hfd, something that rings so odd to me, is that your wife is OKAY with working in such close proximity to the OMs location.

My H had a totally enmeshed LTA, and about six months into TRUE recovery, HE came to ME and asked for us to expand our boundaries as far as the "no travel zone", because HE had ugly triggers and that HE didn't want to have the memory of that "awful time in his life".

Have you ever stopped to think about how it must feel for a truly repentant FWS to have to live those memories of the devastation that they have wreaked on their family?

I have to wonder why your wife doesn't have any of those triggers?

Jedi,

We have made up our mind at this point that we are not moving at this point in time.

No more questions.

Thanks for you time, and goodnight.

In essence:

1. EPs are not subject to POJA? (Then what if one of the parties doesn't agree to an EP?)

2. There's no purpose in trying to 'create' EPs on an IB? (Meaning, you don't make up EPs for something that wasn't agreed upon - poja'd - in the first place).

hfd, no, EPs are not subject to POJA.

EPs are so that you as the BS are SAFE going forth with recovery after an A.

EPs are so that you will have mental assurance that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for your wife to re-kindle the past A or ever get involved in a new one.

EPs are the absolutes that YOU require in order to even feel the willingness to attempt recovery.

When we designed EPs, if my H had not agreed to them, we wouldn't be together today. Along the way as I figured out more and more of what I needed, he agreed to each and every thing. As time went on and he came out of the fog, HE came up with more EPs so that we covered every base.

We as a couple have to (continually!) take EXTRAORDINARY measures to protect our M. As others have pointed out, anything that comes before the marriage will eventually come between the marriage.

I really can't conceive of how you or your wife could be one bit okay even contemplating her working near OM. I also can't figure out why two years in your children's lives could be more important than you and your wife honestly repairing your M so that you will be together to enjoy future grandbabies.

Correct



If the adulterous party does not agree to an EP, it is because he or she does not want to repair the damage. Then your only choice is to prepare to leave. Sometimes this will cause a change of heart.



The purpose of EPs is to protect the marriage. That is not negotiable. Independent behavior is the opposite of a marriage. It essentially says 'I care for myself more than I care for you'. In a real marriage, you put your spouse ahead of you.

Independent behavior leads to disrespectful judgements which in turn lead to angry outbursts. Once you get to that point your marriage is on life support.

I want to learn this, I do.

So, an EP would be "not working in OMs county" from the get go.

An EP is not "once you take a job in the OMs county that I'm not enthusiastic about, here are things you can do to make me feel safer about it..."

Is this the MB approach?

Hi HFD,

I am certainly no expert on MB concepts, but I think you should review the comments by TD and JK again - they are absolutely correct! I believe the two concepts are mutually exclusive.

EP is just what the term implies - extraordinary precautions to affair-proof a M and promote a healthy recovery. If the former WS doesn't agree or wants a condition altered or relaxed, then there is a problem, but it doesn't mean that the other spouse becomes willing to negotiate. Joint Agreement is a policy of maintaining a healthy and happy marriage, as JK stated. I think it is a method of respecting each others' needs and opinions by achieving enthusiastic agreement. I think it does apply to most things in a marriage. However, I believe that Harley cites exceptions, such as exposure or when the health and safety of a spouse may be put at risk. Therefor, I think that one of the exceptions would be to 'agree' to relax an EP, because it could adversely affect the health of the M.

Tom

Of course! EP's are not negotiable. The first step in recovering from an affair is assuring no contact with the OP. If she is going to work close to the OM, she is violating an EP.

HFD,

I just thought of another example that might help you. When you say we have made up our minds that we are not moving at this point, it sounds like mutual agreement. However, if You had set moving away as a condition for your remaining in the M it would be an EP and would be non-negotiable. If your W did not agree or resisted, it would indicate that she is NOT 100% committed to the repair and recovery of your M, and you would have a decision to make. If you gave in to her resistance and delayed the move you would be seriously compromising your recovery by continuing the risk of further mention of the OM or even chance contact with him or just enabling triggers and memories to occur by remaining in the area.

The WHERE to move (as long as far away from OM) can be subject to POJA. I.e., considerations of big city vs. small town, job opportunities, climate, cost of living, etc.

I hope this helps.

Tom

As others have said, yes. Additionally, your second quote demonstrates a breach of POJA. If you're not enthusiastic about her taking a particular job, it's off the table for her. The issue is not what she can do to make you feel "safer", but that you are not enthusiastic about it. In this case, it also violates EPs but even without that element, it is inconsistent with MB.

Ok, to follow through...

If/when she accepts this job -- which we did not poja, is not up for poja -- she is not honoring an EP (not working in OMs county).

Even if SHE does not believe it does not need to be an EP, becasue SHE feels she/we are 'safe and secure and nothings going to happen'...or feels that the EP is dictating where she can or can't work, thus 'limiting' her professional happiness/growth...so long as it is an EP for ME...it's an EP. It just IS an EP, correct?

In this case, by breaking nthe EP, she is engaging in Independent Behavior, which may damage the marriage, according to Dr. Harley...may lead to sacrifice, resentment, etc...all bad things.

And the next step in the MB program if you're in a marriage where the spouse will not honor EPs?

The next step in the MB program is to start working the program with your wife and INSIST she follow extraordinary precautions to protect you from another affair. Start working this program, hfd, it is not a cafeteria plan where you take a little of this and a little of that. Your marriage is not going to work out if you are not following EPs and you don't use the POJA.

HFD,

I think it's much more than independent behavior. It's could be a violation of a condition you established to remain in and protect your marriage and work on recovery with her. Doesn't make any difference if she feels it's justified or not. If I just come to a rolling stop at a stop sign because there is no traffic and I feel the complete stop doesn't apply in this instance - would not make any difference to a traffic cop who may be behind me. Independent behavior is more like me going to a poker night with the guys even tho my wife would rather we go to a movie.

Take care,

Tom

This situation should have NEVER come up if you had been using the POJA in the first place. She would have NEVER applied. Applying for a job you can't take "for the interview experience" is ludicrous and unbelievable. This should have never been an issue in the first place if you were following this program.

It is unfathomable that you are still discussing the OM 4 years later. Unbelievable. And it is all because your marriage COMES LAST. This is the result when you put your marriage as the LAST PRIORITY.

I feel strongly that you are going to have to endure a resumption of the affair to ever GET IT. You are going to be a member of the School of Hard Knocks by the time this is all over.

I had the same reaction, hfd.

She shouldn't even be driving over there near the OM's house, not for a coffee, not for an interview and certainly not for a job!

If you listened to the radio show AT ALL you would know this!

You two need to start listening and you need the online program. As I recall, this issue was brought up to BOTH of you about a year ago.

"You two"....

I can insist all I want: I am not enthusiastic about you working in OMs county and that's an EP for me.

I know the answer is to follow the program.

The question is when, after all the 'insisting', one spouse believes the other is making an issue our of something that doesn't exist, and refuses or simply does not fundamentally believe in the EP, or abiding by the EP (ie 'you can't tell me where to work!')

Can a betrayed spouse never believe the fws has truly learned horrible lessons from an affair and know that that person would never walk down that path again?

Even after all of the mental, spiritual, financial, medical consequences? A fws wouldn't come to know 'I'm never doing THAT again"???

I listen to the show as often as I can.

I check into the forum often.

I watch for a read updated materials posted by Dr. Harley.

Hfm does not frequent the website or listen to the rebroadcasts.

I have shared that I wished she at least kept in touch with the forum, the readings and touching base with other MBers.