Hi all - this is my first time posting on the forum - I'm desperate for some help and really hoping someone out there has an idea...!

My husband and I have been together for five years, during which we've always had trouble resolving conflicts/had really dramatic screaming matches when we disagree (sometimes only occasionally, sometimes often). We realised, when reading about Love Busters, that we are both guilty of all three of the anger-related/communication problems regularly (both of our families are a bit dysfunctional, and we've got awful problem solving/commuication skills in general).

So far we are doing a very good job catching ourselves and stopping when we make demands, disrespectful judgements and/or angry outbursts (yes, that's happened a couple of times). What I'm struggling with is what happens BEFORE we have a conversation about a problem.

My husband tends to sort of shut-down when he's upset with me BEFORE we have a conversation about it, and in that time he gets a bit passive aggressive toward me (I use that with a huge grain of salt b/c he's not MEAN/undermining, he just completely clams up/pretends everything is hunky dory when he is actually hurt/angry/upset). I get that people 'withdraw' when they are upset - but this is happening multiple times a day in response to things that happen in our 'day to day' life, like if I say something in an 'off' tone or if I seem 'not that happy' with a plan we've made. A lot of the time, it's a miscommunication, but we don't get a chance to sort it out because he doesn't tell me I've made him feel bad. He'll just sort of... not exactly give me the silent treatment, but he'll go from being warm and open to being cool and closed-off. If/when I pick up on it and ask him if something is bothering him, he tends to get upset that I'm asking him/deny being angry with me, but the feeling of 'distance' will remain (sometimes for days) until we discuss it openly.

When this stuff happens, he often tells me that he doesn't realise he is upset (this is his reason for not following the policy of radical honesty and telling me what's up).

So, basically, I don't know how to handle this, and it's driving me crazy. I feel like I'm getting 'punished' for doing things I have no idea I'm even doing, and that our day/connection/conversations keep getting torpedoed because it's impossible to work whatever it is out until sometimes hours have gone by. (The thing is, if he just got MAD at me and told me, or just told me without getting mad, or anything, I could apologise/we could straighten it out, and not waste time/love bank deposits feeling awful). Or is it me? Are my expectations off about this? Am I being unfair in expecting him to tell me what's going on? Do any of the guys out there (or gals) have trouble realising when you are angry/take it out on your spouse?

Hi, mtb, welcome to Marriage Builders. Glad to see that the information is helping you and that you've both been able to identify love busters as a problem and start to work on them.

Can you tell us what sort of problems your husband tends to clam up about?

Sometimes it's perfectly fine deferring negotiation about a problem until later (in fact you pretty much have to if somebody can't refrain from being demanding, disrespectful, or angry about it), but during that time I think you definitely need him to continue interacting with you, being pleasant and positive, and continuing to meet your emotional needs.

Hi markos, thank you so much for the welcome/thoughts.

We've both been trying to figure that one out - he doesn't have a problem telling me he disagrees with about something when we're having a conversation, or saying he's angry about something I said/did in the context of an already-ongoing discussion. But I think when I do/say things he thinks are unfair or disrespectful or critical OUTSIDE of a discussion, he clams up rather than beginning a conversation about it? (I think he doesn't want to be critical of ME? or...?)

Like, for instance, last week (before we started with MB, so pre-POJA) we were trying to decide whether or not to go on a hike, and he says, "Why don't we do what YOU want to do - you decide." Trying to be nice, right? But I had had a crazy day workwise and was mentally exhausted, and said, "would you mind deciding for us instead? I'm feeling so indecisive right now, if I decide we'll sit here (literally in the car) all afternoon, my brain feels like mush." So, we wound up going on the hike, but he was really withdrawn the entire time and neither one of us had a good time. I asked him if anything was wrong, and he said no (but it was extremely obvious that that wasn't true). When we got back to the car, he said, "I guess I felt bad/got angry because I was trying to do something nice for you and you turned it down?"

(I'm sure there were things we both did 'wrong' in that interaction - on my side, I can totally see how it would have been much nicer to say thank you, etc., for offering me the choice...)

