional needs and what you need in order to feel fulfilled and satisfied and happy in your marriage, and in love with her. Keep the issues on the table: "I'm not happy with you being on Facebook. It's a hurtful reminder of what happened. And it's a risk I'm not comfortable with us taking. It's hurtful to me for you to be there." "I need us to spend enjoyable time together meeting both of our emotional needs in order to be happy."

How much time is she spending with you per week? Is she willing to follow the policy of undivided attention with you?

You need to calmly keep making the request that she give up Facebook, and that she put EPs in place. Keep requesting that she start this program with you. Don't just stop talking about it. Tell her "This is what I need for us to recover." Plan A her for 6 months, all the while continuing to make these requests.

If after 6 months she doesn't even want to consider putting EPs in place, and refuses to join a program of recovery with you, you may need to look into Plan B. Contact Dr. Harley first, though, to get his insight -- sometimes he can help the BH Plan A longer. The danger here is that if she will not take these precautions to protect your marriage, and refuses to recover with you by giving you Just Compensation, she is headed for another affair. And if by some chance she never does have another affair, your marriage will be a crippled version of what it was before her affair. You will never be happy.

In the meantime, keep calmly telling her this is what you need. It is not a lovebuster for you to ask her to protect you and your marriage. She may not like it, but you need to keep asking.

How long have you been in Plan A so far? How often have you presented this program to her?

She's not willing to talk to anyone about our relationship, I had to coach her through the entire conversation at lunch to get her to talk to me about us and I would have thought if she had all these thoughts about how good she felt about us, she would have been dying to share with me.

We spent 5 days together away from everything, just us. She was on FB for about 15 minutes in those 5 days, was genuinely trying to reconnect with me. Now that I'm back to work, we will probably just barely make the 15 hours a week minimum, which is terrible, I know. Her girlfriend's husband has a surprise party saturday night and we are going to that instead of being alone together and because he doesn't know he has a surprise party saturday, we are also going to their house friday night when I get off work. She is not following the policy of undivided attention correctly, our time together is 100% focused on my part, 80% focused on her part.

The willing part is tough with her. She says she is willing, but her actions being driven by self centered thoughts keep her from committing completely. That whole "A for effort, F for execution". Guess I get the same grade.

Worthless plan A before I uncovered her affair for a month, exposed day after thanksgiving, real plan A two days later, so about 2 weeks.

Sorry your wife is being difficult.

You introducing POJA (as I stated earlier) is a GREAT start to feed her the MB goods. Her being in conflict is a good sign!

Maybe "accidenty" drop her phone in the toilet or a can of paint (less likely to recover it if it went into paint) and get her a dumb phone. Or a new one for xmas all setup with spyware!

In your defence when she tells you FB is not the problem. Ask her to put herself in your shoes. Ask her if you were chatting to women on FB and had an affair that was associated with FB if she would be ok if your continued use of FB. I doubt she would. You could also ask her if FB is more important than her marriage. You could also say that FB gives you anxiety and when she's on it, it withdraws all the efforts she's put in to recovering from her affair. In a calm manner of course.

Fb has to go or at the minimum a shared account ... Disconnect internet if you have to. She sounds like my entitled teenage daughter right now who just had a melt down cuz I put time restrictions on our home pc's. People are too attatched to cyberspace these days. What would she do if the power went out? Die? My kids reacted like they were gunna die lol. So much so my daughter was like a crack addict who just had her crack pipe taken away and yelled all sorts of nasty things to me. After a few days of getting over her withdrawl she's behaving nice again .. Manners and everything. Same with my son.

MNG

I am sure you have been doing plan a for months, so I would give yourself much more time than this. Since your wife is not serious about recovery, you might consider signing up for the MB online program. They are experienced in motivating spouses who have fallen out of love.

And I would most certainly NOT agree to a shared fb account because that does absolutely nothing to prevent her from trolling for men and communicating with them. She can still PM men on a shared account. She can still friend any and all men on a shared account.

Don't even suggest a shared fb account.

Shared account, right, exactly the way my wife had an affair.

I wish this advice would quit getting repeated.

Agree. It is dangerous advice.

You need to continue to keep the issues on the front burner. Raise them even if she doesn't want to hear them. Write a letter if you have to. Be respectful at all times.


I would quit agreeing to all these outside activities until the UA time is solid. Tell her that right now you aren't comfortable spending that time when there's barely enough time to rebuild your marriage.

See how much it affected her when you were able to get a lot of time together? That made some major love bank deposits! It caused her to feel like noone can make her as happy as you can! THAT WILL ALL GO AWAY IF YOU AREN'T ABLE TO SPEND FIFTEEN HOURS A WEEK TOGETHER. It will vanish like a vapor.


Don't call her self centered, because that's judgmental. There's nothing wrong with her wanting to get fulfillment out of your marriage. You need to make sure that she DOES get something wonderful out of it - it just has to be done in a way that is wonderful for you as well.

I wouldn't engage in the debate. She'll see that as disrespectful. Just firmly and repeatedly stick to the fact that it's not a risk you're willing to take.