Here is link...and I will copy posts to date to here..<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/005626.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/005626.html</A> <P>opyimistic one..We live in such a disposal sociey..people fall in love and promise forever..forever appears to be just a synonym to mean "as long as you please me."<BR>When will we be able to believe what someone says as the truth or should we all become mini lawyers and carry around our "briefs" and to get "all the conditions covered" as to what foever really means. We have been taught at the highest levels that your own rightousness and needs should come before others..<P>As people desiring to be something other than just beings when do be start becoming more humane and committed?<P>------------------<BR>You gotta believe!<P>IP: Logged<BR> <BR>jabber<BR>Member posted August 17, 2001 07:18 AM <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>I have often thought about this and I have no answer to the question.<P>IP: Logged<BR> <BR>Dogbert<BR>Member posted August 17, 2001 07:24 AM <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<P>quote:<BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Originally posted by Optimistic One:<BR>We have been taught at the highest levels that your own rightousness and needs should come before others..<P>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<P>Philippians 2<BR>3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; <P>4 do not {merely} look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others<P><BR>IP: Logged<BR> <BR>TruthSeeker<BR>Member posted August 17, 2001 07:42 AM <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>I think part of it is the illusion that it is possible to love someone forever. WHen you fall in love, you beleive that that feeling will last forever and you take avow and promise to love forever. But then life happens, feelings fade, and that love can't be felt much, if at all, anymore and so people give up on the commitment because the feeling is gone.<BR>I have come to the conclusion over the past 2 years that love is a feeling and as such it is subject to come and go like the wind. Marriage, however, is a commitment that has less to do with love than I thought. <P>I heard a song on the radio yesterday morning and it hit me. <P>"Whatever tomorrow brings, I will be there"<P>That's it in a nutshell. THat is marriage. That is commitment. It's not a promise to love someone forever. It's a priomise to be there with that person forever. A promise to share all that life has to offer, good and bad.<P>I think maybe marriage vows should lose the word "love". It's too much to ask someone to love another for a lifetime. How can one make such a prommise? Who knows how they will feel in a year, 5 years, 10, 20? But one can promise to be there. One can promise exclusivity without promising the love part. With the word love in there, people expect too much from themselves, from each other, and from their marriage.<P><BR>IP: Logged<BR> <BR>Dogbert<BR>Member posted August 17, 2001 07:46 AM <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<P>quote:<BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Originally posted by TruthSeeker:<BR>Marriage, however, is a commitment that has less to do with love than I thought. <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<P><BR>BTW - Hello.<BR>Marriage is not a commitment. Marriage is a union of people brought together by commitment. Marriage is a noun and not a verb. Love takes commitment so the root of marriage commitment is love and since the feelings of love come and go, what do you do when you have PMS and hate your husband? Or he is treating you like a jerk? It is commitment.<P><BR>IP: Logged<BR> <BR>TheStudent<BR>Member posted August 17, 2001 08:14 AM <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>This topic has been debated many times here. The feeling of love is not real "love", IMO. Or, should I say, it is only a small portion of what real love is. It makes doing loving actions easier, no doubt. But real love does not exist without commitment. Real love does not die--only the will to be loving (commitment) dies. However, since the feeling of love is the only thing most people of marrying age have experienced then they naturally assume that this is what marriage is supposed to be. To make things worse, our culture and their divorced parents do not teach them any other way.<BR>Not only that, very few ask themselves what they are willing to give when they get married. Most only think about what they're going to get--and they think they are going to get all these great love feelings forever. It is only our American culture that believes romantic love is the end-all-to-be-all for marriage. Other cultures appear to be alot more balanced and it is reflected in their much lower divorce rates compared to the US. <P><BR>IP: Logged<BR> <BR>Maverick<BR>Member posted August 31, 2001 12:28 AM <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<P>I am committed to my spouse, not unlike a convict, committed to a prison sentence. There is no love. There is no warmth. Just "commitment" to our vows.<P>quote:<BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Originally posted by TruthSeeker:<BR>I think part of it is the illusion that it is possible to love someone forever. <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<P>It would be one hell of a lot EASIER if women didn't insist on the whole "bait-n-switch" strategy of finding a partner. EVERY woman I have ever been seriously involved with has shown her true colors only after she had me hooked. If women would only feel confident enough to drop their false personas. To wear their true selves on their outsides, then fewer men would feel deceived and fewer women disappointed by those men.<P>Mav<P><BR> <BR>

