The reason why my H and I had a bit of a blowout last weekend was due to a few reasons:

1 - He confessed (in a yes I did, no I lied, no I really did game manner) that one of his female "friends" slept in our bed with him the night he found out his dad died. They "spooned". This of course really upset me. He felt entitled, saying, "What, did you want me to be alone that night?" I was unfortunately out of town. I got home by noon the next day. (As far as he's concerned, I wasn't there for him, so he was entitled to have her sleep over.) He went on to say that his female friends (there are 2 who are like his 2 best friends now) sleep over all the time. I don't know if this is true or if he just said it to hurt me.
2 - He again brought up the question (this was at least the 5th time), "What would you do if we got back together and I slept with someone else?" I always am reluctant to answer that question. My standard answer has been that I would be very hurt, and I don't know what I would do unless I was actually in that situation. I am afraid that if I tell him that I would leave him, that he'll leave me now, using my answer against me. Also, he told me that if we got back together, that he would sleep with whoever he wanted whenever he wanted, and I couldn't do anything about it.
3 - He was very drunk.
4 - He got angry at me for telling him he shouldn't be mean and unkind to me, and intentionally try to upset me. He was also shocked that I wasn't in a grovelling and humble state. I remained very calm throughout. He yelled, screamed nasty things at me, swore at me etc. I just kept repeating that I wanted to be treated like his wife again, and that I loved him, and that I didn't deserve to be treated like he was treating me. This all ended in him calling me selfish, high-falootin', etc. and telling me he'd never call me again. He hasn't called. (Today I think I'm going to show up unannounced to see him and try to make amends.)

Back to the reason I'm posting this: What should I tell him, that would be a model Plan A, non-LB answer, when he asks again (I know he will) "What would you do if I slept with someone else?"

I'm tempted to reply with one of the following:
1 - I don't want to be married to you if you are going to plan to be unfaithful.
2 - I would tell your mother. (I have told him for years that if he slept with someone else I'd tell his mother. The only reason I ever told him that is b/c he asked on several occasions over the years before my infidelity what I'd do if he slept with someone else.)
3 - I would leave you. (But this one is the one I feel I can't say - hypocritical!)

What's the best answer?? Keep in mind that right now he feels such a huge sense of entitlement to say whatever he wants, be with whoever he wants, etc. because not only did I cheat on him last spring, but his father just passed away 3 weeks ago. He's going through a very difficult time.

Any advice for if/when I see him today?

Right now I'm tempted to phone one of those 2 female friends (the one who actually is sort of a friend to me still too) and ask her about the sleep overs. Funny thing is she was there for part of last Friday's blow-out, and gave my H crap for being such a jerk. He told her he was so drunk he didn't remember. But, he certainly hasn't phoned me.....so I don't buy that. I am reluctant to phone her though for fear she tells him what I asked her, and he goes into "protect the good and loyal friend and treat the cheating wife like crap" mode.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Jen <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

<small>[ February 23, 2003, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen,

I would be asking myself if that was the question of someone who is committed to recovery or of someone who is committed to VENGEANCE? I think it is the latter, so any answer will be wrong. It sounds to me like this is all a game being executed by someone who is more interested in punishing you than trying to fix his marriage.

Your goals are completely different: his is to punish you and yours is to restore your marriage. Until the goals change, any answer you give will be wrong and used against you, IMO.

<small>[ February 16, 2003, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

I just realized something - I don't want to ask that friend for the truth. I want it from my H. So I won't call her. Calling her would be an LB of sorts I am guessing.

JB

First of all, everytime I hear about your H and the "its ok to sleep with women in his bed" I think of Michael Jackson and his adamant statements about how sleeping with kids in his bed is a beautiful thing. It's a sign of a very different way of thinking.

Anyway, back to your question. You can tell him that it would be really hurtful to you if he would willingly do something like that. And that it would cause you to feel less willing to stay in this marriage. Unless you've said, "I'll be with you no matter what" you could add that it may be bad enough that you may decide that there isn't enough in the M to save at that point.

