DDay was 6/16/01. Wife told me (sort of) of EA with someone she met at a conference. Wanted separation to sort things out. Changed her mind and agreed to counseling. Would not leave guy alone and asked for separation again and then said she wanted a divorce too after two counseling attempts. She has now been moved out 5 weeks or so and things are pleasant between us but conversation centers around the kids, 9 and 6, and visitation.<P>She is still in the fog somewhat and before moving out has told me:<P>doesn't have feelings for me but does for him<BR>doesn't love me<BR>maybe never did<BR>was never on her own<BR>never dated much<BR>mistake to marry me<BR>sex was never that good (hot)<BR>doesn't like house we built<P>kinda follows the "script" doesn't it?<P>She since then has not expressed any of that. But I have not pursued any conversations with her either regarding us.<BR>As of now, she has not made any move towards a divorce that I know of, has an apartment but has not taken anything really from the home to furnish it. I have been there and there is literally only a bed and a card table, the kids sleep on the floor. Has not moved toward finalizing assets, bills, anything really and does not talk about it like she once did. She seems to be wavering in her decision, but is not talking to me about it, just my perceptions.<P>I do not know at all if the EA is still going on or what the status of it is. It started back in April, was discovered in June and could be fizzled out now, or still going. I just discovered the website and have been in counseling and am determined not to love bust. I want to keep this together, as long as the EA has not continued or turned into a PA. Question, do I bother trying to find out...so far I've been trying to focus on me but still keeping hopes up is very difficult.<P>It seems like she's wavering now and struggling, but if she's consummated this EA I don't want her back.<P>Also feeling like it's time to try to make some effort to let her know I still care. In the 5 weeks she's been gone we have not talked about us, and I have left her completely alone with regards to how she's feeling. I have not expressed to her that I care, that I want her back, that I'm open to a reconciliation, but I have not done the opposite either. How long do I wait before I try to tell her that I care, or do I let me actions speak?<P>Anyone else been through this that can help?<P>Anyone else with similar situations????

Well,<P>I've kinda been through this twice. And I can tell you something up front. You THINK if she has been physical with the OM that it will be the end. I said this all the way through my 18 year relationship with my h. I think that's why he did it the first time, to get rid of me. <P>But when it is found to be true....boy does your heart do a flip flop. All the things you think you thought about marital fidelity just do not seem that important. It's the love/trust/honesty issues, sure, but in the long term, what does sex with another human mean?<P>In an A, it is often not about the sex, it gets there eventually, but first it is an emotional bond. I have found this with my h's 2nd A. As far as I know it has not progressed to the bed, but it will, if I can't stop it somehow.<P>Your plan must be a Plan A approach, show her you are there, you love her, you know and want to please her needs, and you are non-judgemental. <P>I hate to say this, but you may find out the attraction has progressed to physical and you will have to deal with this: do you truly love this person, deep in your soul, and want to work it out despite what she has done or do you want to end it for a mistake? Twice now, it is the hardest thing I have had to do. At the moment I am getting out, because he chose (goaded by OW) to involve my children in their tryst.<P>I hope you can work this out.<P>------------------<BR>"When the going gets tough, the tough get going" - Nina's dad.

I'm curious about a couple of things--when d-day broke, who decided to separate or move out? Also, did W have behavior changes, convenient distractions that kept her away--<P>I'm a new poster as well, and am trying to find out trends, similarities in these things. Hang in there, man--<P>guidobalata

manfaith,<P>go to WAT's Plan A guideline in the just found out section of this site. I had to know if it was PA and I did find out and it was devasting. You have to assume that it is PA and accecpt it. Still doesn't change anything, you need to Plan A your butt off and pray everyday. The people here are incredible and have a wealth of experiance. So read, post and pray that this will work out. Hang in there, G

manfaith,<BR>I am very curious about your statement about not wanting your wife back if the affair was physical. You express that you really love your wife and have a desire to make the relationship work...but only if there has been no sexual/physical contact. Can you tell me why that is? Would a physical affair destroy your love, when an emotional one won't?<P>I have seen this phenomenon over and over on this board. Most of the Betrayed Spouses are women...who seem much more willing to work at forgiving their husbands who strayed, even if the affair was sexual. Husbands, on the other hand, seem much less able to accept or forgive sex with another man, even if the wife regrets the affair and wants to make the marriage work.<P>I just wonder if this difference in reaction is just a man/woman differrence...or what. I wish someone could explain it to me. In my own case, I was the WS. I had an A that was both emotional and physical. One main reasons (for me) that it happened was because my husband was no longer sexually attracted to me and therefore we had almost *no* sex life. I still was a very sexual person and greatly missed sex, cuddling and other forms of affection. I happened to meet a man who was very attracted to me, and...well...you can guess the rest of the story. I certainly didn't plan it to happen,but it did.<P>I'm not proud of what I did. But I still don't understand why my H is so hurt and angry at the fact that I slept with someone else, which is what he has fixated on much more than the emotional part, which also was very strong. I don't get it. He didn't want me himself (which he admits), and yet I guess he just expected that I could or would continue to live the way we were (no sex, etc.), and not become attracted to anyone else.<P>I tried to explain to my H that my A didn't happen because I didn't love or want HIM, it happened because he didn't love or want ME. Others have told me that he was so upset just because of "property" issues that men seem to have: As his W, I was his "property" and nobody else was supposed to "have" me.<P>But, back to you. Someone else replied that you might THINK you won't want your W if the A is sexual, but will change your mind if you discover this fact. What do you think about this?<P>I really want a man's point of view on why women can forgive, and men can't.<P>Calla

manfaith...are you out there?<P>bumping...

