One thing I've noticed reading so many postings here is that it seems like most of the time it's the betrayed spouse that wants to make the marriage work and convince the wayward partner to come home and give up the OP. In my case, my betrayed H is ready to give up, despite my rallying to save the marriage.<P>It's been six weeks since he disovered my 6-month affair. We find it difficult to talk about our situation. I almost always start crying and he almost always gets angry. So for the past two days, we've been emailing each other. Silly, I know, but we can say what we think without it becoming confrontational.<P>Here's an excerpt from my H's last email to me today:<P>"When I picture the future I see myself with no one. I know I will never get married again and since that is the case there is no point in leading someone into a dead end relationship. I tell you that I have no problem staying in our house because I know this about myself. When I think the<BR>situation completely through, staying in the house eventually does not work either, because you want me to be closer to you than I was before. And you want me to start working towards that now. I can't imagine that right now, and I feel like I never will. Yes, let's just give up. That's easier and you seem to want some kind of resolution now. That's the only one I can give you right now. I'm growing weary of this whole situation and I feel like I just need some major<BR>changes in my life. <Job> is not one of those changes because we all need this check no matter how much we don't like it."<P>*****************<BR>Basically, he has said that he will continue to live here in this house (our first, we purchased just a year ago) for the sake of our son (two and a half years old) and for financial reasons. But he is very unwilling to try to take ANY steps toward being closer to me or repairing our marriage. He gets VERY angry when I push him toward these things. I don't feel like I have a choice but to push him, because if I allow us to just live together as roommates (sleeping separate, etc.) for the next several months, won't that make recovery that much harder, if not impossible??? I feel like every night we sleep apart, we just get further away from any chance of making things work.<P>He seems to think that doing anything positive with me (recreational or family activities, any kind of physical affection) would make me think he's forgiven me, something he reminds me frequently is not the case.<P>How much space and time do I give him? How can I try to meet his EN's if he won't let me?? The worst part of all of this is that when he makes it so hard, I'm tempted to just call OM and say "Take me out of this mess." Maybe this is what my H wants; sometimes I think he's testing how strong is my resolve to save our marriage or how much I really love him. When he gets like this is when I start thinking all the positive things about OM. No, I'm not proud of that, but it's the truth.<P>I need any advice or words that will strengthen my resolve and keep me doing the right things, whatever they are. I really do love him. I'm just so tired of being turned away...

Yesterday it was 6 weeks ago that I found out about my H's A. Our situation sounds very similar to yours minus the child. He wants to work it out and he is willing to go to couseling with me, but I am the one who is having the hard time with it all. I just can't seem to get over the anger of what happened. I told my H so many times that I just wanted him to move out because I just didn't want to see him anymore. But, when he finally started looking around for other places, I became frantic that I had made the wrong decision. I want it to work, but I just don't know how right now. <P>I hope and pray that with time I will be able to begin to work together with my husband to rebuild our marriage. I think in a way I am/was testing him as to how much he wants/wanted this marriage to work - just like you wrote. I keep pushing him to find out if at some point he will give up. I do know that deep down inside it is important to me that he continues to try and continues to work hard. <BR>I would encourage you to do the same. I am at the six week mark too...it is still very fresh in my mind. Please give it time and continue to love your husband and work at things. I know how important it is to me. <P>My husband had to leave the country last week to attend his father's funeral (we live overseas). I was shocked by my reaction because even though I have so much anger toward him, when this sudden event happened all I wanted to do was be there for him and love him.