After telling him, you might try the emphasizing the repentent/forgiveness thing some more (what would he need for him to forgive you) and then go Plan B (if there is nothing) with the expectation that you H is a bit more lost than most folks - there doesn't seem to be any motivator for change on the current path and so you're just going to lose all your feelings eventually.

Don't bring up the question unless he brings it up.

As to how you should answer the question, I would like you to consider the following:

'Even though I don't know for certain how I would react to your revelation, I hope that God would grant me the emotional fortitude and humility to seize the opportunity to show you(we're talking deeds here Jen) how much I love you. Not by judgementally using the truth as a weapon to lash back at you, but instead by being lovingly receptive to your thoughts and feelings as to why you felt the need to go outside our marriage for comfort and support.'

As always Jen, I wish you the best.

2 - He again brought up the question (this was at least the 5th time), "What would you do if we got back together and I slept with someone else?" I always am reluctant to answer that question. My standard answer has been that I would be very hurt, and I don't know what I would do unless I was actually in that situation. I am afraid that if I tell him that I would leave him, that he'll leave me now, using my answer against me. Also, he told me that if we got back together, that he would sleep with whoever he wanted whenever he wanted, and I couldn't do anything about it.

Jen,
You should answer No.1 and No.3 IMHO.
This man isn't going to use you saying you'd leave him against you. He is TELLING you right out he WILL sleep with other women. Right now it is up to you if you want to have a marriage like this. You CAN do something about it. You do not have to live with a man telling you he WILL sleep with women if he chooses. I have to admire you for still looking for a way to explain your boundaries without LBing.
Make sure you follow through with the consequences you have for sleeping with other women or he will have you. He will KNOW he can treat you like this and this will never change. If a man who is willing to sleep with other women doesn't come back what have you lost?

Jen - I've read some of your more recent posts and I have to say that I'm so sorry for the way your H has treated you. Yes, he is hurt, but he has gone all the way to 'cruel' in his response to you. Do you know what exactly he is most hurt about regarding your A? Is it moral indignation, or he loves you so much he can't stand to think of you w/OM, or he thinks you've abandoned him, or lots of other possibilities. The reason I ask is that you might be able to answer his question about what you'd do if he slept with someone else by focusing on the source of his anger.

For example, if it's moral indignation that's most bugging him, then you might take a "two wrongs don't make a right" approach, tell him you know firsthand that the pain of an A isn't worth it, and that you'd hate to see him feel the same agony you do if he slept with someone. If he's stuck on the image of you w/OM, maybe tell him that it would break your heart if he did what you did, you couldn't stand it, you know how he feels. I guess what I'm suggesting is that you identify with his pain, letting him know you understand what he's going through, and asking him not to repeat the same mistake. It's not groveling but it is admission that you were wrong and you know it.

There are MANY issues that are stirred up when dealing with an A, so I'm guessing you can identify with whatever issue is most crucial to him b/c you've recognized these issues yourself. In my H's A, I'm having the most trouble dealing with how he could do it knowing it was wrong, the moral indignation thing. I don't have as much trouble thinking about him w/ OW, (it will take a lot more thinking for me to explain why.) I would imagine if the tables were turned, though, and I was the WS, my H would have his own issues that hurt the most. Perhaps these issues are related to ENs. Hmmm...

Having said that, there may come a time when you have to set some boundaries, you know that you won't tolerate an open marriage. For now, for this conversation with H, maybe you could be diplomatic. Let him know you understand the source of his pain, and if you don't, then ask him. JMHO. Good luck, thanks for sharing with us.
Lablady

Jen,
I reread my post and realized it was harsh considering you had an A. From your post I gather that you realize this was a mistake and don't hold this over him as a threat or that you will do it again. Your H's attitude is different. He is proposing doing it again and is using this as a weapon. He is telling you he is hurt by you A but does NOT excuse him doing it again.

