I left the letter (re: "Just a Friend"-Long Vent) for my H before going to bed last night. I could use some feedback on his note/response:<P>------------------------<P>"I'm sorry that this is still eating at you. I'll say again - Nothing ever happened, nothing ever would. I thought we had a strong enough relationship that you would believe and trust me when I say something as important as this.<P>What do you do when you're at work? You ***** about work and bad experiences. It's just conversation.<P>I really thought I was being open with you about the whole thing. I'm sorry if I made you suspect otherwise. I love you and only you and that's all I need and want - you.<P>When I try to talk to you about this it makes me sound as if I'm defending myself, which makes you even more suspicious. I have nothing to defend or hide.<P>I don't think I led her on in any way, but maybe I did and didn't see it. She and I have never acted or given the impression of anything going on towards one another.<P>Bottom line is you're going to have to trust me or have your doubts. I'm really trying to be honest with you about this.<P>We can talk more about this when I get home from work."<P>------------------------<P>My interpretation of his response is sadly, that he still doesn't understand that this relationship is inappropriate. I do believe he is sincere when he says he is sorry. But he makes no mention of changing or ending his friendship with her. So this sets the stage for me to be the bad guy here. I get the impression that if I insist that he ends this friendship, it will create resentment on his part. Swell....either way, I lose.<P>Any advice kids? Do I continue to try and convince him that this is wrong? Or do I simply put my foot down and hope we can work through the bad feelings that result?<P>Thanks in advance for your help.<P>-G-<P>

Bringing up on the board. Don't want to get lost. <P>I have until H gets home from work to try and figure out what's next. Feeling a little desperate right now....hope you'all can understand.

gardner,<BR>Your H is missing the point!! If you believe you can have a calm, rational discussion with him without letting your emotions get the best of you, you need to do that when he gets home.<P>You need to bring up the issues about the cards, notes, hugs and other very obvious displays of closeness and affection between the two of them. Tell him these are simply not acceptable, and that you are completely uncomfortable and threatened by this relationship.<P>Since he did not directly address the question of ending that relationship or at the very least, limiting it and including you in it, you will have to ask him again. "How can we resolve this?" "How can we establish rules for this relationship that make me feel safe and respected?" If you would feel more comfortable if your H included you when he is around this woman, then maybe that would be a good compromise. But I'll be honest here, it seems like ending the relationship would be the safest thing to do.<P>What your H isn't seeing right now is that even if the relationship is not a physical affair, it is still a relationship that pulls his emotions, energy and affection away from you. And, as such, would be considered an emotional affair.<P>I think the best thing you can do is try very hard not to be angry and defensive (even though I'm sure you must feel this way, I know I would) and just repeat yourself until he gets it: "I REALLY WANT YOU TO CHANGE OR END THE RELATIONSHIP WITH _____. I HOPE THAT YOU VALUE OUR MARRIAGE ENOUGH THAT YOU WILL UNDERSTAND MY FEELINGS AND MAKE THE CHANGES I AM REQUESTING."<P>I think, if you de-emphasize the feelings of anger and jealousy, and instead stress how hurt you feel, that puts him in the position of having to essentially make a choice between changing/ending the other relationship or deciding to deliberately continue hurting his wife. If he's a man worth his salt, he will have a hard time continuing to do something that hurts you this much. <P>On the other hand, if you make yourself appear jealous and demanding, that may actually make him all the more determined to rebel against you and continue the relationship.<P>You are in a tough spot. It looks to me like your husband is skirting the issue of ending the relationship, by trying to make you think you're nuts for ever thinking he'd cheat on you. This is just a diversion tactic. Bring the subject back into focus for him.<P>I don't know if you've read any of the Harley materials yet, but one of the basic beliefs is that we are ALL wired for affairs in the right circumstances. Nobody is immune or above it. We are naturally inclined to want to spend more time with people who make us feel good. But when this person is not our spouse, it becomes an incredibly dangerous situation. You cannot allow your H's emotional needs to be so well-met by someone else.<P>I want to remind you that you are not crazy, and you are trying to do the right thing. You are going about it in a good way. Do not second-guess yourself at this time. <P>I hope your talk goes well, I'll be here if you need me!!<P>Calla