Calla-<P>One word, <B>PATIENCE</B>. I figure if I keep saying it enough I learn to practice it too. Your H is too hurt to deal with the situation right now...emotions are too high. In that email he sent he's outlining what he needs...<B>EMOTIONAL SPACE</B>. It has only been 6 weeks.<P>Consider yourself lucky that you are able to work on yourself while he is around to see it. I have to work at it from as thousand miles away so imagine how much I want to push...and that's the other thing...don't <B>PUSH</B>. I make that mistake all the time and I'm finally learning. I know one thing for sure, if you push, that will only serve to push him further away.<P>I'll credit WorthATry with the next suggestion...don't have high (or any) expectations at this point. Just flow...be a good person...don't LB...and don't talk to the OM if you're serious about working things out with your H.<P>Post often if you need to and read all you can.<P>dd<BR>

How I wish my wife would think like you. But anyway, on to you. I think that you should just Plan A as best as you can. He is hurt and not receptive to the concept of restoring your marriage, as you know.<P>I'm not experienced in this type of arrangement, but it seems Plan A would apply to your case as well as mine or anyone elses.<P>Be your best in all ways possible, and if he won't let you meet his needs, just meet those you can, and don't LB.<P>The best advice is probably to talk to Steve.<P>What about leaving SAA around the house, and HN/HN as well. Would he ever pick them up out of curiosity? Would he ever come to this site to see that people do recover, despite being incredibly hurt? There are people here that recovered that would give you their email addresses, if he wanted to talk to anyone.<P>Notice the use of "right now" in your Hs words. To me, that is leaving the door open. It is a small clue.<P>Good luck.

thanks so much guys!<P>DT, I think my H feels like you do, wavering between just wanting to be away from me and not wanting to take steps to separate. A couple of weeks ago he informed me that he was getting an apartment, but then changed his mind a few days later. Part of me wondered if that was really indecision, or just somethign he did to hurt me. Question for you: do you find yourself wanting to "get even" with your husband or punish him for the affair? Sometimes I feel that's what my H is doing. Thanks for your insight from the other side...and best of luck for you in your marriage. From a wayward spouse who's very sorry, I hope you can give your husband a chance and that your marriage can recover and be better than ever.<P>dd, thanks for the reminder on PATIENCE. God knows I'm not and never have been a patient person. I guess six weeks isn't really a long time for him to deal with this. But then I read all the postings from BS's who instead of withdrawing like my H, try really hard to reconnect and get close to their spouse. And then I start wanting my H to be that way. I guess the tough thing is deciding how MUCH time to give him. If we're still in the same place three months from now, do I give up? Six months from now? How long do I wait for him to try? Thanks for your input.<P>rick, you think like I do! I, too, noticed his use of "for now" several times in the emails, and have found a shred of hope in that fact. That someone else sees that too makes me even more hopeful. I have been thinking of setting up some phone counseling with one of the Harleys (as you suggested), and I have purchased and read SAA. I asked H to read it, and he has agreed, but I notice when I peek at the book that he hasn't read past page 73, where it's been for the past two weeks. And you're right, I will continue to try and work on myself. Thanks for the advice...<P>Calla<P>

Calla,<P>It has only been 6 weeks. It will take a long time for either of you to fully recover. I would suggest that you NOT work on the marriage. But rather work on the things you can change, yourself. Work on being pleasant, and gradually becoming his friend again.<P>It seems to me that is the first step. You have done a lot of damage and with a child that young there is a long way to go. Right now he sounds very depressed and sees no hope for the marriage or as you can tell his future. He isn't suicidal but I'll bet that alternative wouldn't scare him right now. I suspect that he feels he has little worth to you but the paycheck.<P>Interesting, isn't it? He is the one that feels worthless. He knows he has failed you in many ways, but has no confidence that he can make enough of a difference for you not to do this again.<P>How will he learn? Your patience, your efforts, and you listening to him. He will want to talk, especially as he goes through and finishes the anger phase.<P>Calla, in reality many marriages are simply ended with the discovery of an affair. What you see here is the alternative to that. Your H doesn't see the alternative right now, but with time and patience you can show him.<P>It will be hard on you, as you sound as if you are going through some withdrawal. It will be hard on him, because of his loss of self-esteem and depression. BUT if you read here, and begin to apply some of the approaches suggested here, the marriage can be saved. You just cannot expect him to work on it right now, he feels too bad for that.<P>Do talk with Steve H. I am sure he can offer you a plan of attack that will give you the greatest chance. Just recall you do have a chance, and that is more than many people here get whether they are WS or BS.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Calla,<BR>Regarding your question of trying to 'get back' at my husband. I think that is part of it although I may not have been consciouly thinking 'I want to hurt you' - but I think that is what I was doing. I wanted him to hurt and feel as much pain as I did. In my eyes, he needed be to remorseful for what he did and I thought that maybe he would ask me to stay - that would have made me feel better. Instead he said, 'I will do whatever it takes and if that means moving out, then I will do that.'<BR>DT