Melody_Lane - Yes, you are right. He has never told me he is comitted to recovery. He is still in the vengeance and punishment mode. He just likes to be able to take some comfort from me without making any comittment to me. He has never swayed from his "I'm undecided and don't know what I want" standpoint. That's why I've been tempted to give him a plan B letter (see other thread) with the main message being "until you decide you actually want to work on this marriage, I don't want any contact with you." However, in the state he's in over his father's death, I don't think plan B's the right choice at this time. For me to plan B him would be downright hurtful, and would make me look even worse than I already do.

est - The MJ analogy made me laugh. Thanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I like the phrase you used, "that it would cause you to feel less willing to stay in this marriage." It's not "I'd leave you" and it's not "I'd just shut up and take it" either. On the topic of what would he need for me to do for him to forgive me....when that topic has come up before, he usually asks me if we could go to a bar, pick up a man and he could watch us have sex, and then he'd take me back. Yes, I'm serious, he's said this. I tell him there isn't a chance in he** I'd ever do that, of course. But maybe it would be worth my while to gently ask him what it would take on my part for him to be able to forgive me, if there's anything specific I can do. I haven't asked that directly. I'd be very interested to hear his answer.

CoffeeMan - Indeed, I won't bring up the question again unless he does. I like your loving and Christian based response, but it also makes me think that maybe just maybe I could answer him with, "I would hope that if you and I got back together, we would become better communicators and better at meeting each others needs so that you wouldn't have to turn to someone else in the first place."

Willow - Thanks for your perspective too. It makes me think I should tell him "I don't want to be married to you if you plan to sleep with other women, period."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you know what exactly he is most hurt about regarding your A? Is it moral indignation, or he loves you so much he can't stand to think of you w/OM, or he thinks you've abandoned him, or lots of other possibilities. The reason I ask is that you might be able to answer his question about what you'd do if he slept with someone else by focusing on the source of his anger. - lablady </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well....my gut reaction is that he's most hurt that I slept with someone else, and if we get back together, he doesn't get to have that same "privilege". He feels it's not fair that I got to have sex with someone else and he didn't. (For years he's asked me what I'd do if he slept with someone else and I always said I'd tell his mom.) But I'll try to take your question as it was meant. I'd like to venture that it's b/c he loves me so much he can't believe that I'd betray him like I did, and he liked his BF so much he can't believe he'd betray him like he did. He feels very alone and isolated, and has lost his trust for me and all male friends (he cut off contact with all his male friends).

I have told him that I think that two wrongs don't make a right. I like to joke that if "an eye for an eye" is your philosophy, you'll both end up blind! But I could mention it again.

Your "it breaks my heart" comment makes me feel like telling him, "It would break my heart if you slept with someone else. It breaks my heart that you have already slept next to and spooned with someone else, let alone having sex with them."

I was trying to set some boundaries when we last talked, (I actually stood up for myself and tol him he shouldn't be treating me so poorly, no matter how upset he may be at the current time, it isn't a license to be mean to people) and it made him so mad. It's why he called me selfish and high-falootin', and told me I shouldn't be that way, but instead should be humble and kiss his a$$. I guess he's so used to me being a doormat that me trying to set some boundaries for myself really throws him off.

Hmmm.....so now I still need to choose what to say, if he brings it up again. My choices have expanded to:
- it would cause you to feel less willing to stay in this marriage
- CoffeeMan's response
- I would hope that if you and I got back together, we would become better communicators and better at meeting each others needs so that you wouldn't have to turn to someone else in the first place
- I don't want to be married to you if you plan to sleep with other women, period
- two wrongs don't make a right
- It would break my heart if you slept with someone else. It breaks my heart that you have already slept next to and spooned with someone else, let alone having sex with them.

But I can just hear him, he'd ignore any of those answers and ask me again, "But what would you actually DO?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

JB

It doesn't matter what you answer to your H. The question is simply a trap, IMO.

And besides, the only honest answer you can give him is, "I don't know what I would do".

You could then follow up with what you would HOPE you would do (following MB guidelines, e.g. no LBing and calmly and rationally asking what went wrong, and why, etc).

