How do you plan to do that? Please start your own thread and tell us about your plan.

This turned out to be a massive post. Thank you for trying to read through it if you do. The main question....why is negotiating not working well? Current example provided.

So it started a few days ago while we were having a pleasant conversation about how we might finish creating 3 bedrooms. Currently we have 2 bed/1bath and our more-than-average number of kids soon need to be gender segregated as well as just needing more bedroom space.
In the conversation, which was pleasant and happy, I started talking about how efficient and convenient the room we were in was going to be when set up as the girls bedroom. My husband asked why it was going to be the girls room rather than the boys room.I thought this had already been decided. I have no idea if my memory is incorrect or what. It doesn't really matter as if we had once were agreed it is no longer an agreement let alone enthusiastic. So this is where the conflict began.


Him: Why is this the girls' room?

Me; Oh. I thought we had decided it was. Why would you make this the boys' room?

Him:This room is bigger, and there are more boys than girls.

Me:The rooms are almost the same size.Just the alcove is extra. It just seems to me to work better for this to be the girl room. (later on in the conversation I got up and measured both rooms to make sure I was accurately stating. They are exactly the same size other than the alcove a dresser fits into.

him: this room is bigger it is logical that it be the boys room

Me: Could you explain to me how it works out to be more space?

Him: it is bigger.

me: It isn't practically significant and this room is already decorated in girl appropriate ways.

What does that matter?

Neither the kids nor I will be enthusiastic about pink roses in the boy room although it would not kill anybody. And the boys already like the way the other room is decorated. And I really don't want to have to take down the wallpaper and redecorate while it is still in good condition and we can work with it to make it a room girls like. We will also need to get more furniture when we divide rooms like a dressing table for girl stuff.

Why do they need to be treated like princesses?

I don't want spoiled princess behavior either. I am talking about practical issues like a place for them to set brushes and hair clips down on a surface in front of a mirror while they are grooming and drawers for hair accessories and jewelry.

Why do they need a dressing table? My sisters didn't have one.

Do you want them to groom themselves like your sisters did?

no.

Then we have to work with our lifestyle and figure out what works for us.

Why can't they do it in the bathroom.

What are we going to do when the siblings are aggravated because a girl has been in there combing for 10 minutes and they are waiting to pee? And there is no counter surface to set brushes, combs and clips down while they are in progress.

My sisters just had a little mirror on top of a bureau.

We expect our girls to start learning how to take care of their own hair before they are tall enough to use the top of a bureau. We have to pick a different option.

They can see in the bathroom mirror.

But that ties up the bathroom....etc. How do you see the layout working for the boys furniture to be in here and be bigger than just the boys furniture left in the other room after we separate everything.

This room is bigger.

It is ridiculous to insist that the alcove makes this room practically bigger.

He flagged me for disrespectful judgement there. I apologized.

I restated. The alcove isn't significant when you consider the furniture, the different window and door placement.

.....I think he said that's not logical.
The facts are this room is bigger.
There was silent pauses too.

I then asked since it wasn't an emergency decision that we stop and talk about it later. It wasn't a happy conversation any longer and it was supposed to be a fun bonding UA time.


So tonight he asked if we could talk about it again.

We replayed alot of the talking points. We got a little more info exchanged, but no agreement on some of the inside issues of function and use purposes.I made it clear I am completely open on every aspect for alternative options.

He says we can't negotiate anymore because I am dismissing the fact that the room is bigger. We boiled it down to this....

He feels the room is significantly bigger.
I feel the room is insignificantly bigger.

He says we can't negotiate more and poja means he has to be enthusiastic. I told him I was not enthusiastic either and asked that he offer more points to persuade me to his point of view.
(I remembered the advice to be sure he is at a negotiating table and that we are not on a dueling dictator battlefield.)
I felt dictated to and unsure what should happen next and asked that the conversation end as it was now very unpleasant at least on my end. We were on the phone so it was easy to drop the conversation.

I agree that he must feel enthusiastic if it is a POJA. We BOTH have to be enthusiastic which means we MUST negotiate more because we are not in any agreement and far from enthusiastic.
His one persuasion point is that the room is bigger because of the alcove. I am not persuaded by his persuasion point.
I want to negotiate more by talking about function and use goals, the furniture necessary for those functions, and placement of the furniture in each room so we can see practically what is the most efficient and maximizes the open floor space in the end.

