Stunned Dad can I ask you some questions? I read some of your posts/story about what happened with your W-I would like your opinion about my past situation-maybe I just need confirmation from someone objective--would you be willing to respond-my initial story is under general questionsII-"unbelievable story"last reply dated 4/14-let me know. thank you!

It would be my pleasure to help another MB anyway I can....I've gotten far more than I can give back from this board.

claire I tried to sift thru your thread but I am a little lost.

Break it down in some simpler ways.

My first question is did this happen under your reasonable free will or is this something that you were drawn into?

If your drawn in then I suspect the fact that you feel like you let yourself into this mess might signal the fact that you were conditioned for this.

Sounds odd I know. There was a brief period just last week when I suddenly switched to judging my wife by what a logical rational person would do not an abuse victim.

Both my therapist and the material I read on the matter referred to the "Moth To The Flame" sort of destructive behavior.

Not saying you are an abuse victim but in many cases when you allow yourself to be drawn into something that both excites and disturbs/repulses/whatever word fits here then you might indeed have some repressed abuse you are not even aware of.

I will share something very personal here because in an odd sense I can do so from the safety of my computer screen.

I was a bed wetter all the way until pre-teen years. My dad left my mother when I was one years old and mother didn't remarry until I was 10.

My stepfather was stern disciplinarian (not an english teacher so check the spelling). Anyhow he was convinced that it was just laziness that caused my bedwetting. So he proceeded to snap the light on around 11:45 pm every night for a couple of years and drage me out of sleep and into the bathroom. He became more an more fustrated with the failure of his methods to work that he became in many ways abusive. He would hold my face in the washing machine to smell the urine soaked sheets and ask "if this what you want?" He would try to scare/insult/guilt me whatever with comments about my schoolmates finding out about my problem on camping trips..I suppose he thought it was a motivator.

My mother was on the opposite end thinking this was something I would grow out of.

It turned out there was a physical reason for the problem and surgery at 12 solved the problem.

I never recieved an apology from them...perhaps pride but even to this day when we discuss the problem...in reference to my 6 year old son that has the same problem now controlled with meds instead of surgery...they both claimed they were doing what they thought was best to do at that time.

At about 37 years of age after my first born had her first bedwetting incident days before I became restless for no apparent reason around midnight.

A few days later we were at my wife's grandparents house for a family reunion. My wife's now deceased grandfather was a fiesty little man known for his temper. One of the grandkids brought a puppy with them to the get together. And like all puppies he followed a family member into the house. And like all puppies he promptly pees on the carpet. This outrages my wife's grandfather who grabs the puppy shoves its nose into the soiled carpet, swats it with a newspaper and yells "Bad dog-bad dog."

At the time we were living about 2 hours away from the town both our families resided in. On the drive back I told my wife that it really hit me that my stepfather treated me like a dog needing training when he shoved my face in the washing machine when I was a boy the same way her grandfather shoved the puppy's face in the carpet.

Around 2:00am I shot straight out of bed in my heart racing. I was flooded with the overwhelming urge to drive to my parents house 2 hours away....sneak in and suddenly turn on their bedroom lights. I wanted to scare/startle them while they slept the same way I had been snatched from my sleep night after night when I was a boy over 25 years before.

My point in all this is often we suppress things we are not even aware of.

In my case I don't think it ever caused me to act out like my abused wife did. But it did drive me to be a successful person, independent and somewhat scared of trusting people...of course this could have also been a result of not having a father for the first 10 years or so of my life could have been the reason.

So claire this behavior that controls you even though you don't want to do may indeed be the result of some past abuse you are not even aware.

Of course I could be completely off base in which case I sore keyboard fingers with nothing to show for it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Okay let me add some more after rereading the thread.

One I suspect you were preyed on. My wife's dad literally was crawling out the window with his suitcase when my wife got off the school bus in at a drop spot on the side of the house. It was my wife's 13th birthday.

Wife told therapist the OM reminder her of her abusive high school sweetheart and her father.

As to the OM my therapist made a statement that applies to adults as well....child molesters KNOW which children will tell or cry out and which ones will not. Its a pathetic social skill they have. Likewise sexual predators seem to have the same sort of radar too. In your case the fact he and she knew you were not happy in your marriage was their clue to try and move in. Suspect you shared more and more personal feelings regarding your unhappy marriage as time went by. Perhaps even comments regarding your sex life with either of them. Since they go for 3-somes I am pretty sure she is a sexual predator or at least an enabler for her husband. He and her probably talked about your situation repeatedly.

The OM in my wife's affair was actually a long time acquaintance. He played the sympathetic Joe for the longest time. But when my wife starting talking about our sexual issues regarding intimacy he started moving in. It took almost 8 months of pressing her for sex to finally break her down. He was all attentive to that point but once he had her he turned real quick into a user.