And then you could say that for all you know, you would beat him over the head with an cast iron frying pan!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

He's torturing you with this question... and don't think he doesn't know it! He knows what buttons to push with you, he always has, and he's always pushed them, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

It would be interesting to hear his wording on how he has reacted to your A. We all know that he feels justified in his actions... but has he actually realized what he has done?? I doubt it.

Hah! Maybe you could ask him to say what he has done, and then to answer his own question, ask him how he would expect you to react? And if it would be okay if you did the same as him? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I don't know Jen. I really don't. I'm just rambling here now. All I can think to myself (and now I'll share it here), is that your H really doesn't deserve you. sigh!

Karen

You're right Topie, he doesn't deserve me. The rational part of me knows that. I know I could probably do better. BUT:

- I love his family so much.
- I can't walk out on him now, he's in such a mess over the loss of his father, I think he needs me
- I can't walk out on him now, I'll look like the biggest b***h that ever walked the earth. First I cheated on him, now I leave him right after his dad dies?
- I made a committment to my H before God. I have to try to make this work.
- I'm turning 30 right away. If he and I can work things out, it's just so much easier. I still have a good chance of getting to have kids. If I leave him, I may be in for a series of useless relationships, and end up old and unmarried and childless like a very nice cousin of mine who also left a man at this age.
- I still love him. I miss what we once had.

I'm so confused. I'm so deep in my thoughts in the last few days it's exhausting. I'm so worried about doing the "right" thing. Today I need to go visit my H's other grandparents (he has all 4), since it's his grandma's bday tomorrow, and I'm not going to be invited to the dinner.

Sigh,

Jen

Jen,

I think you really really need to back off. I have been reading and posting to you since you first arrived. What you did was very very wrong, but it has been clear that your H has a screw or two loose from the very beginning. It seems you want to be married to his family a lot more than you want to be married to him.

His behavior suggests that he is really a child fully incapable of handling stress or pain. As someone who has lost his father, and is married to a woman that has lost BOTH of her parents your H's reaction of needing to sleep with a woman or ANYONE to deal with the grief is very very strange.

My question to you is can you be married to such a child? What kind of a father do you think he will make IF you decide to have children together? What kind of an H do you think he will make? What kind of an H was he with his porn addictions, listening at the bedroom door while you were with OM?

I personally think that you cannot make amends for what you have done with this man. Your marriage wasn't on sound footing before, and it is not going to be in the future UNLESS he seeks help.

I can understand him being hurt, but I don't understand his reactions to stress. Personally my feeling is that you should plan B him until the woman are out of his life. YOU ARE ENTITLED TO A FAITHFUL HUSBAND. You really are. If he doesn't think so then the marriage is over and there is nothing to save.

There are few people I say this too on this site, but I think you shouldn't be married to this man. In fact HE shouldn't be married to anyone until he addresses things far differently than he has. Same goes for you. You obviously have some issues to address.

You are no saint. You have messed around with three different men, and had a full blown PA with his best friend. BUT, you cannot rebuild with someone addicted, and he is addicted to feeling sorry for himself.

Time to fully reassess this situation and yes talk with his family. He is entitled to leave you. He is entitled to his pain. He is entitled to stay and work on the marriage. He is NOT entitled to an affair. He is NOT entitled to punish you. Your punishment will come from within IF you really have the conscience you seem to indeed have.

I am sorry this sounds harsh, but the fact is: this is a harsh message. Stop fooling around with this man/child. Let him have his women, but then he cannot have a marriage.

Must go. Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

It sounds to me like you might be getting into a fog of your own. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Seriously though, working to "win" a WS spouse back, CAN become an addiction in itself.

Your buts, your excuses, your "reasons", are mostly based on what you think OTHER PEOPLE want from you. And are based on what OTHER PEOPLE will/may think of you. You need to chuck those reasons aside, and look at the ones that matter to YOU. Are they enough to keep working your plan A now?