I really do want him to be happy with the choice. I don't just want to do it how I think best. I do want to be happy with the end result and I also want to be confident in the knowledge that he is enthusiastic as well so it is not a festering sore point later on.

Where in the negotiating steps are we going wrong?

Why do I feel like my lovebank is drained? I don't know what happened?

Did I commit lovebusters in that scenario other than the disrespectful judegement that was flagged?

Also, my husband IS able to control his anger. He has always been able to avoid outbursts at work or in public and in the past has gone weeks at a time avoiding it at home too. I guess it is not surprising to find that he can control the outbursts at home now that he has decided to, but the thing I really like is that he seems to be calmer and more level emotionally, eliminating even the feeling of anger as well.

Hopeful, but a little discouraged by the big picture.

Where did this go wrong? The answer is everywhere! This was not a POJA at all. The pair of you were just bickering. Don't worry, the POJA is difficult and takes a while to get right.

You never POJA over the telephone, always face to face with plenty time to totally focus on the issues.

One of you states the issue. The issue might be 'how would you feel about giving this room to the girls?'

Then the other can respond. A response from him might be 'I would rather give it to the boys'.

At this point you each try to come up with creative ways to find a solution that makes you both happy. Do not worry that some ideas will seem a little crazy such as neither gets the room or that the wall is moved. The key thing here is to keep throwing out ideas and to keep it respectful. You are not going to get anywhere if you get out the measuring tape as this has nothing to do with finding a great solution.

You see that the object of this exercise is not to be right but to make both of you happy.

If nothing sticks or the conversation is no longer pleasant, you stop and do nothing but to revisit the issue later. You may find that other solutions come to you in the middle of the night!

In this situation, the POJA could have included ways to alleviate concerns.

So, for example, maybe he offers to take down the wallpaper and paint it himself and then you might negotiate when that happens so it doesn't cause other concerns.

Or, you guys come up with a different sleeping arrangement for the kids. Or, you decide to build shelves or loft beds for the boys or buy them bunk beds to get more space.

Or, if you have a basement you put some of the boys toys there or agree to build a bedroom space there (even if it's just wood frame and some sheets draped over it).

Or, give the boys your room and you take their room.

There are a lot of ways to get more creative with the negotiating.

One of the things Dr. Harley recommends when you are negotiating something that is emotional or highly sensitive (and this seems to be for both of you) is to take the negotiation process to writing. He recommends having a notebook that you write to each other in, back and forth. The beauty of this is that it takes the heat off the moment, and you are able to think about your response and take the time to write a response without lovebusters.

Markos and I use email, which is similar to the notebook. It really works. We still use email today, even though we are deeply in love and recovered. It's simply safer.

I suggest you two start doing that.

It would also be good for you two to take some time practicing negotiating smaller things, that you feel less invested in.

You are very much correct, and I'm impressed that you realized that. Realizing that even if you had agreed before doesn't mean he's bound to that decision and you need to renegotiate is a hurdle a lot of people have trouble jumping at first.

I would've worded that "Would you prefer it be the boys room?" It's less confrontational and sounds more open to listening to his side.


Question: Is it okay that he thinks the room is bigger?
Did you ask him "How would you feel about measuring the rooms?" or did you do that just to prove your point? It looks to me like you went on a campaign to educate him here, which would have turned him off of negotiating.


"It isn't practically significant" is a value judgement, making this is a disrespectful judgement.

All good points that need to be taken to the negotiating table, but be careful that you do not eliminate ideas from the getgo BEFORE you've negotiated. You don't throw out ideas during the brainstorming phase -- so, it's okay if redecorating the rooms is still on the table as a possibility.

LOTS of DJs being thrown between BOTH of you there. This conversation should have ended a long time ago.

Both are valid feelings. Both of you are dismissing the other.

I suggest that you back off of this problem for a short while and practice some more on smaller, less emotionally charged issues. Use the notebook.

Go over the rules for negotiating again. Talk about if either one of you feels disrespected, you both agree to end the conversation and come back later. Agree, again, to protect each other.

And when you come back to this issue, use the notebook.

In summary, you are both looking for objective truth here. There is no objective truth when it comes to this. You disagree on what the truth is, which is okay. You need to get away from pinning down what the objective truth is, and work together to look at the advantages of BOTH views and the disadvantages of BOTH views.

Consider the advantages of the girls being in the room with the alcove. Consider the disadvantages. Consider the advantages of the boys being in there (REALLY consider it -- he's got some points. Listen to them), and the disadvantages.