gardner,<BR>Your H is missing the point!! If you believe you can have a calm, rational discussion with him without letting your emotions get the best of you, you need to do that when he gets home.<P>You need to bring up the issues about the cards, notes, hugs and other very obvious displays of closeness and affection between the two of them. Tell him these are simply not acceptable, and that you are completely uncomfortable and threatened by this relationship.<P>Since he did not directly address the question of ending that relationship or at the very least, limiting it and including you in it, you will have to ask him again. "How can we resolve this?" "How can we establish rules for this relationship that make me feel safe and respected?" If you would feel more comfortable if your H included you when he is around this woman, then maybe that would be a good compromise. But I'll be honest here, it seems like ending the relationship would be the safest thing to do.<P>What your H isn't seeing right now is that even if the relationship is not a physical affair, it is still a relationship that pulls his emotions, energy and affection away from you. And, as such, would be considered an emotional affair.<P>I think the best thing you can do is try very hard not to be angry and defensive (even though I'm sure you must feel this way, I know I would) and just repeat yourself until he gets it: "I REALLY WANT YOU TO CHANGE OR END THE RELATIONSHIP WITH _____. I HOPE THAT YOU VALUE OUR MARRIAGE ENOUGH THAT YOU WILL UNDERSTAND MY FEELINGS AND MAKE THE CHANGES I AM REQUESTING."<P>I think, if you de-emphasize the feelings of anger and jealousy, and instead stress how hurt you feel, that puts him in the position of having to essentially make a choice between changing/ending the other relationship or deciding to deliberately continue hurting his wife. If he's a man worth his salt, he will have a hard time continuing to do something that hurts you this much. <P>On the other hand, if you make yourself appear jealous and demanding, that may actually make him all the more determined to rebel against you and continue the relationship.<P>You are in a tough spot. It looks to me like your husband is skirting the issue of ending the relationship, by trying to make you think you're nuts for ever thinking he'd cheat on you. This is just a diversion tactic. Bring the subject back into focus for him.<P>I don't know if you've read any of the Harley materials yet, but one of the basic beliefs is that we are ALL wired for affairs in the right circumstances. Nobody is immune or above it. We are naturally inclined to want to spend more time with people who make us feel good. But when this person is not our spouse, it becomes an incredibly dangerous situation. You cannot allow your H's emotional needs to be so well-met by someone else.<P>I want to remind you that you are not crazy, and you are trying to do the right thing. You are going about it in a good way. Do not second-guess yourself at this time. <P>I hope your talk goes well, I'll be here if you need me!!<P>Calla

calla: I think you're right. He's focusing on my lack of trust rather than the inappropriate behavior. Trying to convince him this relationship has stepped over the line seems fruitless at this point. Appealing to his sense of loyalty to me is all I have at the moment. I can only hope his love for me is stronger than his need to be righteous, or his need for her.

Yikes!! Didn't realize I was re-posting calla's message like that. Sorry.<P>I'm afraid I'm not running on all cylinders right now....bit of a blithering idiot you might say.

Gardener,<BR>Not thiat this will necissarily happen in your instance... but this seems to be the same thing My H said to me while he was having his EA.<BR> I Discovered his EA about 2 weeks later and when i asked about all the things he said (ie what your H is saying) His reply was i didnt want to hurt you. <BR> You must put an end to it now. Later may be to late and the longer it is put off the more you suffer later.<BR> I sincerly hope that its not what i think it is for your sake.<BR><B>I don't think I led her on in any way, but maybe I did and didn't see it. </B><P>yeah and i have a bridge to sell you. <P><BR>the way i interpret this is he is either like my H and lying to " spare your feelings" or he is in denial hisself....<BR>i would sincerely suggest putting your foot down.<BR>best of luck<BR>Love,<BR>LUV<P><BR>

Yup, it looks like I gotta wear the black hat. So to him and to her, I'll look like a possesive, jealous, hysterical wife....and you know what? I don't care any more. Maybe down the line he'll understand. Maybe it will hurt us in the short term, but I can't play these games - the cost is too high....my sanity and our marriage.