- I love his family so much.

You can do that, with or without being with your H.

- I can't walk out on him now, he's in such a mess over the loss of his father, I think he needs me

But do YOU need to be there for him? Please don't be upset at my devil's advocacy here... but his actions don't show that he needs you. His actions show that he needs his 2 "friends". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

- I can't walk out on him now, I'll look like the biggest b***h that ever walked the earth. First I cheated on him, now I leave him right after his dad dies?

Who will think of you that way? If anyone actually does, do they know the whole story? (I doubt it). You didn't cheat on him b/c you knew his dad was about to die. I don't know how to help you get over that guilt... but you should know (logically) that it's not your fault that FIL passed away, right?

- I made a committment to my H before God. I have to try to make this work.

IMO, this is the only "reason" on your list. If it's good enough for you, then don't pressure yourself with your other "reasons".

- I'm turning 30 right away. If he and I can work things out, it's just so much easier. I still have a good chance of getting to have kids. If I leave him, I may be in for a series of useless relationships, and end up old and unmarried and childless like a very nice cousin of mine who also left a man at this age.

You are not your cousin. A woman doesn't start to be old for childbearing until age 35. And if kids are really that important to YOU, then you could always go to a sperm bank. Your H is NOT material for being a good father right now (and if he really is sufferring from SA, then he may never be. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ).

- I still love him. I miss what we once had.

I miss what I once had with my H too. But nothing he could do would ever make it come back. It's gone Jen. Yes, you need to mourn "what you once had", but you also need to understand that it will NEVER be that way again. To venture into recovery with your H, will be starting from scratch again.

Please understand that my comments are only meant to help you think (and see?) a different direction than what you've written. Go ahead... tell me off. I may have stepped out of line here. And if I have, I apologize.

Karen

Jen,
To follow up on Topie & JL's comments, you do need to be aware of your H's present state of mind.

Take a look around and notice that the BS here are not reacting as he is. Also you are acting much better than some of the Ws we are and have been dealing with.

Now with that pix in your mind, step back and ask the question: Do I want my H back as he is?
Do you BOTH deserve better?

Then formulate where, when and how to respond. Since I last posted to you last Jen, did he call you?

If not, responding to him now may not be wise. He still needs to feel the repercussions of his actions toward you. Also that he may be damaging the reputation of others which is NOT a good thing.

If and when you do choose to respond, IMHO I would try to keep it calm and general. Something like: "I would like to see my wonderful caring H back. You remember the one with some imperfections but still an all around great guy?!?!. That's the man I married and I need to apolgize to HIM for my being unfaithful. As for the s3x piece, well dear the sleeping arrangements and other activities benefits to a M. So that could happen depending of if we have an M to build on. You know like planning for our wedding......that had to happen 'before' the M actually took place (use this if it applies or something better)"

Show him that while having s3x is important it is not what makes the M. I am not sure if this is hard for the male gender to understand but if it is, you may have uncovered the missing link between man a woman!!! LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

take care,
L.

Jen ... I think it's truly sad how your husband doesn't realize how fortunate he is to have a wife like you. This board, as you know, is filled with people who only wish their spouses would be as committed to re-building their marriages as you are ... half as committed, even. It frustrates me that he would want to continue to treat you so.

Jen,

Last time I looked you were all plan B. But I read the other thread and see your point about the continued grieving process. There is so much going on...your marriage, the death of his father, etc. You are making a very compassionate choice by looking to comfort him.

The only answer I could really see as valid is your I dont know answer. However you could share with him the the different scenarios that have crossed your mind.

I will tell you what my husband told me when I posed the same question to him...would he stay with me if the situation was reversed. You know what he said: NO. He couldn't take it. He told me he was not that selfless of a person to ever be able to handle it. He said he knows he wouldnt be able to have sex with me again and probably never be able to look at me again. He said that was his problem. He knew then he put himself first in all things. He knew this was his problem...so the answer then was...I would cut my losses and run. I respected his answer because it was true. I was willing to help him better himself when he knew he was previously never willing to sacrafice. He has since changed his opinion.