JL,<BR>thanks for your words of encouragement. Everyone seems to be saying for me to just leave my husband alone right now and not pressure him, just give him space and try to be friendly.<P>I'm not sure what you meant about your comment "with a child that young, you have a long way to go?" As for my H being suicidal, well...he DOES talk about it. I'm very worried about it and have talked to our counselor about it. I am still going to counseling but my H doesn't want to anymore, so I havent' pushed the issue.<P>In the several months (almost a year, actually) before my affair began, my H was becoming more and more withdrawn and depressed, and our relationship really went to h*ll. I still don't fully understand what all that depression was about, but he discovered my A before he had made much progress in getting over his own depression. So of course, his despair is that much worse now.<P>Nobody seems able to answer my question about time, and how much time should I just wait around and not push things? I bet people will say I'll "just know" when to give up. But I don't feel like I know anything anymore. I feel like my H would be able to just live with me indefinitely as friends or roommates or whatever it is that we are. It feels like forever since I've had a real husband, a real mate. I'm afraid we'll fall into this familiar (if not comfortable) routine and he'll never want to work with me to get this thing back on track. I'll just sit around waiting...and waiting...<P>I keep looking at it like falling off a horse: if you don't get back on right away, your fear will just get bigger and you might never do it. But I'll take the advice and back off. there's just a part of me that's really scared to do it. But I'll try...'cause what do I have to lose?<P>thanks again for your advice, everything helps.<P>calla

Calla,<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Nobody seems able to answer my question about time, and how much time should I just wait around and not push things? ...It feels like...I'm afraid we'll ...<P>I keep looking at it like falling off a horse: if you don't get back on right away, your fear will just get bigger...part of me that's really scared to do it. But I'll try...'cause what do I have to lose?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Sorry for editing so much but I'll make a point later. As for your question on "How long?" <P>I'll answer it just like you said. You'll know. It's different for everyone and I don't think anyone can tell you what's right for you.<P>As I said before, you are like me...I want a decision today, let's get it over with, if I wait too long I've screwed everything up...and yeah, it's scary if you can't predict or you can't call the shots or you don't have control. But you need to just let it go and flow (I sound really earthy tonight). Work on yourself...you will never be able to make your H see anything. He has to see it on his own. So just work on yourself <P>I told you about PATIENCE...I forgot about <B>FAITH</B>. Define faith however you want but understand that there is something greater at work. So try not to get completely hung up on doing everything or doing everything the right way. There is no magic formula...but if you find one let me know.<P>Unfortunately, other people generally do not have our same agenda...but damn I wish everyone would do exactly what I want them to do when I want them to do it. Life would be so much easier.<P>dd<p>[This message has been edited by dumbdumb (edited June 07, 2001).]

