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My point is...the proposition isn't up for debate or scholarly discussion because by saying a change of sexual orientation isn't possible on MB you are essentially calling Dr. Harley, who has successfully coached persons wishing to change their orientation, a liar on his own website. That's just rude. My other point is the issue can't be debated rationally and will inevitably invite fanatics into the discussion who will ultimately disrupt the forum with their dogma and distract from the overriding core purpose of this forum...helping marriages.

AGG...you seem like a nice enough guy and I recall you being around in the bygone days when MB was about everything BUT MB. It turned out that was a deliberate attempt to undermine this website. The focus here on MB has changed to helping people with MB. Dr. Harley made that call years ago. It's not personal.


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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Originally Posted By: MrWondering
Is gay identity so fragile that it cannot bear the thought that some people may not wish to be gay?


It works exactly the same way in reverse.


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Originally Posted By: MrWondering

AGG...you seem like a nice enough guy and I recall you being around in the bygone days when MB was about everything BUT MB. It turned out that was a deliberate attempt to undermine this website. The focus here on MB has changed to helping people with MB. Dr. Harley made that call years ago. It's not personal.


Thanks, I appreciate it. Sadly, I think that I outlived my usefulness on MB at this point.

AGG


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Originally Posted By: AGoodGuy

Sadly, I think that I outlived my usefulness on MB at this point.

AGG


No sir! As Burke said: All that is necessary for evil to conquer is for a few Good Guys to do nothing...

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Originally Posted By: AGoodGuy
Originally Posted By: MrWondering

AGG...you seem like a nice enough guy and I recall you being around in the bygone days when MB was about everything BUT MB. It turned out that was a deliberate attempt to undermine this website. The focus here on MB has changed to helping people with MB. Dr. Harley made that call years ago. It's not personal.


Thanks, I appreciate it. Sadly, I think that I outlived my usefulness on MB at this point.

AGG


That would be a shame. You've made a big contribution of your time and thoughts here for a long time AGG. If you do go...please stop by and keep us updated. Here's one of my favorite exchanges with you when we were debating/discussing single payer healthcare back in 2008ish:

Quote:

Re: Single Payer Health System? [Re: HURTandSHOCKED]
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Originally Posted By: HURTandSHOCKED
hospitals would require income verification to save you when you had a heart attack to make sure you could pay. Sound cruel, sounds crude. But think about it. The most productive members of society (those who worked and saved) would live longer and those who were not would die off.


For a minute I thought this may be an MB version of Swift's "A Modest Proposal", but I am afraid it's not.

So, to follow this logic, why not have police or fire fighters respond only to those who can pay for their services? No credit card, your house can burn to the ground. No income, fight the intruder on your own. Makes sense to me.

Oddly, as was pointed out, this is a somewhat comical example of what happens in the "pure capitalism" system that some posters here seem to favor. Boy, wouldn't this be a lovely world - you gots cash, you are fine; you don't, you can drop dead for all the rest of us care.

AGG
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#2155228 - 11/07/08 08:18 PM Re: Single Payer Health System? [Re: AGoodGuy]
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Imagine having a health care auction

Highest bid wins

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the_wonderings@yahoo.com (listed by permission)

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Sadly but gladly politically debates aren't allowed on MB anymore. I unnecessarily lost a few good friends that were incapable of vigorous yet friendly political debate.

Godspeed (and, if I recall right you may be Jewish so maybe that should be g_dspeed ---queenie taught me that one that Jews don't capitalize or write out the word "g_d").

Mr. W


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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Originally Posted By: MrWondering


That would be a shame. You've made a big contribution of your time and thoughts here for a long time AGG.


MrW, you know that in the early years (back in 2000), MB was truly a lifesaver for me. I don't know how I would have survived my W's affair and the subsequent divorce without all my friends here, and without Dr. Harley's concepts and the counseling I did with the Harleys. Even after recovering and remarrying, I wanted to continue to give back to this community that saved if not my life, then my sanity smile.

But these days I feel like most of what I post goes into the ether, and that a new "feel" exists here, one that I don't relate to well. One of the best things about the old days was the freedom to discuss Harley's concepts, which to me only proved how strong and common sense they were. The more the concepts were discussed, and the more scrutiny and questioning they withstood, the stronger they became. Yet this newer feel of "do not question or discuss" smacks to me of a weak communist regime (like the one I grew up in) where dissent or even questions are never allowed. That is a sure sign of weakness, not of strength. I happen to feel that Dr. Harley's concepts are very strong and can withstand whatever questions are thrown at them. But I get that this is his website, and I will not argue with him or the moderators, even though I don't believe that he personally would agree with the advice given to the poster on this thread. But I could be wrong, I dunno.


Quote:
Here's one of my favorite exchanges with you when we were debating/discussing single payer healthcare back in 2008ish:...
Sadly but gladly politically debates aren't allowed on MB anymore. I unnecessarily lost a few good friends that were incapable of vigorous yet friendly political debate.