But I think the difference was in what I really wanted to know by posing this question. I wanted to know if he understood what strength and pain it took to reconcile. I wanted to know if he realized that he was far away from that and to begin to heal our marriage he would have to move towards that. The question was completely hypothetical...he knows I was not talking about revenge or weakness. I wanted to know if he got it?

I wonder what your husband really wants to know when he asks this question. Does he want a free pass...does he want to taunt you...does he want to know if you get it? I think it is probably a combonation depending on his mood and his alcohol level.

Honestly I think everyone runs the scenario through their mind BS/WS alike but when it comes down to that moment you just dont know. I have gone through multiple DDay's every time I said never again. And even now I say never again but I couldnt tell you how I would react...have I run every thought through my mind from Lorena Bobbit to Plan A...sure...doenst mean I know.

I was telling my Sunday School class today about St. Peter and Christ's prediction of betrayl. Peter would say no Lord...never...but Christ knew and told him so...My point is Peter was so confident he would never betray Christ he couldn't fathom the thought...but he did as Christ said when faced with the moment. What it comes down to is the growth and strength of character in that moment that matters...not what you said you would do.

My husband knew he couldnt say to me...I would forgive you, take you back...that reverse psychology crap was not going to work on me. He knew his behavoir did not fit his words...he betrayed me when I was good to him why would he stand by me? He could not say that he had strength of character when he did not. Now over the years he has changed...truly...his answer would be different now...to a question he will never be tested on.

You too have changed...you should answer with your heart...share your fears of what he is really asking. The old Jen would probably have filed divorce minute one. The new Jen is looking to heal your marriage, his pain as well as yours. You want the opporitunity to live what you have learned. And take things day by day.

Prayers for you and yours as you continue this troubling path.

ayslyne

I am going to give you a suggestion that I am sure most on this board will think is horribly wrong but I will make it anyway. From your posts it is clear that your husband is getting worse towards you and he thinks he has the right to hurt and humiliate you forever because he knows that you are a puppy dog to him in the sense that you seem to be willing to accept almost anything he throws at you. He seems amazingly childish, unloving and self-centered. My suggestion is to contact a lawyer and move toward a divorce. I really believe this may be your opportunity to actually shock him back to reality as to what he stands to lose and react in a mature way. If he does not care then it is time for you to move on anyway. It just seems to me that you are enabling his behavior to constantly hurt and belittle you.
Enough already! He will continue to act like a child as long as he is being treated as a child in that there are no consequences to his actions and attitudes concerning his behavior. I think this is something you should consider. I wish you the best.

I think I'd be tempted to tell him that you hope to God you NEVER have to find out what you'd do (because we all know you NEVER know til you are in that situation) and that if he ever did sleep with someone else, he might find out things HE doesn't want to know,,,like the pain a WS feels,,and they DO feel pain. I'd also remind him that revenge affairs destroy the fabric of relationships just as badly as any other type of affair, and ask him if he wants to FIX this marriage or make it worse in the name of making YOU hurt as much as he does. Holly

Well, I want to start off by saying thank you for all of your detailed replies. In all honesty, a lot of what you folks have to say just confirms what my subconscious knows.

I went to see my H today. I just showed up at the house. He was napping, and invited me to come nap with him. So not much visiting was done. Just before I left, we talked a little bit. I didn't ask very many questions or start much conversation. I couldn't be bothered. So many of our conversations about the relationship have been more damaging than useful. There were some important things that got said though. I was asked to leave because he was going out to see his brothers, and one of the female friends was coming over, and he didn't want her to know I'd been there. So I said well, I guess we're back at where we were a few weeks ago then aren't we. He said things never changed. I said well with us spending so much time together I thought they had, but fine, I guess things are back to as they were. I left when asked. I couldn't be bothered to make a stink about it. Before I left though we talked about the mail. I asked him if he wanted me to send in changes of address for the last few places that were sending mail to the house. He ignored the question. I didn't ask it twice. I asked him if he knew why I didn't change the addresses, he said yes, that it was because I was still optimistic about things working out. Then he said, "You know, it's not you, I just don't think I want to be married to anyone. I prefer living alone and not having to worry about doing things for anyone else, worrying about someone else's feelings, or talking to someone else all the time. About the only people I can stand to be around are my brothers." I felt like saying something like, "So that's why A (female friend) is coming over to pick you up so you can go to the bar together?" but didn't bother. It wouldn't have been productive. I said, "Well, if you ever change your mind you know where to find me," and left.