Stop arguing about the size of the room. There is no objective truth on that. You disagree. Move on to considering your options.

You don't need to agree on the size of a room!

If it were me I would have dropped that tack entirely and instead stated options and concerns.

Like: I'm concerned about the girls tying up the bathroom. Or I'm concerned about having to redecorate. However make it clear the option will be considered if your concerns are addressed.

His mentioning the mirror/bureau idea is actually negotiation. Just like you wanted! Write the idea down instead of shooting it down.

However he'd have better luck if he'd said 'how about' instead of asserting his sister's have some kind of insightful truth to the 'right' way but I would take any ideas and encourage them.

I like that idea. I already like the way we talk when on the phone or while driving much better than face to face and that is probably why.



Point taken.



Yes, it is ok that he thinks the room is bigger. It is ok that he thinks it is fair that more square inches should go to the greater number of kids needing to be contained in the room.
But just because I think it is ok that he thinks that doesn't give us a solution I am happy about. I don't want to argue about room size. To me it is insignificant. It is significant to him. We can't change the way each of us feels therefore we have to use some other persuasion negotiating points to reach a mutually enthusiastic choice.
Do I somehow have that wrong? I have capitulated many times. I am a people pleaser. I want him to be happy and it wears me out to assert over and over again that I agree a point is true, but I am still not happy. I'd rather suck it up and go along. But that is part of the reason I am sitting here feeling like I would rather separate than stay married. I want to/need to be in a marriage that holds happiness for me. I am worn out already, and this being honest is hard work. Is it a waste of time? I can't afford to spend time and energy on the wrong approach physically or emotionally.
To be clear, objective truth matters to both of us. I am not saying that details don't matter to me. I like facts and data when making a decision, but I tend to be more swayed by subjective truths like efficiency, asthetics and such as well. The big picture. He is less swayed by the subjective truths.


I did not intend to set him straight when I went and measured. I can see how it looks that way and how he might have felt that way. He did actually think that the room was larger other than the alcove. Does it matter that I knew he was wrong in one point of the room being bigger? I guess not if we would not try to deal with the objective truth of size and instead went to feelings.

I did ask him if we could measure it and he said sure. I don't think I asked him how he would feel if we did. In the past he has replied to statements like that "It doesn't matter how I feel" I take that to mean that the objective truth is what matters to him and he doesn't appreciate being asked to think about how he feels. Maybe I need to ask him to explain what he is trying to say.

My intention was to try verify the objective data so we could move past that as it seemed he wanted to deal with/settle that before we could move on to other persuasive points.

In the past I might have dropped the conversation and come back later with a couple options with graph paper and proportionately accurate furniture layouts drawn in to illustrate what I think the options are after together deciding that, for example, we are not moving, not knocking out a wall, and these two rooms are the ones to make into kid rooms. He picks the one he likes and we implement.
Two issues with that. I resent having to take the responsibility in brainstorming every time. Secondly, I don't think that is really negotiating. He never feels invested or participates in investigating how he feels about the whole shebang. And later when he is unhappy, then it becomes a mark against me.

Got it. Could I have said, it isn't practically significant to me? Worded like that is is still a DJ? That is what I meant. I understood very well that it was significant to him and had no intention of changing his mind. I am trying to become honest in our communications and not let him misunderstand that just because I understand his viewpoint that I hold the same. He gets frustrated when I agree with an objective truth, but then do not automatically want to make the same choice he wants to make.


I agree. Some details are missing in the scenario I typed up such as that I told him I would not be enthusiastic about stripping wallpaper and asked if he would be willing to do that. His reply was no. Pink roses in a boys room don't matter and is acceptable.

This was something I wanted to know/hear although it stings to be caught lovebusting. I will look at DJs some more and try to understand and stop them.
And it is not funny at all, but I am chuckling because I suspect we won't be finishing many face to face conversations for awhile. I'm sure we do POJA small things on a day to day basis that we simply don't notice because there is not real conflict in them. I don't mean we won't talk, but it is likely to be frustratingly humorous understanding and breaking the DJ habit.

How do I communicate that I am not dismissing him or his point of view while communicating that his feeling is not persuading me to be happy and that I am not willing to capitulate. I just want to agree that we each hold a viewpoint and agree to disagree and that we still have things to negotiate. I feel like he is wanting to negotiate that point, insisting that we have to negotiate that point before anything else matters. Did I say already....It seems he feels disrespected when I simply don't agree. I would like to make him FEEL that I do respect him and I do want to fight for his right to be enthusiastic and happy while still maintaining radical honesty and that I am not going to change my mind just to have peace.