Frankly this whole committment thingy bugs the heck out of me. IMO it is a big fat red herring and is responsible for more marital break-ups/affairs than any other single factor. It is functionally (as in psychologically) impossible for human beings to make such committments..... and in trying, do far more psychological/physical damage to themselves, their children, and society in general than all the infidelity in the history of wo/mankind.<P>There is no human way to make anyone "feel" anything, and those who say makes no difference who you are married too, the contract (vows, promises, whatever) is the whole point to life are sooooooooo in the "fog" themselves, that the frustration level (I feel) helps me understand a bit how bs feel re some of the ws reasoning. Who in the world (or their right mind) would support a notion that makes no difference who you share your bed with (so to speak, as a euphemism for the deep psychological/intimate bond one seeks in marriage) for a lifetime? Then they say (ever so self-righteously) well no one made you get married...HELLO....no one ever makes anyone have an error in judgement....we EXPECT people to learn from their mistakes, not be sentenced to life in prison (prison being anything you are compelled to do whether you want to or not). We all agree marriage should be absolutely voluntary, then we conspire to make it absolutely involuntary once entered...sheesh. What about deception? What about people regularly misrepresenting who they are emotionally/psychologically, even concealing factual issues from a prospective mate. The goal being to get them to make that marital committment.....Then when you have em, let the games begin....now you can be real, and as uncaring, insensitive, uncooperative, as you want...cause you know what....you GOT em. Committment favors the marital partner who is most selfish, most willing to control dominate the other partner. It is never equal...you who talk the wonder of committment are assuming you have 2 sane, fair, individuals, who in fact do have enough in common to love to be happy together.....just need the "vow" to help with the occassional bout of petualance or childlishness.... a vow can never, will never, compensate for marital partners with selfish agendas, which probably make up over 50% of human beings...divorce is absolutely essential to healthy marriage....first to terminate marriages that will never be psychologicaly rewarding for both partners (as opposed to one, usually the one screaming vows vows vows), and second the possibility of (divorce) "motivating" those who are dominateing in a marriage to clean up their act, or lose their spouse...... which they otherwise would not have done without that potential outcome...I know my wife never would have.<P>

??????<P>Are you just venting? no, you said you never vent....<P>??????<P>I'm confused.<P>sad_n_lonely.... what a name. I'm so sorry. You hate for us to say love is a decision. well, happiness is a decision too. choose to be miserable and question everything that's good, true, right, lovely and pure..... or choose to accept and love and find the good in everything... peace, joy, love, self-control, meekness.....<P>it's all your choice, snl. absolutely.<P>your wife is willing to change and grow. you are too. give it some time. no one is forcing you to. you must choose. you are here, so you must be choosing to give it a chance. so give it a chance and quit questionning it so much. just give it a chance.

Well maybe a little vent, kinda an academic one, saying love is a decision is absolutely no help at all. Anymore than just saying I can fly and then jump off a building. If it were that simple we would have a completely healthy happy human race, everyone just deciding to be happy...but we don't, we observe that is not how it works, human psychology does have all sorts of "rules" that apply, and one is that happiness is not a decision, it is the feeling we experience when we are in psychological balance in our lives...and obviously that means married to the right person (or in many cases, not being married at all I suppose). This concept frustrates me cause it implies if you are not decideing to be happy, you are defective somehow...is that what you think faith? Why wouldn't feelings of happiness be serving the same feelings of physical pain our bodies sense, telling us something is wrong? I am not choosing to be miserable (who would?), I am unhappy because me life is not in balance in some important way, and that imbalance existed long long before the ow came about, so cannot be that. Do you believe any 2 people can be just as happy (meaning psychologically healthy) as any other random pairing...does that mean you don't care who or what your husband is, you just love him cause you "decided" too (kinda like picking someone out of a police lineup maybe, or by scoring them on one of those dating shows)....faith do you really not care who you are married too? That is what I don't understand, I truly don't...it does make a difference to me who I am married too, I don't know why, it just does.

I do think that we could be reasonably happy with any of a variety of people - certainly anyone whom we cared enough about to marry - unless of course you'd met them in a bar and married that night while drunk. <P>Why is there an expectation that we have a right to be "happy" anyway? Do the millions of people who go to bed hungry every night, or who live in pain every day because they can not afford medical care, worry about whether their marriage makes them "happy?" It is only very recently that more than a tiny percentage of the human population had the leisure time to worry about whether or not they were happy - throughout most of human history, and for the vast majority of people alive today, there is no time for that - they were/are too busy worrying about putting food on the table. <P>Happiness can not be found by looking for it. The only hope of achieving happiness is through living a good life, through doing what is right and honorable.<P>