I am content that I was calm, nice, and not overly inquisitive today, and that I left things on that final note. For now, I'm going to a plan B without the letter. I need to rework the letter, make it WAY shorter, and just cut to the point: I don't care to be around you unless you decide you want to be married to me and are willing to put in all the work that's needed in order for that to happen.

Or as JL said, I'm just going to "back off." For one, I don't care to be around my H. He's no longer the man I married at this point. Only God knows if he'd ever be anything remotely like him ever again. Thanks JL for asking the question about what kind of a father he'd make. As he is now, I know he wouldn't make a good one. He wouldn't be a good role model for how to treat others, that is for sure.

I've known for a while that the only way for us to work things out is for him to wake up, make changes in himself, seek help for himself, and for him to decide on his own if he wants to be married, to me or anyone else. I just shoved it aside for a variety of altruistic reason, as Topie pointed out, because I was worrying about everyone else but me. To heck with that, I come first now.

As I said somewhere else recently, I moved out in August because I KNEW, I just knew he had completely changed the way he treated me and it wasn't going to change anytime soon. I knew I deserved better.

I went and visited his other grandparents today. They are so loving. It's his grandma's birthday tomorrow, and grandpa insists that I attend the family dinner, even though I told him my H would be upset to have me there. Grandpa said tough, if he's upset you sit next to me, you are part of this family. He went on to say that's what my FIL (grandpa's son) would've wanted too, because he loved me too. What a loving man. I bring this up because Topie's right, I can have a relationship with my H's family without having one with him. I can and I will.

Orchid - no he never called. And I'm going to distance myself with him.

I just noticed. When I see him, I feel a sense of peace that I realize I don't want to be with him. Then time passes and I start to feel lonely, and I think it's loneliness for him. Really, it's loneliness for the H I once knew, who is apparently gone. I have to keep this awareness of my moods in mind, and just pick up and live my life without him. Maybe I will change all those mailing addresses finally.

Whippit - thanks for your kind words of support.

Ayslyne - Thanks for sharing your perspective again. While I know you are a much more considerate person than my H, it is worthwhile to see things from your side.

BryanP - Where we live, we can't file for divorce until 1 year is up from the beginning of the separation. So, if he doesn't file at that time (in June), I will. But we have to wait until then. But I agree with you, "enough already."

Hearthealing - indeed, I've said some of that to him, but he doesn't hear it, or doesn't respond because he knows I'm right.

I'm beginning to accept the fact that the man who was once my loving H is now a stranger to me. I need to just grieve for the loss of what I once had, and the man I once knew. I need to keep my boundaries up, and stay away from my H unless he does some serious waking up, getting help, and directly saying he wants to work on this marriage.

This is such a rollercoaster, but I learned a lot in the last couple of days. It gives me peace to know his family still loves me, and I can be in contact with them without him. It gives me peace to begin to accept that he isn't the man I was happily married to - either he is gone or aliens have taken over his mind! Time to look after me, me first.

Thanks again all. I am so glad I have MB. I shudder to think where I'd be without this source of support, objective opinions, and general good advice. (I guess I may just be in as bad a situation as my H is.)

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Oh, wait Orchid! You are right after all! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Just after I hit the "add reply" button on that last post he phoned. I didn't answer though. He's just getting home from the bar, probably nice and drunk. That, and I'm distancing myself from him!! I'm waking up and being smart!!

Jen