On a more serious note, his parents live in another country and while we are mutually intelligible in a mixture of his native language and English (I am learning and they speak ok English, too), our conversations can be a bit difficult sometimes. I often feel really awkward talking to them on Skype (I enjoy it, but a lot of times, they ask questions and then interrupt as I try to answer them - with their own understanding of my answer, but after I've only said 5 words? As in: "What are you guys doing this weekend?" "Well, we're going to finish up some leftover work and then-" "Oh no! You guys should find time to relax on the weekend!" And I am thinking, in my head, "well if you'd let me get to the end of my sentence, I was going to say, "and then go for a hike/see friends/go to dinner.").

I find this a bit frustrating - predominantly b/c I feel annoyed, and I don't want to SOUND annoyed on the phone w/ them? (They're really nice people, it's just an annoying habit, I love them, etc). Anyway, so yesterday, we talked to his parents - I talked to them a little bit, but felt awkward and let him do most of the talking, and after we got off the phone he was withdrawn and not that nice. Just sort of, cool-ish? So, I ask if something's up, and he says nope, why would anything be up. 10 minutes went by (we were getting ready to go out to coffee), but the weird vibe was still there/he wasn't talking to me, so I asked him again, and he got sort of mad and sort of yelled, "I TOLD YOU I'M FINE, NOW COME ON, let's get going, move on."

(At this point, I know I'm being annoying, but don't have any idea what to do instead???)

So I said, "this doesn't feel very good, maybe we should wait to go for coffee until we're in a better frame of mind. How do you feel about taking 30 mins to settle down and then talking or hanging out?"

After I said that, he came and sat down and admitted he was upset, but didn't know why, and we hashed it out. (He'd felt like I was mad at his parents/acting a little awkward on the Skype call). I said a longer version of: "ah, ok, I'm sorry, and I understand, I WAS feeling annoyed/awkward. I'd really like to come up with a better way of interacting with them - can you tell me how you want me to handle it next time?"

Once we started HAVING the conversation, all the tension/bad feelings went away - but I am having trouble knowing what I should do in the interim? Like, I think that I'm being annoying/demanding when I ask him to tell me what's up more than once in a row - if he doesn't want to talk, I can't make him. But does anyone have any ideas about what I should be doing instead? Thank you!

mtb,

I would say the problem I see is your husband is still being a little bit demanding. If either of you offers the other something you need to be free to decline. It can be disappointing when your spouse rejects your offer, but the alternative is that they feel compelled or pressured to accept the offer, and in the long run that will be worse. It's important to be able to decline an offer without consequences.

Be aware that Dr. Harley doesn't classify "doing nothing" as a love buster. So if I offer to take my wife out to dinner as a gift to her, and she doesn't feel like it and declines, I might feel bad about it, but it isn't disrespectful to me. In that situation my negative feelings will go away as soon as we find an alternative we both feel enthusiastic about.

If the conversation is safe (meaning no angry outbursts) and it makes both of you feel better, you will gradually learn how to go that route. It takes time to change behaviour patterns especially those learnt in childhood.

Calmly say that it feels better for you to talk and then drop the subject. Do this each time but only do it once.

Another problem I see is it doesn't sound like you have the freedom to feel annoyed by his parents. It doesn't bode well when married people expect their spouse to accept the in-laws unconditionally. Can he talk to them about how they are making you uncomfortable?

In situations when he responds by being distant, he could be bothered but not recognize it, or not want to deal with it for a number of reasons. Rather than being concerned with the reasons though, what if you focused on respectfully making him aware that it hurts you?

The times when there are "screaming matches" are entirely different. Is he suggesting afterward that he didn't realize he was upset at times even when he was screaming?

I would suggest that when he seems distant that you approach him by email. Write something like, "When you talk to me in short sentences with a formal tone, saying only what is necessary, I feel sad and alone." That is a respectful complaint. When you ___, I feel ___. If you can be even more specific about his exact action that took place, do that. He will then have time to remember the situation, process his own thoughts and feelings and have an opportunity to address your concern through thinking rather than emotion.