SAL,<BR>Didn't you choose your wife to marry? Didn't you date and fall in love? I know I chose my H, then I screwed up. But I still love him unconditionally.<BR>Why are you so full of anger?<BR>Love is never ending, it may hide so seek it out again. <BR>I have had times where I don't feel like Love is between my H and I, so I find his qualities I like, you know the things your spouse does that makes you happy. <P>1Corinthian 13:4-8<BR>Love is very patient and kind, never jealous or envious, never boastful or proud, never haughty or selfish or rude. Love does not demand it's own way. It is not irritable or touchy. It does not hold grudges and will hardly even notice when others do wrong.<BR>It is never glad about injustice, but rejoices when truth wins out. If you love someone you will be loyal to him no matter what the cost. You will always belive in him, always except the best of him, and always stand your ground in defending him.<BR>All the special gifts and powers from God will someday come to an end, but love goes on forever.

yes, snl, I care who I am married to. But, I guess, those cultures that have in the past and some now, practice arranged marriages, have a pretty high success rate.. Are those people miserable??? maybe some of them - I don't really know - I'm really just rtrying to mess with ya a little... I know of 2 arranged marriages that are working out just fine. <P>I picked my H because I loved him. He filled my needs, I filled his. We had fun together. We had similar beliefs. We were attracted to each other. <P>Happiness a decision? Yep. I think so. Life is full of crap.. lemons..... so, make lemonade. Sorry, you probably hate sayings and cliches like that. But it's true. You get fired? Do you lay down and cry and feel sorry for yourself? maybe... then you pick yourself up and do something to fix it. People die, people get sick, car accidents, games get rained out, kids make bad grades, roof springs a leak.... yes, I think some people CHOOSE to be miserable by NOT choosing to be happy. SOme people choose to be a victim of their circumstances - some people choose to be happy in SPITE of their circumstances.<P>Nope..... don't stay married if you are MISERABLE and married to a HORRIBLE person. We agreed on this already, snl..... AFTER you've given it a chance. AFTER yo've given it all you've got. <P>So WHY keep questioning this??? We have all told you marriage is a choice. Divorce is a choice. You have the key to set yourself free from your prison if you choose. Just be sure you're not walking out of the frying pan into the fire. ya know?? and how do you know that? you don't. Just try to make the marriage you have work. THats' all. <P>Do you really want to be sad and lonely forever? You will be, if you don't decide to be happy with the blessings you have. Who will take care of you when you are old? tired? sick? Who will hold your hand? Who will be there to look at and give a smile day after day? Do you want to be alone? Do you want to re-marry? How many times til you find the right one, snl? If there's no way to be happy with somone your whole life, then how long should an acceptable marriage last? How many times should we try? 2,3,4,5? Some people keep trying - never find happiness. THey are waiting for happiness to come to them, instead of looking for it - often right in front of their nose. <P>And as far as your comparison to flying... laws of gravity are pretty well defined, and unbreakable. Laws of human emotion and feelings??? as you are trying to define them.... nearly impossible. So NO, you cant fly. And yes, I believe you can decide to be happy, sad, miserable, optimistic, hopeful, etc.... Animals can't decide how to feel. THey have no ability to reason. We do. We have the ability, privelege,, and gift of REASON... to determine and control our own emotions.<p>[This message has been edited by Faith1 (edited August 31, 2001).]

I am the wife of SNL. H has been on an emotional disaster rollercoaster these last 2 days. We had counseling with Jennifer Harley Wed night. And it is downhill since then. He told me this morning that he is tired of people telling him what to do. He is tired of the Harleys telling him what to do. He said let him be and let him do what he wants to do. <P>I have told him if he doesn't want the marriage then end it. He thinks he found the perfect soulmate with the other woman, let him have that lowlife person. This is the OW 2nd affair, physical at that. I wonder how contaminated she is with STD or aids (which can take 10 years to show up with). She had penetration with the first guy and according to my husband that guy traveled around from woman to woman. Also,she threatened me (she called me on her cellular and talked to me) with suicide if her H finds out, she wants to keep this affair a secret.<P>My H I feel is trying to analyze his unhappiness with me, I feel he is deeply in the fog and H stated yesterday he does not want to continue counseling with Jennifer. I am not sure this is out of anger or for real. But I am getting close to the end of my straw. I put in an emergency counsultation with Jennifer yesterday and she offered me some advice that I will, if H wants to hear, to offer to H. <P>H is a good man, a good worker, and I do say that I love him. He is not meeting my EN totally, H does good then draws them back out by checking to see if the OW cell phone is still in use, as done this 4 or 5 times since the OW told me she will not talk to my husband again and the critical remarks he makes to me. Counseling with JEnnifer she explained that both parties have to work on the marriage 100% or the chances of it working are not as good. We are at the chances of it working not good. I am willing to give 100% but H isn't. He stated that he is not willing and is doing the best he can. So that is where we are. There is failure ahead of us, and I guess I have to start looking for a future alone, I will never marry again because I don't trust men. I put all my faith and trust into my H and got blasted with lies, and deceit, and my H having sex with the other woman (who I mentioned before is a lowlife person - according to my view, my H still loves her - but he does not love me). <P>I Read his thread and thought you would like to hear from me. Yes our marriage was not good. We had some good times though. H looks at the marriage as all negative. Most WS do look at their spouse with negativity - nothing good. But we did have good times, and enjoyed each others company,and dated and thought we were pretty compatible. Anyways, enough for now - will look at thread later, I have things to get done today, - just canned 2 bushels of tomatoes.<BR>I feel the baby boomers have made our society of marriage a disposal society, like packaging and appliances, instead of fixing them, throw them away and start over with new! I wonder what God is saying and thinking of all this. I asked my H if he thinks he is going to heaven, and I also, asked him does he think the OW is going to heaven with 2 affairs for sure? He couldn't answer - didn't know. <p>[This message has been edited by thinker (edited August 31, 2001).]