After the I discovered partial evidence of their affair he only had on concern---did I think I might talked to his wife. It was nearly 6 weeks later before evidence of a physical affair was undeniable. Yet he never called to see how she was holding up much less try to get her the moment I became suspicious. He even told my wife "when this is all over you will hate me." My wife scoffed at the notion at first but later when the fog lifted she knew she had been played or perhaps more specific preyed. To the very end wife says he repeatedly told her he was the love or his life. Then turned tail and ran when the light of day threatened to shine on him.

stunned...-thank you so much for responding, yes, I realize my story is lengthy (isn't everybody's?),I'm going to try and put some order to this and answer your ?'s.First, 1 year ago when
all this came out the counselor I was going to for
the first few months was trying to get at why I would "allow" myself to be put in such situations
i.e.3-some,group sex(the 4 of us in hot tub 3x)-to
my knowledge/recollection I was never abused as a
child or adult.This leads me to my childhood/upbringing briefly so I don't over-detail you (send me your bill for therapy!!).My Mother died from breast cancer when I was 8-my Father raised the 3 of us (I'm in the middle)-he (my Dad)was a very dominant/HUGE figure in my life-I was extremely close to him, adored him-I was also teased as "the favorite"-My Dad became
very successful (monetary)with his business (self-employed/self made)no education (dropped our of school in 8th grade)grew up in the depression.My Dad died when I was 34 (about 9yrs ago)-my life was never the same.I was married (from 22yrs of age),I always relied on my Dad, for monetary,guidance,opinions,on and on.When he died
I felt like a was missing a limb-I know this sounds stupid but I really looked up/admired him.
Well, moving along, I inherited a decent amt of $-
a yr later my H&I built a HUGE,pricy house on a golf course(1995)-1yr later, the neighbors next door built an ever HUGER with all the fancy/elaborate stuff.They owned a security(security guards for business/special events)
company and a funeral home,they had just begun making big money.He (OMM)very competitve,arrogant,
yet funny/charming/witty, not educated(HS dropout)self-made, dominant-we meet them, the first thing
my H says to me after "geez who does he remind you of"?(My Dad,in some ways).Well, 6yrs goes by,
my H never really cared for them next door-but I
became very close to her(alot of time spent together)she was always "an open book"about their
sex life (constant/daily/2x a day)she was pretty
boastful about their lifestyle-she always was joking/interested in women (their bodies etc.)she herself had a horrible body image(always dieting),she constantly was sharing her envy of my body ("your'e so thin. . .if I had your body I
would be wearing this or that)on and on for 5 yrs!!Finally, 4yrs ago the 4 of us take a Las Vegas trip (yes them on the 1st night hired a hooker for a 3-some)they said they had NEVER done
anything like that before-he(herH)couldn't believe she would consent(but knew she wanted a woman)and she got herself very drunk to do it-she totally shared the whole experience the next morn.Anyway, we (myH&I)did the same thing the next night (different hooker).Ever since that happened the sex talk and inuendos were constant,
especially if she was drinking(he NEVER)drank alcohol he was always in control.You can sense where this is going-3yrs ago we bought their hot
tub-1 month after she walked over(with a bottle of wine)we got drunk (I am NOT a drinker)and in we went.I do believe they (she sort of mentioned it a couple times)fantasized about me in bed-they loved it, a fantasy come true.They knew I was unhappy/conflicts in my marriage.She would say to me, "I just want to give you joy, you deserve it".Little did she know her H fantasized/pursued
me for months before he finally approached me 1 week after 9/11-starting calling several times a day-finally ended up on his boat, then a full blown EA/PA.He said all the right things-you've heard them all on this website-it's been quite an
eye-opener for me.Flowers delivered (at my job where my H wouldn't see them)expensive watch etc.,His "plan"was the 3 of us("she'll come around to the idea"he told me)finally convincing her (manipulated her to think it was her idea)to a 3-some at a hotel after a fancy restaurant.Here's another crazy thing (like there isn't enough)he is publically known in the twin cities!I have to stop typing now reliving all of this depresses me and gives me the urge to call her and tell her about her H(his cunning/devious
behavior).During our A I asked him many times, "don't you feel bad?" his flat answer quikly "NO".Is this Man capable of loving-do you think he really loves his W like he says?Is he capable of falling back in love with her like he kept telling her "I worship you/adore you"blah,blah,blah.Is this woman still living in her fantasy world(he told me "she lives in a fantasy".Well, I need to take a break-respond if
you feel you can offer some suggestions to the memories I have to live with now.thanks for reading if you got this far.

Child molesters have families. Sexual predators have spouses.

Now on to you specifically.

You can't say whether you have or haven't any repressed memories because well there repressed.

Wife knew but disassociated from her teenage abuse...you know things like I am stronger than this or it was years ago I should be able to just get over it.

BUT NEVER acknowledge the preteen molesting at the her hands of an uncle in law. When all of this starting coming out she was like "How could I have forgotten this". I mean she recanted the shows and the clothers he liked to wear and this happened when she was 9 or 10. New what cologne he liked to wear and the couch was cold because it was leather or vinyl look alike leather. Recalled that he often wore silk jogging shorts that were the rage back then even a specific light Carolina Tar Heel pair. Yet until her shell cracked wide open was certain no sort of abuse occurred prior to her early teenage years.

claire not a therapist or a trained professional but it doesn't take one to see you have abandonment issues. Both parents abandon you though thru death it was not the conventional abandonment like a father leaving in divorce.