<<"But then I read all the postings from BS's who instead of withdrawing like my H, try really hard to reconnect and get close to their spouse. ">><P>Don't think that happenes all the time the moment of discovery. I'm almost 4 months from d-Day and the last month has been seeing progress in that area. Getting on anti-depressants is what it took for me to finally be able to open up. You might want to try to gently persuade H to try them.<P>I can tell you from his point of view he is right now going through the worst pain of his married life. It's real easy to think it will never feel better when you hurt so much.<P>I felt so much FEAR. FEAR with capital leters because it barely describes it. I would shake inside if I started to feel to vulnerable. I pushed my H away plenty of times. I would have flipped if he had actually backed away. <P>I wanted/needed reassurance lots and lots of reassurance that he was for real and not going to leave or do this again. Still need it but I'm learning to be able to focus on his needs to gradually as time passes and my need for reassurance is less.<P>I remember being so screaming crying mad, shaking because of something he said that triggered me at a time I felt open and vulnerable. I screamed at him to get away from me, said awful things I barely remember because I was just in so much pain. You know what I wanted inside? I wanted him to follow me, put his arms around me and tell me he wouldn't leave ever and be there for me, kiss my neck. I mean it's illogical, but who says emotions are logical.<P>The pain, the betrayal, the LIES, they are just the worst thing I can imagine dealing with from someone you have loved and trusted so much. The lies are far harder to get over than the sex believe me. And it makes your job that much harder, but it is your job right now.<P>He has a right to be angry. If you feel punished, you deserve it. If he is pushing you away, sorry i think backing off is bad advice. Keep giving him that reassuance he needs. For as long as he needs it. Don't push the sex though. Imagine mental movies going on in his head, did she do this with him? Was he better than me at this? This is a big deal to guys, it was a big deal to me, but it's worse for guys from what I've read.<P>It helped me alot that my H could honestly tell me how much better I am than she was. Whatever the case may be for you though the biggest thing is honesty of the radical type. He is double and triple checking everything you say right now for honesty. Screw the fear of hurting him more if he asks you anything about the affair be completely honest and consistent. He needs it.<P>Get eady and get committed and don't stop reassuring him that you are for real for as long as it takes if you want your marriage back. Do try to get him on anti-depressants, alot of us BS's are on them, they help.<P>We wouldnt be on them if this was an easy trip. Have some sympathy for the pain he is in.<P>

Dear Calla,<P>Your H is still in shock. I was in shock for about 8 weeks. I functioned out of neccesity but just barely. I received no support from my H during that time. <P>You e-mail your H with messages, we did the same thing. It was easier for me to communicate without the emotional shrills. My H is a major conflict avoider (he was the WS). <P>I also chose to send periodic posts from here to H via e-mail. They did help. We had 1 phone counseling session and even though he did not read the books he did not object to them. I even shared a few of the comments. I believe he peeked into them a little. Small progress but vital to recovery. It took about 4 months from that point until now. We are in our 5th week of his being home. Recovery is a hard word for me to say. I still feel like the battered wife (not physically, emotionally and mentally).<P>Also, invite you H here. There is a lot of support for the BS.. There are several couples that post here not all end up together but most do. It is still healing for all who come here. Yes, it takes effort and he does not have to post if he does not want to. There are many guys who are the BS and can help him appreciate he has an advantage since you want to work with him. You both need to learn how to meet each others needs. Have you read the His Needs/Her Needs book? Very enlightening. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<P><BR>