Hi snl:<P>Feeling sorry for yourself?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>There is no human way to make anyone "feel" anything,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I can punch you in the nose, and be pretty guaranteed that you'll feel pain. So don't buy into that crap that because "you are responsible for your own happiness" that means that no one has an effect on that.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>and those who say makes no difference who you are married too, the contract (vows, promises, whatever) is the whole point to life are sooooooooo in the "fog" themselves<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Again, this is a self-serving statement. It's been proven over and over that arranged marriages work quite well, and even contain "love". As Nellie mentioned, there's probably a good portion of the population that you could be married to successfully, if you were a "well-trained" husband and your spouse was a "well-trained" wife. You lack training, and apparently you're resenting this attempt by Jennifer to help you along.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>that the frustration level (I feel) helps me understand a bithow bs feel re some of the ws reasoning. Who in the world (or their right mind) would support a notion that makes no difference who you share your bed with (so to speak, as a euphemism for the deep psychological/intimate bond one seeks in marriage) for a lifetime? Then they say (ever so self-righteously) well no one made you get married...HELLO....no one ever makes anyone have an error in judgement....we EXPECT people to learn from their mistakes,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Again, the one-in-a-million "soulmate" idea is completely, statistically unsupportable. It's probably more like 1-in-10. And with training, you can probably cut it down to 1-in-2. And as far as making an "error"---fine. You made a mistake. But what you chose to do about the mistake says a lot about your character and your intestinal fortitude. You want to quit. To characterize that common playground phrase, "quitters never win". When you choose to quit a marriage, you're setting yourself up to quit over and over again. Because your perfect sole-mate will change over time (and you will too), and it won't be together, and you'll be right back in this emotional turmoil.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>not be sentenced to life in prison (prison being anything you are compelled to do whether you want to or not).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You should try REAL prison.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We all agree marriage should be absolutely voluntary, then we conspire to make it absolutely involuntary once entered...sheesh. What about deception? What about people regularly misrepresenting who they are emotionally/psychologically, even concealing factual issues from a prospective mate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What about deception? You need to learn complete honesty. You learn to not make the mistakes over again. If you don't learn those lessons, you are bound to repeat them.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The goal being to get them to make that marital committment.....Then when you have em, let the games begin....now you can be real, and as uncaring, insensitive, uncooperative, as you want...cause you know what....you GOT em. Committment favors the marital partner who is most selfish, most willing to control dominate the other partner. It is never equal...you who talk the wonder of committment are assuming you have 2 sane, fair, individuals, who in fact do have enough in common to love to be happy together.....just need the "vow" to help with the occassional bout of petualance or childlishness.... a vow can never, will never, compensate for marital partners with selfish agendas, which probably make up over 50% of human beings...divorce is absolutely essential to healthy marriage....first to terminate marriages that will never be psychologicaly rewarding for both partners (as opposed to one, usually the one screaming vows vows vows), and second the possibility of (divorce) "motivating" those who are dominateing in a marriage to clean up their act, or lose their spouse...... which they otherwise would not have done without that potential outcome...I know my wife never would have.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And your wife is cleaning up her act, apparently. What are you doing, other than feeling sorry for yourself?<P>Withdrawal is a *****.<BR>

Thinker,<BR>I am the WS,not sure if you have followed our story at all.<BR>God must think that you are a strong person for he has put alot on your plate, so to speak. I can only imagine what you are going thru. I bet you wish you could smack your H upside the head and say "come of that fog!" I told my H last night that I htink when I came out of the fog was when I was with the OM on a scenic drive with my son, and had change his dirty diper. The smell must have cleared the fog . <BR>Maybe SNL needs to get away from everyONE and think about what he really NEEDS and WANTS. Maybe he should try wrighting it all out.