Creates an unusual high need on your part to make people happy because subconciously you fear they may abandon you.

You also claim to have a very domineering parent. My wife's mother is very domineering to the point I finally had to pull aside and setup boundaries including ones on behalf my wife to my MIL's surprise.

Domineering parents or parent often condition their children to do what they are told or what is expected of them.

So you have some very common problems.

Now keep in mind I don't think anyone ever had a completely NORMAL/HEALTHY upbringing. All parents have flaws, life sometimes isn't kind to some folks and so on. In fact I doubt there exist a true functional family in the purest sense of the word. And yet the vast majority of people "function" as adults without the issues you are facing.

So I am not saying what happened to you as a child automatically dictates how you will behave as an adult. Just pointing out that you have been conditioned to behave a certain way. Some grow out of it. Others do not find themselves in situations where that conditioning comes into play regarding their behavior.

My wife wasn't out looking to have an affair. She had rejected many straight forward advances. But along comes someone that subconciously reminds her of her father...see the link..and it happened. Took nearly 15 years of marriage and right "wrong" person to make it happened. It took someone who would not take no. Who in the begginning would appeal to her need to make others happy (abandonment and abuse--"if I am a good person then you won't abuse me") and her inability to resist doing what she was told.

I think you might benefit tremendously from some IC independent of what you and your husband do.

hi stunned-thanks for reading thru that long/maybe
somewhat confusing story--I haven't been to IC since last summer--became too expensive, I've tried to read as much as possible and examine my
life so far-thoughts of forgiveness,honesty(to my H),a lot of processing what happened to me is just
starting to settle and get my life back together-
it's been difficult not only with my family but
people in our community know/gossip it's definitely been a lesson/test in faith and courage to keep moving forward.I wonder sometimes if I should ever contact his W(her&I were best friends)and tell her what I know about her H's
"other"activities-do you have an opinion?Oh also,
from your last reply with all I've told you are
you thinking predator all the way or did he get
emotionally attached to me like he claimed(many times)?

If not a predator definitely a user. Think about he forced the issue of threesome supposedly against his wife's desire too.

So he is a me first type of person. Keep in mind sex is not always about the physical aspect of it but mental as well.

Was he trying to build up his image as a man at the expense of those that cared about him?

Did he get a rush out of getting both of you to do things you were opposed to?

Did he feel empowered by having two woman cater to him?

You know rape is not about sex its about power....some sex when abusive or harmful to an reluctant participant is abusive too.

Complex is the most damaging form of rape. It also is the most difficult to treat. Complex rape involves someone very close...often a boy/girl friend or sweethear...is slowly progressive. And compared to stranger rape involves a huge element of making the victim feel guilty or that they wanted or deserved to be treated the way they were. My wife said she blamed herself for still going out with her highschool sweetheart knowing what he might want to do on any given night. Blamed herself for going to a place where her highschool sweetheart could bring in his friend to rape her. Statements like if I had fought harder...totally illogical given the fact she weighed less than 100lbs and both of the boys weighed at least 160...allow the victim to remain just that a victim rather than a survivor.

IF and I can only guess he has done this before he knows full well the impact of his actions. So yes I think he is a predator if he uses people for his own perverted needs...now the question is to what extent you contributed to this. Is does take two but if one is pulled into something and the other leaps into it then the blame is not equal.

<small>[ April 22, 2003, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: stunned-dad ]</small>

Stunned-never felt "forced" but manipulated, both his W and I--he kept saying to her "you got everything you wanted i.e.beatiful house,no limit on spending,clothes,trips,fancy cars,housekeepers.
..why can't you give me this one thing?"very manipulative--she was telling him she wanted to experience another woman and trusted her H--she even asked me over coffee when she was contemplating a 3thing--she asked "you're okay with this right?you wouldn't fall in love with him right?he has a family"well, we were already involved for months in a EA/PA.I was working downtown retail and was yelling at him about some
of the "sexual" things they were experimenting (she of course divulged these things to me)I yelled at him "what is wrong with you...you do that with her...then turn around and do stuff with me" definitely getting the best of both worlds(and her&I were allowing it)-he calls her up yells at her, makes her feel like she's the bad guy with a big mouth--4 hours later the 2 of them show up right when I'm getting out of work-(his W thought this was a coincidence and he was taking her out for lunch DA!),we go have lunch,
he announces well ladies tomorrow is my B-day,I
would like to do something special--she was shocked and hurt,downed 2 cocktails quickly and went along.She excused herself to the restroom, I
said to him,"how did you get this to happen?"he said, "abracadabra"--I know this is a repulsive story, I need to forget about it-that is actually
just one example of several situations of deception and manipulation for his personal gain.
I think I'm starting to believe I'm better off without someone so cunning-how does his W feel now? I heard she told her friend after all this got exposed "well I got my H back"what does that say for her self-esteem.She told me the last time I spoke with her "I feel so betrayed"but she never
really knew the depth of what her H is capable of
and probably never will. I almost pity her. Well
enough thinking about the past--I'm going outside for a bike ride with my kids-I know for sure that's real.thanks for your time-respond again if
you have time.