Calla,<P>I am not telling you to back off. I am telling you to quit trying to "fix" the marriage. There is a difference in my mind. I'll do my best to explain. In attempts to force him to address marriage issues from both sides you are trying to "fix" the marriage.<P>However, sitting him down and talking about how you feel about yourself. How you feel about the marriage. How you feel about his depression. Telling him you love him. How you regret what you have done. You are NOT "fixing" the marriage. It is a discussion maybe even a monologue, but he isn't forced to take action. But, he is getting information from you. The channels are opening.<P>The only place I would suggest being more forceful is with the depression. However, you must be very careful here. Why? Many men feel, and actually are right, that if they are diagnosed with depression it can hurt their job advancement or even end their job. Depending on what your H does. He probably does intertain suicidal thoughts, he doesn't see anything to live for. That is probably why he ceased counseling. However, maybe you could suggest two things two him: 1. regular exercise (preferably with you) 2. Taking something such as St. John's Wort. I have heard that it does sometimes work.<P>Really he needs a good check up and probably meds. You could even approach it as a purely functional decision. Whether the marriage makes it or not, he needs to become 100% and meds might get him there. After all he probably takes aspirin if he has a headache. He may take meds if something hurts in his body. Well, in all cases you are playing with body chemistry and yes even brain chemistry. Why not continue and really improve? <P>Is there a clergyman he could talk with? Someone he trusts?<P>Please consider all of this. I suspect something that I don't feel you really understand. He depended on you far more than you realize. I think it was especially true when he became depressed before your A. It has been my observation that men often show dependence by proximity rather than deeds. For instance he may come home and simply watch TV while you are home, rather than go to a meeting, out with the boys, church, whatever. He needs to be near you.<P>You of course just saw a "lump" watching TV and apparently not needing anything. Not your fault, you wouldn't know, but I think he was more dependent on you than you think and he is pretty rudderless right now.<P>Just some thoughts.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

calla, you asked:<P>" ... do you find yourself wanting to "get even" with your husband or punish him for the affair?"<P>Oh, yes. Many times I've imagined myself doing it. I've fantasized about doing it. God knows there are enough slutty, sleazy men out there that I could sleep with just to get even, married and single. In this town? Spit and hit ten. But I choose not to do that to *myself.* I've come too close to these kinds of men, and they are s-c-u-m. Any man who would sleep with a married woman is scum. Period.<P>calla, six months is *nothing,* hon. In the eyes of a BS, it is but the blinking of an eye. It's been almost a year since my H's EMR officially ended (to my mind, which was the last time he saw her in person). However, since she continued to call him until this Christmas, that kept it alive and kicking in my mind. As Steve Harley says, any contact with/from the XOP sets the clock back to zero. So I'm about six months into recovery - where your H is right now. <P>There are many days when I feel as he does. I'm just tired of trying to make things fit. I'm tired of elucidating my ENs and not having them met, or being told, "No, I will not do that for you." A lot of the time I think I'd feel better if I could just live alone, so that way I wouldn't be so hurt when my most important needs were not being met. I wouldn't have to dwell on my H's private P.O. box or his cell phone number, which he refuses to change. I could live in peace. And maybe someday - one day - I would love again and live again. Maybe. But that's taking the easy way out. <P>How you *can* win your H back? Contrition. Utter and complete contrition. Show him your misery. Show him that you think that you are a bad person. Admit 100 percent blame for everything concerning the EMR. What really helps: diss the XOM. Do not ever make him out to be the "hero" in your eyes. Make him the ENEMY! Let your H know that you think that XOM is the enemy! Because in reality, that's what he is - the greatest enemy to your marriage. <P>If my H had shown remorse, if he had repeatedly kicked himself over and over and over and done the things that *I* would have done had I been in his shoes, I could have more faith in him. <P>Never stop apologizing. Apologize every day, if you have to. Apologize more than one every day - that is even better. Show complete and utter contrition. Let your H know that *you* should be the one wearing the hairshirt for this misdeed. He needs to be pampered and coddled, his ego and self-esteem rebuilt; he needs to know that this is not a reflection of him as a person, or of any of his inadequacies. Meet his needs first. Don't worry about your own right now. Once his needs are met, he will then again feel like meeting your needs. Ask him what he needs from you, and give it to him. Whatever he asks, do it. Do ANYTHING. Nothing a betrayed spouse asks you to do is too much, short of illegal acts or self-harm.<P>What's important is ... you must also believe this too. You must believe that the OM is the enemy and that you are completely to blame. Because if you don't ... then that would explain why he feels the way he does.<P>good luck - never stop saying, "I'm sorry."<P>MelissaM<P>

