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Btw, Prisca, I wanted to thank you for your referencing your posts with Marcos some time back. It was interesting to see how Marcos responded in your interactions. Something about you throwing bags of lettuce and yelling in the store and storming out, and Marcos immediately realizing that he messed up. Perhaps I have it wrong but that's how I remember it.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your path with others.
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Btw, Prisca, I wanted to thank you for your referencing your posts with Marcos some time back. It was interesting to see how Marcos responded in your interactions. Something about you throwing bags of lettuce and yelling in the store and storming out, and Marcos immediately realizing that he messed up. Perhaps I have it wrong but that's how I remember it.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your path with others. Hi Dr. Harley, we are struggling with the implementation of POJA. I knew this would be a problem for me because of my penchant for independent behavior. [I scored a 20 on your test and DH scored a 5] But he seems to continually engage in angry outbursts. Over micky mouse stuff, usually related to money, even though we make a good living and are financially comfortable.
Can you look at this dialogue, which happened in the grocery store today, and tell me how this should be done? This is the 2nd week in a row he has exploded in the grocery store. You had mentioned learning POJA skills in the grocery store and it is not going well!
Mel: does a salad sound good to you for dinner?
DH: that's fine
We approach the produce section and DH picks up a head of lettuce
Mel: I had planned on getting kale, romaine or spinach because there is no nutritional value in lettuce
DH: says nothing
MEL: grabs a bag of shredded romaine lettuce
DH: I REFUSE TO PAY THAT MUCH FOR A BAG OF LETTUCE!!! [it is $2.99 whereas the head of lettuce is $.89] PUT IT BACK!!
Mel, horrified and embarrassed at this outburst, tries to ignore him because she can't believe he is acting so disrespectfully over $2.99
DH follows her and says again: "MEL, PUT THAT BACK!! I REFUSE!!"
I take the salad dressing I am carrying, slam it into the cart and say "that's it, I am done" and leave the store. He follows me out to the car with "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you can go back in and get the groceries. I will stay out here and leave you alone."
We had a similar scene the week before where he went into a rage over tortillas. I tossed 2 packages into the cart and then decided to add another. [we had company coming] He pitched a fit and demanded I put back the 3rd package.
Dr. Harley, just so you know, I am 50 years old, have a successful career, and am financially comfortable, and can damn well afford tortillas and romaine lettuce.
Every time he has one of these meltdowns over micky mouse stuff, I can hardly stand him for a week. What do you suggest? MelodyLane: There are two separate issues that should be addressed in your marriage: angry outbursts and independent behavior. The more important of the two is the angry outbursts.
The trigger for your husband's angry outburst is your independent behavior. It's the reason for his angry outburst, but it's no excuse. Your husband should attend anger management training until he can control his anger under all circumstances, regardless of how frustrating they may be to him. My position on this issue is repeated throughout my books, articles and radio show. Anger solves no problems -- they create new ones. I realise that there is a problem on how we commicate and I will work on resolving that problem.
I am confused on the angry outburst comment though. At no time did I get angry and have an outburst. My idea of of an outburst is yelling and screaming but I guess that is not the case? Talking to ML though I do see where she thinks it was, so I apologise And will take the approipate actions to amke sure it does not happen again. Honestly looking back, it shouldnt of been that big of deal to me and should of let it pass.
However,It seems to me that whenever I disagree with ML, that her first commment is that I am trying to control her. Same could be said about POJA..... goldwinger59: If your wife's description of your interaction is correct, you had an angry outburst. It was not simply letting her know that you were not enthusiastic about buying the Romaine lettuce. Granted, she may have problems with independent behavior, but if you respond with an angry reaction, it will lead to either a fight or her withdrawal from you. So the first order of business should be to identify your angry reactions, and completely eliminate them from your conversation.
As for her independent behavior, it's an issue that you have probably been trying to iron out for some time. It's tough getting used to asking how a spouse feels about a decision before it's made, particularly when you think you have the right to make unilateral decisions. But your wife wants to get into the habit of using the POJA, and the more you practice it, the better you'll get at it. Just don't get angry with her when she fails the test.
Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr. Hi Dr. Harley, I wanted to give you an update on how well your advice has worked. We are somewhat surprised at how different things are now compared to the past. The changes we have made in IB and AO have had a domino effect and are impacting other emotional needs in a positive way. In the past, my H would blow up about once a month, usually in response to my IB and then I would withdraw. I have to admit I was pretty bad, though.
He has not had an angry outburst since you told him that [I think he was SHOCKED to be told he was having an AO], mostly because he is now relaxed around me. He is relaxed around me because I am not "surprising" him with regular bouts of IB. We POJA most of our spending so he doesn't worry all the time, and he gets to rathole money every month. [he loves to save money]
This change has led to him meeting my need for admiration, affection and my willingness to meet his for RC because he is so much more pleasant to be around.
The key, indeed, was learning to POJA in the grocery store. Our visits to the grocery store today are pleasant and enjoyable. We know pretty much what we want and what is acceptable to the other so there is no longer fireworks. This has expanded to all other areas of our life.
Thanks, Mel MelodyLane:
While there are no excuses for angry outbursts in marriage, there are reasons, and independent behavior usually tops the list. I'm happy to hear that you're making it easier for your husband to overcome his AOs by avoiding IB. Keep up the good work!
Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
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Posted to your thread on 11/26/14 
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I didn't go looking for it but it's as I remember it. And I do recall it occasionally, even just recently, and just wanted to say thanks.
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Giving thanks is good. I was just clarifying that the story was posted by Melody. I think that you would be surprised at some things if you looked over the first few pages of your thread. Lol.
Day, I want to compliment you on being straightforward with Remark about your feelings about his family. It is tough to own your feelings and be clear. It is also good that Remark is being clear, even if it means getting flack from us. Finally there is admission of perspectives. The conflict is what it is.
Congratulations to you both for coming to the agreement to talk with Steve. I hope that it will be helpful to you both. Are you going to write a summary of your perspective for him?
Last edited by DidntQuit; 06/29/15 10:34 PM. Reason: Hell phone
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Giving thanks is good. I was just clarifying that the story was posted by Melody. I think that you would be surprised at some things if you looked over the first few pages of your thread. Lol. D'oh!! Even after re-reading it, I didn't notice that it was MelodyLane! I had it cross-wired in my head that it was Prisca and Marcos. Well then thanks to MelodyLane. Day, I want to compliment you on being straightforward with Remark about your feelings about his family. It is tough to own your feelings and be clear. It is also good that Remark is being clear, even if it means getting flack from us. Finally there is admission of perspectives. The conflict is what it is. Was I not clear before? I feel like I must sound like a broken record. It's heartbreaking to think I wasn't being clear. Congratulations to you both for coming to the agreement to talk with Steve. I hope that it will be helpful to you both. Are you going to write a summary of your perspective for him? I would have agreed to a counseling session with Steve long ago. We've already engaged with Willard and I don't see it as much different. I wasn't interested in doing the on-line program. I'll write a summary if it comes to that, but I'm waiting to see how Remark responds to the recent posts on his thread. I'm certain Steve Harley is going to say the same thing the forum has said for 6-7 months, the same thing Willard said. Remark may just decide to save the money and throw in the towel. I know how he feels, he's told me for years, in both word and deed. But sure, I'll write a summary and join in on the call. Btw, he's not posting tonight -- not because he doesn't have internet access -- but because an old college friend was in town and he met up with him for a few hours. Nero's fiddle, once again.
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Quick question. Are posters "fighting" with Remark on his thread? If posters are fighting with Remark, it's irrelevant. We aren't married to him, have to live with him, and could care less about filling his Love Bank.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Day, I want to compliment you on being straightforward with Remark about your feelings about his family. It is tough to own your feelings and be clear. It is also good that Remark is being clear, even if it means getting flack from us. Finally there is admission of perspectives. The conflict is what it is. Was I not clear before? I feel like I must sound like a broken record. It's heartbreaking to think I wasn't being clear. It doesn't matter at this point. Just move forward.