Hoo boy.... our "talk" did NOT go well.<P>The same man who wrote a sympathetic note in the morning was a seething volcano by the time he got home from work.<P>Nothing I said got through. He just wanted to vent his anger. He is very angry and hurt by my lack of trust, and the fact that I didn't believe him the first time when he said there was nothing going on. He is also angry because I shared my feelings in a letter.... said it was "chicken-sh__"<BR>He immediately offered to move out if this is the way I felt and that his behavior is "just the way he is" with people. He thinks he is being punished for just being a "nice guy."<BR>I valiantly stayed calm through most of his tirade, until he got to the part about comparing me to his psycho-ex-wife. I told him not to compare me to her in a very angry tone.<P>So the unfortunate result of all this is that things are ten-times worse between us right now. We have only fought a few times in our 18 years together, but when we do, the cuts go real deep. This is obviously one of our problems. We both need to communicate better.<P>This morning finds me feeling like I really screwed up. So much for the brave lady in the black hat.

It sounds like your H is giving the typical WS treatment. Blow up, make BS think they are crazy, it is the BS fault for even suggesting such distrust. But when all is said in done the BS was correct. It is the WS way of covering up the truth to throw you off. And by him offering to leave is usually the easy way out for some WS. Then they can say "HEY BS DIDN'T TRUST ME, MADE ME LEAVE" and then miracle of all miracles, the affair only began AFTER the BS kicked the WS out. His behavior is typical of the WS.

My head tells me it's "just the affair" speaking. My heart tells me I'm a horrible person for assuming the worst about my H. I am wracked with self-doubt right now. Could I have been completely wrong here? Wrong in that I should have just let it go and ride it out?<P>What's done is done. I'm terrified now of trying to talk to him about this. So I guess I should just let things calm down for awhile.

Hi there, I am a FORMER WS, and I can tell you his being defensive is a major sign. <P>I was defensive about OM all of the time, and struggled to keep the "friendship" with OM going ... needless to say, we were "friends" at first and there wasn't "anything" for H to be worried about, heck, every chance OM had to talk to H he told him how "great your wife is, she is so great" yada yada yada (makes H sick now to think of it) <P>Now I catch myself being defensive about going to lunch with a Male friend (who is friends with OM) ... I have no right to NOT listen to whatever my H says and asks of me. I too am a very friendly, outgoing person who likes the company of men, and women, but have always had great male friends, but NOW I realize that all of my decisions have not been the best. I am lucky that I didn't get myself into a bad situation prior to the affair. <P>So don't let him tell you that he is just a Nice Guy, that makes me cringe. I am a nice woman too and am well-liked by many, but that isn't what it is all about. I need to be everything to my huband and not anything near that to any other man. My life will not be any less fulfilled if I do not go to lunch with a male friend. I will in the future INVITE MY HUSBAND TO GO WITH ME. <P>I hope this makes sense. I am just realizing all of these issues now (it has JUST been 2 months) ... and the best part is having a wonderful H who really tells me "like it is" and gives me a guys perspective. Sometimes it is so hard to put into words a helpful suggestion, but I hope you see where I am coming from. His "friendship" with this person, especially since he doesn't want to give her up, is a big sign. Unfortunately, I kept the PA at bay for 3 months, and had I guess an EA, and the day aftr the act happened, it was OVER. BUT, I would give my left arm for that to have never happened. Make sure it doesn't for your H. Hope this helps a little.

To struggling: Thank you for responding, your insight is appreciated.<P>I've been thinking all day about telling my H that I'm sorry if I hurt him and made him angry.<P>Would this be a dumb thing to do?

