There was a post by sad_n_lonely in one of the other threads that caught my eye:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR>BS and this board often (and probably correctly) assume A are about unmet needs and just need to be fixed. Sometimes it is far more serious than that (at least the ws thinks so), and they truly want to "escape", not cause they hate anyone, but cause they feel they are literally dieing (emotionally). For various reasons they are unable to just..."leave", and along the way an A happens. Whether the affair works out or not (and may not obviously like any relationship), it has the effect of opening the door, and giving the ws the strength of will to actually leave. That is why even if the A is ended, the ws will still hang on to the notion of leaveing, trying to gain distance from what they feel is a submissive, controlling relationship. IMO the best approach is never to challenge this kind of ws directly, it only makes us more sure we are right. Indeed we may be right (we think for a variety of psychologically legitimate reasons), and will leave, and will divorce, but that takes time, and mostly this kind of ws is generally a caring, ethical sort of person. If we are to be persuaded we are somehow confused and mistaken, it is best done by not doing the very things that make us want to leave....trying to control our emotions, and/or our behaviour. You can only make yourself as desireable as possible (within reason) and let the ws do whatever they think best....but then again, maybe I don't know anything...but I can tell you everytime I am told I am wrong, confused, unfair, and so forth, I dig my heels in and push away.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I wonder if my H is going through something similar. I know all of his problems are within himself and he is trying to deal with them. He is up/down quite frequently, he claims only EA w/ kissing, and is just trying to figure out what it is he wants. He left, is out of the house and I am in plan B (because he was originally with OW but now says it's stopped until he figures things out). So I'm wondering how much of sad_n_lonely's post may apply to my H. He now says that he wanted to leave many times before and OW just gave him the ability to do it. I don't know if this is fog-talk or truth since I only heard it after OW came into the picture...<P>Anyone have success stories where their H/W was in this category? What did you do? Is there hope for people in these situations (as opposed to just not meeting EN's)? I actually think I was meeting just about all my H's EN's (he even admits it and filled out the questionnaire as if this was so), we had seemingly a perfect relationship. Tons of communication, great friendship, we were very close. Something was just always MISSING for him. He said many times that he liked his life and I was not the cause of his problems (now the story changes, but I think that is fog).<P>He's now trying to find himself and actually thinking about "us", which is good, but my C says he thinks my H is going to take a hike and run away for good (move to another state and start over), so be prepared.<P>Why do WS want to escape so bad? What is the driving force? How do you help, or do you just leave them alone and let them make that decision (like I'm trying to do)?

I don't know - I have often thought the same thing of my WH. He told me that when he was on vacation back in England, he discovered that he had outgrown all his old friends, disliked seeing his family again and thoroughly hated being back there. He says he never wants to go back to England again! He says that he cares about me, but just feels that it's time to 'move on'. <P>Now, I think a lot of this is depression - he can't be bothered with his hobbies anymore, has lost interest in many things that he used to enjoy - classic symptoms. Problem is, he won't accept that it could be depression and therefore won't get any help for it. <P>The symptoms of depression, an Affair, or just wanting to move on are so similar that I can't define which it is - may be a combination! All I know is that for my own sake, I have to believe that it's the 'fog' of an affair, plus depression that is making him think like this. That's the only way I can hold on for him.<P>hugs, Paint.

Let me just say I think SNL is working on a solid reason to justify his affair.<P>However, he's entitled to his opinion...<p>[This message has been edited by [H] (edited June 19, 2001).]

Hi HbH,<P>Trying to find one's self. Need to understand how I really feel. Don't want to be married anymore, etc.<P>Yes I have heard all this and more. My H had his heart and spirit broken about 10 months before we started dating. It never really healed. This robbed us from ever really having a happy marriage. H allowed himself to stay in that mode (something I recently learned) and now I am angry for that. However, it does not justify the A. OW has no clue she is a very selfish woman. She just wants what she wants. <P>There was a post on my last thread about co-dependancy. While I don't fully understand the topic, it was very interesting. We may all see a bit of ourselves in this co-dependancy issue. How we choose to react to it is the key. <P>There is a comparision between real love and toxic love. <P>Here is the quote from 'juststartingover':<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by juststartingover:<BR><B>Here are 4 good URLs. The two I found most useful are the first two. The second has a table comparing real love with what the author calls "toxic love" that is really interesting.<BR> <A HREF="http://tickittees.addr.com/~sariaa/codep-rl/codep-rl.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://tickittees.addr.com/~sariaa/codep-rl/codep-rl.htm</A> <A HREF="http://www.silcom.com/~joy2meu/joy_13.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.silcom.com/~joy2meu/joy_13.htm</A> <A HREF="http://www.aliveandwellnews.com/a/codependency/signs_and_symptoms_of_codependen.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.aliveandwellnews.com/a/codependency/signs_and_symptoms_of_codependen.htm</A> <A HREF="http://www.excite.com/relationships/singles/issues_and_problems/codependency/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.excite.com/relationships/singles/issues_and_problems/codependency/</A> <P>I shall be holding you in my thoughts and prayers.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Hope this helps shed some light. There is no easy answer but there always is some direction. <P>Take Care, <BR>L.<P><BR>

Hi guys. Thanks for the replies.<P><H>, I'm not so sure sad-n-lonely was trying to justify his affair. Maybe. Even if what he says is true, it still does not justify an affair, it does not make it any better or easier to accept. My H did try this one on some of our friends as well. Tried to make his affair "right" because there were issues and he wanted to leave but never had the balls to do it. It doesn't change anything or make me feel any sympathy towards the WS... But maybe that's just me.<P>Anywho, I think there is some merit to what sad was saying. At least from the WS's perspective. These are the things my H says he feels. Whether or not it is true fog or something deeper, I don't know. That's why I was curious if others had dealt with this "deeper" problem and how they faired. Or is this just a really bad case of "the fog". I don't know - that's why I ask.<P>Orchid - thanks for the post. Very interesting stuff here. It sort of made me sad though because the love I had for my H tended to fall 50/50 between true love and infatuation. I don't see how I can be infatuated with someone for 10 years, but maybe. For instance, I lived for him and the kids and we didn't have many family/friends that we hung with, just us - that's supposedly unhealthy love, and some other things... Makes me wonder. It gave me a good perspective on some things I should change about myself in order to wander over to the "true love" category. It was just disturbing that's all... <P>Did anyone else not do so well in these categories?<P>

<"I'm not so sure sad-n-lonely was trying to justify his affair."><P>LMAO. Sorry, I'll stop laughing now. The answer is a resounding YES. He is trying to use MB priciples or anything else he can grab onto to do it to. Believe me, I had a long chat with his wife, I heard the other side of the story too. That is my definite opinion on that subject based on hearing both sides.<P>