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Originally Posted by Bariguy
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Prisca
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I don't understand why, as a married couple, we cannot converse. If she complains that the car is dirty and wishes I would wash it, I just go and wash it even though I just finished doing just that?? That's what I'm hearing you say here. W thinks I'm disagreeing with you guys. I'm not. I'm trying to understand. Maybe I'm stupider than the average bear. Would saying ''Honey, I just finished doing that'' be trying to talk her out of her complaints or trying to persuade her to see things differently?
Is it okay that she thinks the car is dirty and needs cleaning even if you "finished doing just that?"

Well, is it?

What I meant was she was unaware that I just finished cleaning it. What I was saying was that presenting facts as a response to a complaint is NOT disagreeing or refusing to accept the complaint.

So is it okay that she thinks it's still dirty even though you already cleaned it?

Is it okay that she, like most women, would see you "presenting the facts" as being disrespectful?


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You were saying if she complains I am to act on it with no questions asked
Who said to do that? If someone said that, you should click notify on the post and tell the mods about it. We are only allowed to teach Marriage Builders here, and that is not part of the program.

Is it possible you were being told something deeper, and you missed the point because you are getting caught up in the details of the particular conversation you had with your wife? It really does seem like you are trying to set us all straight on the details instead of listening to what we are saying that holds true regardless of what she said vs. he said.


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Originally Posted by Bariguy
Originally Posted by Prisca
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I was repeating, during a discussion with W on POJA, what Dr. Harley said.
So, cut it out.

I'm sorry, cut what out? I wish you were here to have heard the conversation. I was NOT lecturing her or educating her, we were talking about POJA and how it works. She made statements, I made statements. Please ask her if you want further explanation.
Stop telling her what Dr. Harley said. Stop explaining how POJA works. She's a grown woman who can read. She doesn't need you telling her.

You may not call it educating her, but you are educating her. It is disrespectful. I don't need to hear the conversation to know that -- all I need to know is that you told her what Dr. Harley said.

Last edited by Prisca; 04/19/17 10:11 AM.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
For the one making them, disrespectful judgments are even more difficult to recognize than are selfish demands. That's why you must rely on the reaction of your spouse to determine whether or not a comment is disrespectful. When your spouse tells you that you are being disrespectful, how do you respond? Defensively ("I didn't mean to be disrespectful," or "I'm just telling you the truth!") or constructively ("I will try not to be disrespectful to you in the future")?

Fall in Love, Stay in Love, page 110
https://books.google.com/books?id=S...QKHTF5BNEQ6AEISDAH#v=onepage&f=false

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
Be sure to avoid arguing about whether or not you have been disrespectful. Remember, the one who feels you have been disrespectful has an important point to make and you should try to understand it. It's up to you to change your approach so that it is interpreted by your spouse as respectful persuasion.

Love Busters, page 88


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted by Prisca
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You were saying if she complains I am to act on it with no questions asked

Is it possible you were being told something deeper, and you missed the point because you are getting caught up in the details of the particular conversation you had with your wife? It really does seem like you are trying to set us all straight on the details instead of listening to what we are saying that holds true regardless of what she said vs. he said.

Yes, I'm caught up in the details. I think details and words are important because I believe it is important to understand and accept intent. I heard one person state he tries not to take offense where no offense is intended. I also accept that what W hears and feels is more important than my intent. Therefore I will not be responding to details anymore. I will try my best to look at MB principles only. I admit I'm a tough nut to crack. Thanks for your time and efforts.

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Originally Posted by Bariguy
I think details and words are important because I believe it is important to understand and accept intent.

Your wife cannot change how she feels about your words, no matter how well she understands your intent.

If certain phrases are a love buster it is up to you to understand that they are a love buster and filter them out of what you say, if you want your wife to be happy in your marriage.

We have helped dozens of people understand this and we would like to help you, too, but we need you to listen to us when we say something is important, rather than debate us and tell us why you think it is the other way around. You're not the one who knows how to have a good marriage, here - if you were, you wouldn't be here.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I heard one person state he tries not to take offense where no offense is intended.
That's cute on paper, but it doesn't work in marriage. Not if you want your wife to be in love with you.


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Originally Posted by Bariguy
I heard one person state he tries not to take offense where no offense is intended.

If the stuff you've heard before led to a good marriage, your wife wouldn't be unhappy, and you wouldn't be here.

Learn something new - learn Marriage Builders - it works!


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I heard one person state he tries not to take offense where no offense is intended.
If you wanted to live by that, it would be fine. Although I doubt you will have much success, because feelings cannot be controlled.

However, it would be disrespectful to expect your wife to follow that rule. Don't tell her how to feel. If you want her feelings to be different, act different.


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I believe the scenario Bariguy is trying to ask about is this:

The car was dirty and they both knew it.
BariGuy cleaned the car, but only he knew he had done that.
BariGirl was not looking at the car thinking it was still dirty, she was simply unaware that it had been cleaned and said something like "the car is dirty, would you clean it?"