Michiganmom, thank you for the ideas. Many of those were mentioned in our second talk as I was trying to just zoom out so we can get out of a stalemate and back to negotiating.... I offered suggestions of moving, adding on, giving one set of kids the room we are in the middle of constructing with a small ensuite bathroom instead of moving into it ourselves, changing the functions and purposes of each room in our house entirely......

With the new room we are still just over 1000sq ft and we homeschool and are here almost 24/7. It holds all of our necessities and many of your suggestions are already implemented. Creative solutions are a necessity. I am a dreamer, ideas come easy. Financial limitations make it hard to implement many of them, but hey....got to dream up something you don't have before you can want and work for it.

If it is insignificant to you, then why argue about it?

But there is no objective truth here, you see.

He thinks the room is bigger. You don't. Neither of you is wrong.

This is like the two of you are standing back to back. One of you faces an ocean, the other is facing a mountain. You see two very different things, but neither one of you is wrong in what you are seeing. There is no objective truth here.

But you are stuck on making each other understand the facts.

Stop focusing on facts and making each other agree with the facts.

What are the advantages of the boys being in that room? What are the disadvantages? What are the advantages of the girls being in that room? What are the disadvantages? Focus on those. Be open to it all, regardless of the facts.

Don't

One of the things I'm often telling my kids is "It's okay if other people are wrong. Let them be wrong. You don't have to straighten them out."

Let him be "wrong." If he wants to think that room is bigger, let him. Move on to brainstorming ideas.

Brainstorming is all about coming up with ideas. He had some ideas that you immediately dismissed. Don't be so quick to throw out his ideas just because they don't immediately appeal to you. Add them to the list. Spend days adding both of your ideas to the list, even those that seem wild or crazy or just plain absurd.

THEN discuss which ones you like, and why.

My frustration is that in our two conversations he had a main point and that point was the room size. I asked him for other points and he reiterated that one again and again.

(He will often say "I already told you what I think" and it will be ONE point like this. This is a typical response and I don't know how to handle it or respond. Shuts POJA down. There are so many things not be taken care of do to the "do nothing" solution.)

I did make sure to validate some of his points although I did not document them up there in the scenario........such as he doesn't want to spoil the girls just because they are female. I get that. I felt he was implying I did want to just because I mentioned a dressing table. Later I asked him what he thought a dressing table meant and made it clear I am not asking for some froufrou, I just want a space that fits the need of organizing grooming issues...... conversations like that might help us get to know each other better. Make him less defensive, less likely to assign judgements to my thoughts and actions. I hope.... I know for many reasons, some of them my responsibility, I have not been honest/am unknown to him. I hope that can change and that's a big part of where the MB plan will help us make a happier marriage.

I want to branch out and talk about what kind of lifestyle we expect for the kids such as do the girls even do their own hair before they are tall enough to use a bureau, and do we want them to use hair clips and jewelry, and do the boys need a dressing table too....on and on to get on the same page of our expectations of what functions and uses the bedrooms must fill.

We did a little of that, but probably too much lovebusting had already happened to make it effective??? Too much emotion stirred up???

Got it. Write stuff down. Don't just make mental lists.

YES. In the last year I have often told him we actually make a great team WHEN we work together because we do look at things from different perspectives.

He is very concerned that we are just incompatible.


Ok....I will go back to my corner and think this over. Thank you for the help.

Yes.

Husband is reading....
I did not mean for the scenario to be verbatim. If something makes him look bad ask about it. It is not my intention to make him look good or bad to you guys.....i just want to communicate the gist of it as straightforwardly as possible so you can help me work the plan.

This bothers him so I am offering a correction.
He did not say "why does she need to be treated like a princess." Instead he said "she is not a princess."

That's a mistake many couples make - they try to frame the discussion in terms of objective truth instead of focusing on the value in each other's perspectives.

It's a DJ either way, and a distraction from negotiation

Your main concerns are not incompatible at all. He wants the children to feel equally valued and you want the girls to be able to practically do whatever morning tasks, like their own hair, that you need them to. Your solution simply needs to take on board both views which is hardly chalk and cheese.

He kept mentioning size of the room probably because he feels the boys would see it that way. Now he needs to address how that aspect is considered while the girls' needs are considered too.

Will he post here?

This is his thread: Need help with anger management