JL,<BR>Once again, many thanks for your thoughts. My H is already on antidepressant meds. Has been since a couple weeks before D-day. What you said about talking to him really makes sense. Even though he is too withdrawn to say much to me at this point, he does listen attentively to everything I have to say. there are some things I would like to talk about, but I think it might be a bad idea, I don't know. I don't want him to hurt any worse, but i would like to talk about some details of the A that would show him that the OM is not so superior to him, as he may fear. I also understand what you said about how men view depression. they definitely do see it as some kind of personal weakness, a reflection of their manhood. I know this is a difficult thing for my H.<P>ScaredinNY, WOW, what great insight into what goes through a BS's mind and heart. My H has said many times there is no way I can understand the pain he is going through. But your words have provided a window. I can see that the pain and confusion is a "whole body experience." And that conflicting emotions become the norm.<P>Orchid, good idea about sharing posts. I will start including them in my emails to my H. <P>dd, right on about FAITH. I tend to forget about faith these days. It seems to fly right out the window. But you are very right, and I'll just try to keep "flowing" as you put it, (that made me smile)<P>belldandy, I agree with many of the things you said about showign my H how sorry I am and trying to meet his needs. But one thing you said really upset me. You said that I should "show him that I think I am a BAD PERSON." As a betrayed spouse, I'm sure you feel a hearty measure of bitterness toward all spouses you have strayed. But if I'm really a BAD PERSON, why would my H want to stay with me???? I prefer to think of myself as a GOOD person who made a MISTAKE. You may not realize it, but WS's go through terrible feelings of guilt and sorrow and regret. Especially if we have gone against our own personal moral values to meet our emotional needs, at the expense of our spouse. Most of us already feel very badly about ourselves, and self-esteem suffers. The last thing I want to do is try and convince myself I'm a bad, worthless person that my husband wouldn't want to stay with. Can you understand my point of view?

Calla 30<P>It has been just 6 weeks. Please imagine that you just found out 6 weeks ago that your husband has been in a sexual affair with an very attractive female co-worker. Do you know what you would feel? You would feel that your marriage which was supposed to provide you with love and safety has been totally smashed. Do you think after 6 weeks you would say <BR>"O.K Honey I am willing to forgive you for cheating on me so lets work on the marriage and become intimate again". You said that your husband told you that you have no idea the pain that you have caused him. It is clear from your messages that you still have no idea the crushing blow you have dealt him. The fact that you could say that you still think of calling the OM sometimes to take you away from the mess you created by having this affair indicates that you have a very long way to go to understand the grief your husband feels. Please try to imagine if the roles were reversed and imagine your husband have sex with other woman and try to imagine how you and your self-esteem would feel.<BR>I only wish that you could go inside your husband's head and <BR>understand and I guarantee that you would not be complaining <BR>it has only been 6 weeks and your husband is still unhappy.<BR>Maybe you would be better off with the OM since you seem to be quite impatient and want a quick fix to something that will take a great deal of time to heal.

Calla,<P>I thought of something else that goes along the lines of BryanP's post and it's something my W has beat into my head. Everytime you push him,it's like saying..."Hey honey, your feelings don't matter and I'm sick of you being hurt by what I've done and I'm tired of taking responsibility for my actions." That's kind of how she puts it when I have pushed in the past.<P>Like I said before, PATIENCE and waiting for time to pass are very important characteristics to master. And they are a necessary ingredient. My counselor said to me yesterday, "W already knows where you stand...do you think for a second, if you backed off, she would think that you don't care about the relationship anymore?" It's a good point. Time is your friend.<P>dd<P>dd<p>[This message has been edited by dumbdumb (edited June 09, 2001).]

This is a P.S.<BR>I have not read your complete story but a big factor in having the betrayed spouse reconnect is whether or not you told him about the affair or he found out about it on his own. If he found out about it on his own then he may believe that the affair and the lying and cheating simply would have continued and only stopped because you were caught. He will then say to himself how could I ever possible believe anything that she tells me since she was so good at lying.<BR>Hopefully this is not your situation but if it is it is a huge problem to overcome to regain the trust again.