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I would have agreed to a counseling session with Steve long ago. We've already engaged with Willard and I don't see it as much different. I wasn't interested in doing the on-line program.
I'll write a summary if it comes to that, but I'm waiting to see how Remark responds to the recent posts on his thread. I'm certain Steve Harley is going to say the same thing the forum has said for 6-7 months, the same thing Willard said. Remark may just decide to save the money and throw in the towel. I know how he feels, he's told me for years, in both word and deed. But sure, I'll write a summary and join in on the call. Day- Please just talk with Steve. Sometimes hearing things a different way can cause it to sink in. I know someone personally who he helped. And if I were you, I would just stop reading Remark's posts. It tempts you to be judgmental/disrespectful of Remark. As for the online program.... you could learn a lot. But I think that your talk with Steve Harley might help you both to choose a path. Btw, he's not posting tonight -- not because he doesn't have internet access -- but because an old college friend was in town and he met up with him for a few hours.Nero's fiddle once again. (DJ)
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Quick question. Are posters "fighting" with Remark on his thread? If posters are fighting with Remark, it's irrelevant. We aren't married to him, have to live with him, and could care less about filling his Love Bank. Yes. And I took your question to insinuate that posters were fighting with you and you thought that they should have been fighting with him instead. If that was your insinuation, then please stop deflecting and start paying attention to the help/correction you are receiving. You need to stop lovebusting too, Day.
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If it wasn't, I would still suggest that you stop paying attention to his thread and reread your own.
Last edited by DidntQuit; 06/30/15 12:25 AM.
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I agree with you, but REMARK didn't tell me that sharing that information with him was an LB for him. You can only do what you know until you know differently. I'll ask Remark if he'd like me to refrain from sharing that information with him in the future. BTW, I used to do what you suggested, delivered my complaints short and sweet, even made a joke out of it when I said it. Do you get the impression that Remark responds to subtlety? If your spouse is not enthusiastic and if the conversation is not pleasant, safe and cheerful, it's a lovebuster. It's your responsibility to recognize this and to respond to any cues that your spouse is uncomfortable. You knew you were pursuing your own goals at the cost of his discomfort. It would however be silly to be 'subtle'. Being direct and to the point does not mean being unpleasant. Saying 'it bothers me when you...' is not subtle, nor does it take hours. Mocking someone's ability to respond to subtlety is even sillier. You could have said ' I don't want to be too subtle' which is a way of asking for clarification about your complaint style but instead you chose to be defensive and made a disrespectful judgement about Rs abilities. How does that do you any favours? I do agree with you he doesn't have the best record in the world at responding to complaints. But how does degrading your own complaints style into SDs and DJs help?
Last edited by indiegirl; 06/30/15 02:59 AM.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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I absolutely, positively do not trust him to go away and think about it. He doesn't. He often forgets the point/question during the three minutes I'm waiting for him to "formulate a response."
. I'm not saying he will respond to you or that you should trust him to do so. I'm saying that you have to give him the opportunity to do so without standing over him forcing him to parrot back your complaints. It's futile, because if he doesn't do it, you're unhappy and if he does....It's only parroting. It's set up for failure. If you want your husband to, say, include you on the bank account and provide you with financial support you don't do it with a gun. You ask him to do so, and if he doesn't do it - he doesn't do it. That's where you avoid a selfish demand. Maybe a respectful complaints will NOT work - but that's the point. They are able to refuse. You need him to go away and think about your complaints and respond willingly on his own. Maybe he will and maybe he won't, but enforced on the spot agreement and compliance is worth nothing to you.
Last edited by indiegirl; 06/30/15 03:10 AM.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Quick question. Are posters "fighting" with Remark on his thread? There's no love bank to consider, nor any need to share perspective equally. He's here to learn an absolute set of rules. So we won't be speaking carefully and considerately to him, no. If we were to phrase things in this way in a romantic relationship it would hurt horribly.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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[/quote]Agreed. Boundaries take personal resolve and commitment, which admittedly mine are weakening terribly. I was expressing my own personal fear. I've considered D'ing for that reason alone, and it's not off the table.[/quote]
No they don't. They are like fences, they just need to be there. The only person who can do that is you and you need to detail here how you will do it.