Bariguy is very literal and is asking if saying "I just cleaned it" would be considered arguing, or simply letter her know it's taken care of.

I'm not an MB expert but I believe in that scenario that yes, of course you would inform your spouse that it was already done. Of course you would inform them cheerfully as opposed to in a martyred or exasperated tone - like "I already did!"

And if you want to make love bank deposits you might ask you spouse to check it out and let you know if you missed anything. And if you THINK you said "I just cleaned it" in a nice way but your spouse takes offense anyhow, accept that she found the way you said it disrespectful and don't argue with her about that. If she's used to being the subject of DJs and unwanted "education" from you, she's going to be hyper sensitive until she feels safe again. And that will take time.

Re the POJA/good will discussion - I suspect Bariguy, that you thought you were just discussing the concept in general, you had an epiphany - "If I had built more good will with you, you might be naturally enthusiastic about visiting my family, so I can see how over time the POJA will not only keep us from hurting each other with selfish demands, but due to the good will we will build, knowing something is important to each other might actually make us feel enthusiastic about doing something we wouldn't naturally want to do. But we will also know that if we aren't genuinely enthusiastic we won't do it and there will be no recriminations. Or if we do it once enthusiastically and don't like it, we know there will be no demands to do it again."

But based on the history of DJs and educating your wife, she understandably heard "if you had good will toward me you would have wanted to do it" which = "you don't care about me and what is important to me and I guess my life just sucks now..."

That's okay. Clarify and move on. But there's no need to argue with her or the forum about what you meant. No one thinks you're the devil. You're just a typical person who is becoming aware of how his wife feels when he says and does things that feel innocent/natural to him but horrible to her. You have the opportunity to change all that. Many men never get chance and never understand how they are hurting their wife. They just find she turns bitter and then one day she is gone.

Hang in there!

Originally Posted by Prisca
So is it okay that she thinks it's still dirty even though you already cleaned it?

Is it okay that she, like most women, would see you "presenting the facts" as being disrespectful?

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Anywife, you are missing what we are trying to teach Bariguy, which is more important than the details of the car story.

I know what Bariguy is asking. What I want is for him to actually answer the question: Is it okay that she thinks the car is still dirty even though you already cleaned it? And, is it okay that she felt disrespected?


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Thank you Prisca. I understand now.

I do not consider myself obtuse but I have been told by many people that I am too literal when reading emails & posts. And unnecessary misunderstandings seriously destabilize my mental health.

I did get your bigger point that you were asking if he considered something clean and she considered the same thing dirty, would that be okay with him?

But every time I read that question "is it okay that she think's it's dirty even though..." I couldn't get past the "that she thinks" part and I kept wanting to have an AO and shout: but she doesn't think it's dirty, she has no idea he just cleaned it! He was asking if it would be disrespectful to give her that information..."


Originally Posted by Prisca
Anywife, you are missing what we are trying to teach Bariguy, which is more important than the details of the car story.

I know what Bariguy is asking. What I want is for him to actually answer the question: Is it okay that she thinks the car is still dirty even though you already cleaned it? And, is it okay that she felt disrespected?

Last edited by AnyWife; 04/19/17 06:00 PM.
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Originally Posted by Prisca
Anywife, you are missing what we are trying to teach Bariguy, which is more important than the details of the car story.

I know what Bariguy is asking. What I want is for him to actually answer the question: Is it okay that she thinks the car is still dirty even though you already cleaned it? And, is it okay that she felt disrespected?

Of course it's ok in both cases.

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Originally Posted by Bariguy
Originally Posted by Prisca
Anywife, you are missing what we are trying to teach Bariguy, which is more important than the details of the car story.

I know what Bariguy is asking. What I want is for him to actually answer the question: Is it okay that she thinks the car is still dirty even though you already cleaned it? And, is it okay that she felt disrespected?

Of course it's ok in both cases.

Okay, so if you know she's upset because she feels disrespected, and that she also has a very different point of view from you, what would you do about that?


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Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Bariguy
Originally Posted by Prisca
Anywife, you are missing what we are trying to teach Bariguy, which is more important than the details of the car story.

I know what Bariguy is asking. What I want is for him to actually answer the question: Is it okay that she thinks the car is still dirty even though you already cleaned it? And, is it okay that she felt disrespected?

Of course it's ok in both cases.

Okay, so if you know she's upset because she feels disrespected, and that she also has a very different point of view from you, what would you do about that?

I would ask her, respectfully, to point out what areas I missed and I would redo them.