Funny that you found this smile. And yes, that is my point exactly - debate (especially if polite, even if vigorous), is never a bad thing IMO. It makes the stronger argument stand even stronger.

Quote:
Godspeed (and, if I recall right you may be Jewish so maybe that should be g_dspeed ---queenie taught me that one that Jews don't capitalize or write out the word "g_d").


You recall correctly, even though I consider myself a secular Jew (remember how much of a debate that statement caused a few years back?? smile ), so either way is fine with me.

All the best to you and Mrs. W.

AGG


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AGG, questioning, debating, etc. is allowed - but it's not allowed to get onto the thread of someone else who is posting seeking MB advice and debate it.

As an example, if we have a distraught betrayed wife posting and she is being encouraged to go into Plan B, it's not allowed to get onto that thread and debate whether or not Plan B is a good idea. And with good reason - women have experienced horrendous problems by not going into Plan B when they need to. And many people will latch on to any excuse they can to not take vital actions, so when those types of posts come up, especially from an established older poster, the results can be a disastrous distraction.

But anyone can go make a thread in Other Topics and discuss one of Harley's points with which they disagree. And if someone is here seeking help they can and probably will debate some of the concepts on their own thread, while we try to respectfully persuade them of the benefits the MB plan has for them.

Many of us are now listening to Dr. Harley on a daily or at least regular basis through his radio show, so many times for those of us who are doing so it is very obvious what Dr. Harley would say in a particular situation, while to others who aren't as familiar with his various stances they might be under the impression that Dr. Harley has never commented on a particular subject. But nowadays we can and usually do back up what we are saying with a source: a radio show, an article, a book quote.

Dr. Harley is definitely out of the mainstream on some of his opinions, but then again he always was, even from the beginning of his career when he took the radical step of actually measuring the results of his work, following up with couples to see if their marriages were actually saved and improved or not.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
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If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted By: AGoodGuy
even though I don't believe that he personally would agree with the advice given to the poster on this thread.


Dr H really doesn't have a proven track record restoring gay relationships. I don't think anyone does. He has commented numerous times on the radio that these relationships are overwhelmingly less successful, more prone to infidelity, more prone to abuse and violence. I believe that was the original statement you took issue with - but that's very definitely what he has to say.

Dr H has had success helping straight marriages when one spouse has had a same-sex affair. But that doesn't appear to be this situation.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
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If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted By: markos
AGG, questioning, debating, etc. is allowed - but it's not allowed to get onto the thread of someone else who is posting seeking MB advice and debate it.


Agreed. But the original poster has long left, and I suspect largely due the "advice" she got. So it's not like this debate is affecting her actions at this point.

Quote:
He has commented numerous times on the radio that these relationships are overwhelmingly less successful, more prone to infidelity, more prone to abuse and violence. I believe that was the original statement you took issue with - but that's very definitely what he has to say.


My issue was with the fact that someone came here looking for help in her relationship, and for the life of me, I can't see how telling her that being gay is inherently problematic was going to help her. If we are here to help the posters, does anyone truly believe that saying "have you considered not being gay?" is of any value to the poster? The beauty of Harley's concepts is that they apply perfectly well to any couple - mixed race, mixed religion, same gender. It's silly to be telling people to change one of those factors that they are stuck with - all folks can be helped with Harley's concepts.

Oh, and for the record, markos, I did not have issues with your advice, it was actually being helpful to the poster smile.

AGG

AGG


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Originally Posted By: markos
we try to respectfully persuade them of the benefits the MB plan has for them.


And that is exactly my point markos - the poster on this thread could easily have been helped with MB concepts. Instead she was told that being gay is the problem. Is that the way to help her with MB concepts?

AGG


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Originally Posted By: AGoodGuy

And that is exactly my point markos - the poster on this thread could easily have been helped with MB concepts. Instead she was told that being gay is the problem. Is that the way to help her with MB concepts?

AGG



This is the MB concept:
Dr. Harley encourages homosexuals to pursue a heterosexual orientation.
He has extensive experience in this matter.
in fact, he recently testified before the State Legislature against gay marriage proposals and you can listen to his testimony here:

Originally Posted By: Jedi_Knight
Dr Harley testifies against gay marriage before the Minnesota State Senate.
He said most gay people have mental disorders and encourages changing orientations from homosexual to heterosexual.

His testimony is at the 53:00 minute mark on the YouTube Video.

http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/03/06/the-minnesota-hearings/

Dr Harley also wrote a book Defending Traditional Marriage:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6027_dtm.html

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Originally Posted By: Jedi_Knight
Originally Posted By: AGoodGuy

And that is exactly my point markos - the poster on this thread could easily have been helped with MB concepts. Instead she was told that being gay is the problem. Is that the way to help her with MB concepts?

AGG



This is the MB concept:
Dr. Harley encourages homosexuals to pursue a heterosexual orientation.
He has extensive experience in this matter.
in fact, he recently testified before the State Legislature against gay marriage proposals and you can listen to his testimony here:

Originally Posted By: Jedi_Knight
Dr Harley testifies against gay marriage before the Minnesota State Senate.
He said most gay people have mental disorders and encourages changing orientations from homosexual to heterosexual.