Your boundaries have next to nothing to do with how you feel. I say that as someone who had watertight boundaries while my h was having an emotional and physical affair with my best friend and calling me a liar for telling people. I had NO personal resolve or commitment, I was on the floor and basically incoherent.
I had no intention of either recovering my marriage or becoming someone's bargain basement deal because the price of getting my attention could have seen me lowballed.
I did not have male friends, acquainces nor did I go places where men could mingle with me.
You have boundaries by what you do, not how you feel.
Last edited by indiegirl; 06/30/15 04:25 AM.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Quick question. Are posters "fighting" with Remark on his thread? I think that this question is a bit underhand. It is an "innocent' query that is in fact trying to make a point, and that is that posters on Remark's thread are doing exactly what Prisca accused you of doing. When you questioned Remark about his attitudes to the family, and working on the condo etc, and pointed out how marginalised you felt by his behaviour, you were accused of fighting, and yet posters are saying the same things to Remark. Are they fighting? If so, what makes their fighting okay, and yours not? Isn't there some hypocrisy going on here, and in fact, aren't you being ganged up on and bullied, when you did not do anything wrong the other night? (It can't be wrong, if posters here can do the same thing to Remark.) I think that's your point.
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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Quick question. Are posters "fighting" with Remark on his thread? If posters are fighting with Remark, it's irrelevant. We aren't married to him, have to live with him, and could care less about filling his Love Bank. It DOES matter because it helps me to understand what the posts are referring to when I'm told that I'm fighting with him. I don't feel like I'm fighting. Our conversations look very much like his thread. If that's fighting, too, fine, I get it. But then I'd like to know what the alternative is. Obviously there's some reason why the forum is interacting with him in the manner that they are. If "it" (discussion? information sharing? explanation? clarification?) could be done differently, successfully, I'd like to see it, especially for those times when he isn't engaging with the forum and he/I have an issue.
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But sure, I'll write a summary and join in on the call. Day- Please just talk with Steve. Sometimes hearing things a different way can cause it to sink in. I know someone personally who he helped. I should talk with Steve because there's something about this family issue that hasn't sunk in for me? And if I were you, I would just stop reading Remark's posts. It tempts you to be judgmental/disrespectful of Remark. As for the online program.... you could learn a lot. But I think that your talk with Steve Harley might help you both to choose a path. Btw, he's not posting tonight -- not because he doesn't have internet access -- but because an old college friend was in town and he met up with him for a few hours.Nero's fiddle once again. (DJ) I don't have the book, Remark has it with him, but I just spent a few minutes looking up DJ's on the site. It reads, "In the final analysis, disrespectful judgments represent an effort to force our spouses to give us what we want in marriage." If you had indicated that the entire paragraph was a disrespectful judgment, I would understand because I want him to stop focusing on everything else and either address the marriage or agree it's over. Why is only the last few words the DJ? And if it really is the entire paragraph, should I not have posted it either?
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Ok I'm going to take a stab at this. It seems like you are trying to get Remark to agree with you over the past and/or your point of view. He will not. This is what needs to happen on your end. Make a list of fun activities that you would like to do and tell him to pick one. When you are out relationship talk is off the table. Period. His family is off the table for conversation. Period. Find a list of fun questions on the internet. I've tried to post some on the forum before and they get deleted, but just google it. They are things like if you could go anywhere in the world, where would you go? Then LISTEN to each other and ask questions to draw each other out about that topic. You need to do this at least 4 times a week. In addition to the fun questions you need to do something you both enjoy like Bowling or hiking or sailing or whatever fun activity you can both agree on.
If he Lb's, which will be much harder if you are just keeping it fun and light, just make a note of it and write it down for later.
Endless discussions of all the things he is doing wrong and how he will never change won't help things to change. You have to let go of it. Heck, to be honest, I would have no interest in spending time with you either. I'm not sure why he does when you are so incredibly negative ALL THE TIME. As the posters have said, when he commits a love buster you say this hurt me in a calm voice, then you put a smile on your face and continue to discuss pleasant things.
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