Hi Calla30,<P>For me it was the worst experience of my life when my wife slept with some other guy. I am pretty easy going, optimistic and forgiving but the image of my wife and this guy always seems to stick in my head. I try to forget it and I don't bug my wife about it. Why that is the case I really don't know. The betrayal thing is one aspect I think because you trust someone and then they turn on you. MArriage used to mean you don't sleep with other people unless you divorce first. So when the sleeping around happens it is kind of a shock. We don;t quite know how to take it. It doesn't seem like any kind of other mistake when some other guy actually is intimate with your wife. In my case there was no emotional part. It was just physical no love so I guess I was very lucky. The feeling about this is very strong though and hard to shake. Mentally I can just say forget it, move on, forgive and all that stuff but thoughts about my wife with some other guy while we were newly married, are pretty haunting. I tried to even think of the modern way to look at this and say well she deserved to have one more fling with the most attractive man on earth before settling down with me for good, it's the modern thing to do. But that didn't work either. If my mind is busy then I am OK. when I have nothing to do, I tend to think about this. Why? I don't really actually know. <BR>

Thanks for your responses, my internet service has been down. <P>Re: DDay, my wife asked for the separation initially but later agreed not to, and try counseling. She went to two counseling sessions and decided that she would separate, especially after some love busting by me (she continued contact with the guy after denying it to the counselor and me). She separated 4 weeks after dday.<P>Regarding my feelings for her if I found out it became a PA...I never said I loved her if you check my post, actually I'm not sure right now. I do care deeply for her, but after being lied to and betrayed, I'm not sure how I feel. But for the kids sake I'm keeping the door open and moving slowly.<P>It's a very good question regarding why does sex with someone affect a male BS vs female BS differently. I assume it's a Mars vs Venus thing. In my case, I'm not absolutely sure that it would be over but it seems like it would be the crowning blow.<P>In her case she never really expressed her unhappiness with the marriage clearly (not all her fault though!) so I'm uspet over her lack of "trying" before the EA, then her lack of making an effort at counseling, and now her lack of even giving a separation a chance. She now doesn't seem to be in a hurry, but she's not saying what's on her mind either.<P>In regards to behavior changes prior to dday. The only thing that came up was the last week she was quite cold and unhappy. NOTHING before that, everything was the same. In fact the evening before she told me we went out with another couple who are old friends for dinner, drinks, and dancing. She acted perfectly normal all evening. I guess that's part of my concern, how can someone pretend like that?<P>Calla, did you ever make the statements that my wife did? It seems so common to "trash" the past to make the WS feel better about what they did.

mainfaith,<BR>To answer your question about did I ever "trash" our relationship...no, I did not. My H did, however. <P>In fact, on D-day, I made it as clear as I could to my H that I thought we had a solid history and (except for the past year) a good relationship from which to rebuild and recover...if he would just commit to doing the work with me. HE was the one who said, "I should've known you would do this to me," "Our relationship was never that good," etc.<P>You'll find as you read more here that this technique of altering and re-writing the past to validate your actions is called "revisionist history." It's commonly used by WS's to justify affairs, but as my case illustrates, this tactic can be used by either spouse.<P>It's shocking...and sometimes almost comical...to read about all the wayward spouses (like your wife) who say things like "I never loved you." If we believe this line, we have to believe that a large number of people actually decide to marry partners they don't love, something I find a little hard to swallow.<P>Calla

Hi manfaith,<P>I agree with the others on the board, this very well could be PA. My advice...assume it is a PA then decide if you want to continue in this marriage. I knew something was not right in my M (before d-day) and the thought crossed my mind about an affair...I decided at that point that I still wanted to save my M no matter what had happened. A couple months later we had d-day and my H said it was a EA, I found out a few weeks later that it was a PA. Yes, this was a horrible shock...but I was prepared for it and knew what I still wanted.<P>And although my H never said he did not love me anymore, he did say looking back at when we got married 9 years ago he wonders if he was really ready to do that, or if that was the right thing to do. (I told him I was sure EVERY WS has had that thought in addition to most spouses probably question that at some point.) I was there, we dated for 7 years before we got married...I KNOW HE WAS READY...I KNOW IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.<P>Good Luck, Heck

Manfaith,<P>Yes, this sounds simular.<P>My wife said the meanest stuff to me:<P>She does not love me<BR>She has "feelings" for the OM<BR>She does not want me to touch her any more<BR>Was not sure if she really wanted to marry me<BR>Sex is not enjoyable for her anymore<BR>Maybe we were not made for each other<BR>ECT, ECT, ECT.<P>I can go into my story, but it comes down to her justifying what she is doing. <P>I can say this. If I did find out that my W was or is in a PA. I am gone. No doubts about it. I could never get over that mental picture. Knowing that someone could be making love to my wife. <P>Dino