His testimony is at the 53:00 minute mark on the YouTube Video.

http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/03/06/the-minnesota-hearings/

Dr Harley also wrote a book Defending Traditional Marriage:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6027_dtm.html


Not sure how this applies to the original poster. Dr H in this video discusses people who came to him wanting to change their unwanted sexual preferences, and he helped them do that. He said he also does the reverse if people want - go from straight to gay.

I don't disagree with what he said. I just don't recall the original poster here asking for help to become straight.

AGG


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Originally Posted By: AGoodGuy
Oh, and for the record, markos, I did not have issues with your advice, it was actually being helpful to the poster smile.


Thank you, AGG. I didn't feel I was particularly helpful. I really feel for this person as well as the children involved. I have known a small number of people in similar situations. I don't know that a good outcome is likely to result.

I half wondered if in this case the current relationship started as an affair during the WW's original marriage. That would explain the child's extreme emotions. And if so that would make the chances of success even far lower.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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No, there is a misunderstanding.
Dr. Harley does not help people become homosexual.

Dr. Harley found that most homosexuals have mental disorders and changing orientation was an important step in creating a more healthy lifestyle.

This poster was helped. People posted quotes from Dr. Harley.
You replied by stating that you googled the matter and didnt find that gay relationships are problematic.

This poster was offered Dr. Harley's advice but you turned it into a debate about sexual orientation

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The video says nothing about telling a gay person to consider being straight. Dr H clearly says that gay people can becomes straight (if they want to) and straight people can become gay (if they want to) (49:04 of your video link).

MB advice is not to convert a gay person to being straight. If you listen to the video, Dr H repeatedly states that he is talking about people who want to change an unwanted sexual preference.

Please show me where Dr. Harley suggests that the way to fix a relationship where the couple does not want to change their sexual orientation is to change it anyway. Regardless of whether it's easier to be in a straight rather than gay relationship, I did not hear Dr H say that he would "help" a gay couple by telling them to become straight.

AGG


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Originally Posted By: markos

Thank you, AGG. I didn't feel I was particularly helpful. I really feel for this person as well as the children involved. I have known a small number of people in similar situations. I don't know that a good outcome is likely to result.


I felt the same way, it was quite sad.

AGG


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Originally Posted By: AGoodGuy
The video says nothing about telling a gay person to consider being straight. Dr H clearly says that gay people can becomes straight (if they want to) and straight people can become gay (if they want to) (49:04 of your video link).

MB advice is not to convert a gay person to being straight. If you listen to the video, Dr H repeatedly states that he is talking about people who want to change an unwanted sexual preference.

Please show me where Dr. Harley suggests that the way to fix a relationship where the couple does not want to change their sexual orientation is to change it anyway. Regardless of whether it's easier to be in a straight rather than gay relationship, I did not hear Dr H say that he would "help" a gay couple by telling them to become straight.

AGG


There is no way to help a gay couple become straight if they dont want to be straight.

But MB is based on traditional marriage. Dr Harley has written books about it and spoken publicly about traditional marriage. His marriage concepts are for heterosexual couples.

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Originally Posted By: AGoodGuy
MB advice is not to convert a gay person to being straight. If you listen to the video, Dr H repeatedly states that he is talking about people who want to change an unwanted sexual preference.


The question was asked then, but the poster was gone, so we don't know if the poster fits into that category or not.


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Folks, this is a Marriage Building forum and not a place to debate sexual orientation. End this debate now and get back to marriage building.


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Originally Posted By: AGoodGuy
The video says nothing about telling a gay person to consider being straight.


Well, he does tell people that. I have heard it on the radio show and he says that in his books. He has a chapter about this issue in Defending Traditional Marriage [Chapter 13]:

Quote:
But I've observed hundreds of same-sex couples in my own professional experience, and they have always stood out to me as being characteristically frustrated and depressed-many to the point of suicide. Same-sex relationships tend to be very brief and, especially for men, very unhealthy and violent. Granted, I've seen my share of unhealthy opposite-sex relationships as well. Yet on average, the same-sex relationships I've witnessed have been far more fragile.

For these and a host of other clinical reasons, I've discouraged my clients from maintaining their same-sex relationships. Instead I encourage them to either pull away from romantic relationships entirely for a time or to turn their attention to opposite-sex relationships. And, contrary to public perceptions, I've seen many clients successfully reorient themselves to opposite-sex relationships. Scores of my previously gay and lesbian clients are now happily married with children-all because they embraced a traditional definition of marriage that is marked by extraordinary care for life.


Quote:
People can become sexually oriented to just about anyone or anything. And they can change that orientation if there is good reason to do so. In the case of gays and lesbians, a change to opposite-sex orientation can help them achieve more fulfilling relationships for themselves. And it provides the best opportunity to raise happy and successful children as well.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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