As ridiculous as it may seem to email like this, it works. Over time, you will eventually get to where you can discuss it by text. Then in person. Then ultimately on the fly as situations happen, rather than planning a time for the discussions.

Congratulations on the progress with these three LBs! Those have to stop completely before you can make progress in meeting each other's needs.

Again, I highly recommend email for all negotiations for now. Azurite and I still have tough situations that come up when one of us will suggest, "How would you feel about handling this one by email?" (And we are glad when we do it.)

That sounds like he feels that you are not truly in enthusiastic agreement. If it is not a health or safety issue, you need to keep negotiating until you are both enthusiastic. If you are using a tone of voice that indicates capitulation to him, you can't control his reaction. However, you CAN be open and honest about why you are not in enthusiastic agreement. And you CAN suggest that the both of you keep coming up with creative ideas. If your brain is mush, DO NOTHING. Come back to it later.

Imagine your interests and his as two circles. You want to negotiate to create a lifestyle in the area where the two circles overlap. It is incredible to me how, when we operate out of our taker, this area of intersection looks so small and impossible. But it's not. When we capitulate, we effectively step out of our circle into the spouse's. And that won't work either. When you each operate out of both giver and taker at the same time and live in the intersecting area, over time that area grows much bigger than you ever thought it could be.

As a side note, when you express "When you ___ I feel ___" to him, avoid stating disrespectful judgments of his intent. Don't: "When you give me the silent treatment, I feel punished". That is two disrespectful judgments in one shot.

Let's assume that he is being distant to avoid being critical of you, as you stated in a later post. Your respectful complaint about his distant behavior will make it clear to him that he may be sparing you hurt in one area, but is simply trading it for hurting you in a different way. What matters is not his intent, but that he is in fact hurting you.

Respectful complaints are not only fair, but crucial to a good marriage. Now, if we are talking about badgering him about it, that would turn what could have been a respectful complaint into a selfish demand.

In the long run, what changed me from being distant toward Azurite was to recognize the massive love bank withdrawals I was making while in that mode. I could call it "withdrawing to avoid conflict" or "withdrawing to protect myself" all I wanted, but the bottom line is that it was hurting Azurite. Week after week of seeing it eating up any gains I made in meeting her needs was enough for me to change. (You are charting your UA time together and logging love busters, right?)

No, this is him either sacrificing, operating out of his giver or being passive/aggressive. The thing that will make you both happy is to negotiate.

It seems to me that there is in issue of goodwill here - that he judged your response to his offer out of an assumption of lack of goodwill from you toward him. Then he reacted emotionally to that. You can't control his reaction or assumption of lack of goodwill. You can eliminate LBs and meet his most important needs. Over time, this and his realization of how his reactions are costing him love units in your bank will turn it around.

An email at the first opportunity to specifically express his behavior that is causing you to feel hurt would have avoided all of that. Whether he responds or emails about his own respectful complaint is up to him.

The underlined is a selfish demand and needs to stop.

Very good! Thoughtful request. And you only suggested talking in general and didn't pressure him to talk about the problem.

YES. That. Just email. Wait. Very good!

Living Well - ok, that helps a lot (calmly saying it one time, then dropping it) - that's what I have been struggling with so much, because it's so frustrating when things feel 'fake' or 'tense,' and I have the *urge* to be demanding (and to make 'demanding' even worse, I probably feel somewhat self-righteous about it, deep down, which is obviously not the right direction to go in!). Anyway, thank you - also, for the reminder that it takes time!

Markos - Exactly! (He agrees btw, that he gets unfairly demanding/upset about how *I* feel - but AFTER the fact, when we are in the 'conversation' phase of the situation!).

It's even been difficult for *me* to tease that out (because I feel guilty, like everyone does, if I do something to hurt someone else's feelings - so when he feels hurt b/c of *my* feelings, I feel like I shouldn't be feeling them). Anyway, the point is, it's helpful to just be reminded of all of this!!!