G:<P>I concur with struggling27. As a former WS, I recognize the pattern. He is blowing smoke to obscure his fog. Hopefully it is just an EA at this point.<P>What he needs to realize is that an emotional bond beyond the casual necessary for a work environment is inappropriate. He wants to be Mr. Nice Guy? He should start at home. If you can't be nice to your best friend, lover, spouse; then don't be hippocritical and make nicey-nice elsewhere.<P>Get him to read Surviving an Affair and His Needs, Her Needs by Dr. Harley. Put your foot down. The longer you let it continue, the more apt it is to get serious. But make sure you do so in an honest, caring and non-confrontational way: This is how I feel and why.<P>Godspeed and good luck,<BR>STL

STAND YOUR GROUND Gardner!! I mean, you don't have to be mean to him or anything but maybe just say that you are trying to avoid something happening. AND you know that it CAN so easily happen to normal people, just like you and me who get tangled in something, a "friendship". <P>You know what my H asked me? "What has OM EVER done for you to show you true friendship?" I didn't have an answer, it was always what I was doing for him. Really, what was I getting from him that I wasn't getting at home besides someone who wasn't even always that nice to me?? ( I am still in therapy and we are starting couples therapy to figure this out)<P>I read on here months ago, before admitting to myself that "oh my gosh, I really am having an AFFAIR" that men and women really CAN'T be friends, I thought, "who are these people that believe that, that men and women can't be friends????" BUT, it just might be true ... if you can't or don't invite your spouse to enjoy that friendship as well, then there is something wrong. I mentioned to my H that "we should get together with OM and his W sometime for dinner" way before this ever happened, but that is laughable now. I was even going far enough to kinda ask my H for help with the situation, because I had a crush on OM ( I told my H and the man who trusted me more than anything in the world even jokingly called him my "boyfriend" thinking i would NEVER do anything about it, and there I was in the downward FOG spiral)<P>Don't apologize, go with your gut, tell him you want to help. It hurts so bad ... what I did, but I am trying not to let it define me because I was out of my head. Stay strong. -AMM

gardner, (and struggling)<P>This sounds so familiar, even some of the dialog is the same. I too referred to my W's online "friend" as her boyfriend, trusting her to know the boundaries. She would often tell me that she "loved only me". (I believe her, actually) But... OM was filling different needs than I was and I still don't think she acknowledges the power of those needs. Since the needs he was filling were different she could safely think that she wasn't feeling love for him.<P>OM was being her confidant and listening to her problems. W says he was helping her with our marriage, but I don't understand in what way.<P>I did some snooping, and got caught. W was a furious as she has ever been during our 20 years together. She threatened that nothing between us would ever get better as long as I was snooping. Focussed on my distrust of her as the "real" problem. Sent mail to all of her friends and told them I was snooping and could read everything she typed.<P>I apologized and removed the snooping program from the computer. Some people here said I didn't have to apologize. They were probably right. But... it removed an excuse for W not to work on things and I felt a lot better after I apologized. Now we are working on things and our marriage is better than it ever was.<P>I also communicated with my W via letter. It was the only way I could say what I had to say *without* getting angry or getting sidetracked. It's sad that your H attacked your use of a letter. Did you make sure that it was filled with loving statements? Did you tell him how you felt using "I" statements? <P>I don't want to contradict other advice, but different strokes for different folks. You do the best you can.<P> -- Jeffers