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So I'm back and in trouble We went through some great times and some rough times since my last post. This past weekend and this week are the roughest of all. W ended up so stressed that she is staying someplace since Sun. There were at least 3 unfortunate misunderstandings that lead to love busters and stress and more love busters and more stress. I did accuse her of using love busters more than once in a love busting way. In my hurt, I failed to consider her hurt. We are conversing by text and email. I want to paste an email exchange and have you critic my parts of it to let me know how I could have said it better. Here it is.

From her:

The plan was to lessen my stress. I left so that I did not have to endure you inflicting pain on me.
I hoped that you would love me enough that you would finally do all the things you have promised to do re MB. I hoped this would be a final wake up call.
I see that I was misguided to retain that last bit of hope.

From me:
Honey I do love you enough and more than enough. I am working on the things. It took me over half an hour just to get back onto the MB website last night as Bariguy. My password wouldn�t work. I had to email to get a new one and then I tried to post but either the web site or my iPad kept screwing up because it kept jumping to a different area and then would reload. Then I tried again to the same result. If you want me to take the day off tomorrow to go through all the rest of the posts and then start posting again I will gladly do that. Don�t ever doubt my love for you. It will always be there. I am not blaming you for the love busters I use. I know I have love busted you and I take full responsibility for them. I am sorry and like I said, I will be listening to our program on a weekly basis so I keep my assignment in the forefront. When you say you were misguided to retain that last bit of hope, please know that you certainly were and certainly are not misguided. It�s only that I don�t know where you are at. I don�t know what you are thinking. I will not say anything else about your decisions and just wait for you. I am sorry if what I did already say caused stress. It�s the last thing I want to do.

I Love you and always will

From her:
I don't know where you are at, in your head.
The email you sent me yesterday was good to read. But I still am struggling greatly. I feel in limbo, not knowing if anything is happening on your part.
If I am to have any hope at all, I need an action plan from you. I need communication about progress being made.

From me today:
I don�t know where I am in my head. I am very confused and concerned. I go from just wanting to hold you close and love you to wanting to set conditions for us getting back together. Sometime I am so sad and sometimes I am so mad. All I know is my heart is aching for you and the hurt you are carrying. I am also very hurt by your abuse of me but I am willing to endure it if it helps relieve your stress. I told you last evening that I am through most of the posts. My iPad was acting up again last night. I thought it was the internet due to DS18 (our 18 year old son) watching Netflix but I powered off the iPad and then it worked better. Between that, reading my previous posts on MB with the view of learning from them, and talking/listening to DS18, I did not get to post anything. DS18 is not in a good place about this. You will have to be patient with him. I have to send another email to Dr. Harley and I may be ready to post something tonight. That�s about all I have for now.

I Love you

From Her:
I don't know what to do with your anger. It sounds like you want to give up.

From me:
Where, oh where, do you see anger in there, W. There is only heart break for you, hurt for me, and confusion. There is no anger. I am not angry with you, W. I suppose when I said I was sometimes mad, you took as anger. It is hurt. If it fits you better to call it anger then that�s fine. I will never give up. I will always hope. All I have is hope.

Love you

From her:
If you would be open to it, the forum could help you with your emails so that I don't hear anger, blame and guilt tripping. It certainly doesn't "fit me better".

Hugs,

From me:

That�s where I can start then. I will post this and ask for their help. Thanks.

So there you have it. I need help getting the anger, blame and guilt tripping out of what I say to her. I thought she was asking how I was feeling - where I was at in my head.

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What happened that caused her to leave?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by Bariguy
I go from just wanting to hold you close and love you to wanting to set conditions for us getting back together. Sometime I am so sad and sometimes I am so mad. All I know is my heart is aching for you and the hurt you are carrying. I am also very hurt by your abuse of me but I am willing to endure it if it helps relieve your stress.

Your email does sound very angry and you even say:
Quote
Sometime I am so sad and sometimes I am so mad.
The underlined sentences are very concerning. Your wife is so stressed out that she felt the need the leave and you tell her that you are being "abused" and that you want to "set conditions" for her coming back. That is throwing gasoline on the fire and I am not sure how that is supposed to help.

Then when she points out it sounds angry, you deny it and say "if it fits you better call it anger." She is trying to tell you how you come across and you are slapping her for it.

Your emails don't seem to reflect any understanding or acknowledgement of the reasons that caused her to leave. Instead they are all about your "hurt."

What were the rough times?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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She asked where I was at in my head. That's what I responded to. I asked google to define anger. It said it is a strong feeling of annoyance, displeasure, or hostility. I always though anger was about hostility which I don't think I am. I am displeased for sure so then yes, I am angry. W accuses me of being the woman in our situation. Maybe I am. I am struggling severely with my feelings. Dr Harley said it might be a good idea for the time being to encourage W to teach me about her perspective and how I affect her, while I do what I can to adjust my behavior to accommodate that perspective. I will be working on that. I appreciate your help in pointing this out. I will not express any negative feelings from now on.

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Have you read this and listened to the radio clips in here?
Anger Management 101

What did you get from this?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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