Erastis - a.) I can't even tell you how heartening it is to hear this from someone who once WAS withdrawn himself - I've been googling 'withdrawn husband' and keep coming up with articles that say it will never ever get better! I mean, googling is basically always a bad idea, but it's very helpful to hear what helped w/ you and Azurite, is all.

b.) Re: the LBs/screaming, he'll start yelling about something I do (something which in normal circumstances wouldn't lead to yelling, even if annoying), and then keep yelling, and during the fight will say that he's only yelling b/c of xyz thing that I did. But then after the fact, when we are in 'conversation mode,' the real thing will become clearer. His dad was perpetually angry when he was growing up (still is, has a major freak out a few times each time we visit them and goes far far far below the belt with whoever happens to be around at the time), and his mom, sister and him generally don't mention things that bother them (to prevent a freak out, and also, I think, b/c if they did, they'd all have to admit how awful it was to be around his dad a lot of the time?). Point is, what you're saying about him not wanting to express disappointment/unhappy feelings and/or not knowing he has them right away makes a lot of sense.

c.) I really like the email suggestion - (clearer, less emotional, harder to 'badger,' etc). Would you and A. sit there emailing in the same room, at the same time? Like having a conversation, but in writing?

d.) Ah, ok, re: saying I felt "punished," by the "silent treatment," now that I look at it from a slightly calmer frame of mind it's (slightly) comical how mean/angry/disrespectful that sounds. At the time, I thought I sounded sooooo calm and kind (ahem, the 'temporary insanity' of anger, as Dr. Harley says, I guess?). I will practice, when very very calm, saying to myself, "when you stop talking to me, I feel lonely," or something along those lines.

e.) Everyone keeps saying that it takes time, and to keep doing my end, and that helps a lot, just knowing that it's not doomed if it takes a bit of time/patience (something that is so easy to see when not in the situation...). Yes, we are logging our UA time and avoiding LBs - but he seems less upset/withdrawn on days when we have less time together? Or, correction: days when we spend good quality UA time, he is either very very very happy, or very very very withdrawn (or happy and THEN withdrawn), which freaks me out a bit...

I agree with what Harley teaches of zero tolerance on angry outbursts. Yelling out of anger is an angry outburst. It has to stop 100%, and 100% of the time. It is completely up to your husband to make the choice to do this, regardless of your behavior to him. Nothing you do justifies an angry outburst on his part.

Any chance of getting your husband on this forum to give his perspective?

Sounds like he needs to work on anger management and learn how to express respectful complaints in a calm manner. Bottling up the complaints and sacrificing will not work. It would be nice to find out from him directly why he shuts down.

Lol. Yes. Sometimes even in the same room. Sometimes at the same time, depending on whether we could process what the other wrote in a calm manner with a logical mind. I think one of the most useful aspects of email is rereading what you wrote, at least once, before sending. First draft gets the thoughts into words. Subsequent drafts filter out the SD/DJ/AOs. Now that I think about it, my taker tended to dominate the first draft, then the giver would soften my email in subsequent drafts. Slowly, I learned to write out of both giver and taker at the same time.

I don't know if this will make sense, but I found that sometimes it was not enough to be in a mental state of calmness and goodwill. Even in that state of good intent, bad habits can creep in. In other words, good intent means little if you are still saying or doing things that offends your spouse. They are the final judge of whether what you are doing is hurting them. So it takes both - calming yourself and acting in goodwill and also learning new habits that make your spouse happy and don't LB them.

Yes, it definitely takes time. Like Harley says, sometimes a little time, sometimes a lot. Your husband must make the decision to recognize that his shutting down hurts you. Plain and simple. Your only part is to respectfully make that known to him.

If it helps any, you can relay to him that I would have never been caught participating in a forum such as this just several years ago. I can assure him it will be worth his time to come here and participate if he is interested in having a great marriage. There are many of us here that would love nothing more than to see you both have a great marriage together.

Have you read this and listened to all the radio clips in here? Anger Management 101