Thanks to everyone for responding. You've helped me be strong. I never would have had the courage to stand my ground without the advice and encouragement I've received here. To put it simply....You people rock!<P>For anyone interested in reading my letter (sans revisions) to my H, it is posted as "Just Friends"-Long Vent. Sorry, I don't know how to make it an active link. I did my best to do it in a loving way, but I also went right to the heart of things. It was a strong letter and left no doubt as to what I was feeling. I felt that if I was going to do this, I had better make it count.<P>This is how I handled our latest conversation and it worked for us. Everyone is different and each of us knows what our spouses can handle and what they can't.<P>I decided that after being "tough" I needed to be "gentle" but still stand my ground. I told H that I was sorry if I hurt him and made him angry, but that I did what I thought was right to protect our marriage. I told him that this was by no means an easy thing to do and that if I didn't love him I wouldn't be putting either one of us through this.<P>I also told him that I understood that being told you're doing something inappropriate naturally makes you defensive and that denying himself this "friendship" would be an act of courage and character and that he posseses both qualities.<P>Basically I appealed to his "higher self" - the one I fell in love with, the one I want to spend the rest of my time on this earth with. It worked. He said he was so sorry for hurting me, that he loved me and wanted to do whatever it took to make things right.<P>So we sat on the back porch with our arms around each other and cried and laughed and talked until the mosquitoes came out. I'm crying tears of grateful joy writing this.<P>We have more work to do and I will remain diligent. I will continue to post here and receive the benefit of your caring and your wisdom. This place has brought my marriage back from the edge of a terrifying precipice and I am more grateful than I can express in words.<P>I wish to all of you what you have given me....love and hope.<P><BR>

Posting again to give you all some insight that my H had today, which I thought was very good. Maybe it will help someone else.<P>He said that what helped him to "un-fog" was to take the whole situation and think of it as "a thing." To emotionaly step outside of it and walk around it and look at it from every angle. He realized that there are four units to this "thing." Me, him, our marriage and OW (not neccessarily in that order). And that all the units are strung out in a line, and THAT's what the problem is. None of the units are connected.<P>The order of the units are me on one end, him in the middle, the OW on the other end, and our marriage way the heck off in the distance. He said that what he lost sight of was that him and I are a package deal. You take the whole package or you don't get to play. The OW has been unable or unwilling to accept the package, she just wants half. The rules of the game don't allow that.<P>He said that for some wacky reason, a scene from "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" popped into his head: "He chose poooorly." And he didn't want to be that poor sucker who withered up and blew apart. I just had to laugh. And that's a small miracle. The BIG miracle is that we CAN find our way back home when we are lost. We just have to be willing to look.

gardner,<BR>I'm SO GLAD your last talks with your H have gone as well as they did. It seems like he really understands where you are coming from now, and why you feel the way you do about this "extraneous" friendship that did not include you.<P>Has he decided to curtail the friendship, or to include you in the time or activities when this "OW" is around?<P>Please don't take what I'm about to say the wrong way...it certainly does sound as if your H is sincere. But just in case, I think you should remain "on your guard" for a little while, just to make sure that this "friendship" with the OW doesn't just go further underground. I'm sure this is probably not the case...but a little double-checking can't hurt, especially if you feel this OW was meeting some of your H's ENs in a very efficient way.<P>Trust and believe in your husband...but do it with your eyes wide open!<P>Wishing you continued happiness and success in your marriage,<P>calla

No Gardner, YOU ROCK, for following your instincts, for doing what you knew was best for you and your husband. Feel proud ... I got goosebumps when I read your latest post. That is great that your talks went so well. <P>I will say though that I back up what Calla says, remember, unfortunately I am a WS (it still makes me tear up everytime I type that, honestly) and I had VERY good days, and VERY low days. My mom said that she didn't recognize me anymore, and we live thousands of miles away from each other unfortunately, but even on email she didn't "recognize" me. I didn't recognize myself. I am THRILLED that you are making this work ... but (you knew there would be one right?? just do what Calla said and be on your guard, patiently, kindly, but be on your guard.<P>It came to me on my short ride home from work today that I am truly blessed, that my husband who looked at this site on my recommendation very briefly after I told him everything, knows to be the soft, loving, but stern (which I asked for and need) spouse on his own, because that is who he is, he loves me and I am lucky to have him. I sometimes wonder if I could be as strong as he is. I am weak, obviously, but not anymore, and I realize a lot now that I am 27 and not 20 like I was when we met. Lots more learning and growing together in the future!! And I am GLAD to have one with him. <P>Be strong together, believe in each other, it took me "running into the brick wall" before I saw the light, I am thrilled that your H saw it when he did. You can look me up, I haven't posted much, just to you really ... I think this site has helped me more and more everyday just believing that this will all be behind us one day. Lots of love to you Gardner.