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I never have much to say to you because you are always feeling what I'm feeling and saying exactly what I want to say.

I've been thinking alot about the OW, wanting to write her a letter. However, I've realized that she and I don't even speak the same language. It would not even do any good. She could not possibly understand moral concepts. The same for your OW. I'm sure you can spend your time doing better things than writing to her. I've also realized that she would use it as a means of getting sympathy, beating treated bad by the "wicked wife whom I rescued you from".

Someone told me "if you get in the mud with pigs, you're gonna get dirty".

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learnin -
The thing about WS's not having a conscience is the hardest part for me to comprehend. I can't imagine what it's like to live with yourself while tearing your family apart. The WS HAS to feel the guilt SOMETIMES, don't they?

Although I don't consider myself a full-blown codependent, I'm listening to the tape of Codependent No More by Beattie. The book reinforces the concepts of detachment from the person who is causing you pain, and of taking care of yourself. It seems that Plan B is designed to do these things, too. When we get to Plan B, detachment from WS and taking care of ourselves (and our children) is really all we can do.

I've been in Plan B 6 months, I still have triggers, but inside me I know I'm going to make it. It looks like you're going to make it, too, learnin. Think about how much you've done for so long w/o your WH. You must be a strong woman. You want WH back for all the reasons you told him not to leave, but if he decides not to come back, you'll be OK. Some days are better than others, but overall we're moving forward.

I hope you sleep well tonight.
Lablady

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Lablady and Learnin:

Don't forget about me. I'm in your club although I'm considering myself a PLAN B failure these days.

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Hey guys,
LL, Mim, MM, Thanks for the positive thoughts and support. Yeah, I know deep down, under the pain of rejection and humiliation, that I'm strong and that I'll make it.
I just still have a lot of crap to wade through first!
Too late on the letter Mimi, it's sent. Want to read it? I know OW probably won't get it, but I feel better...
Here it is:
I'm so glad that WH's life has really turned around for the better since he met you. Let's see,
He's apart from his kids and everything else that ever meant anything to him.
He's unemployed.
He's going bankrupt.
He's been accused of being a drug dealer.(by her H)
There's a court order prohibiting him from being around your kids.
He's involved in the middle of someone else's divorce.
He's lost the respect of friends and family.
He's going to quit the union, blow his pension that he has worked so hard for for 2o yrs. and lose his retirement benefits. What about health insur. for his family?
His family now qualifies for food stamps, yeah!
I guess being an adultere really has it's benefits!
Together, WH & I could have worked through these things, the way families do in hard times, but like this, it is just humiliating for everyone. His kids go without, while he keeps an apartment, expenses, a girlfriend...real nice!
You both have such a solid foundation on which to build your future relationship! If you love him so much then you should be happy to accept the crap that comes with him, like his creditors calling. Oh, yeah, that's the stuff only wives are good for, the mistress should be protected from all that. I've had to explain the car repossession process to a 16 yr. old, in case they come looking for the van he's driving! See I made a vow for better or worse and this certainly qualifies as "worse". But I remember all the good in WH and what we had and I am not ready to give up on that. I have something to fight, for my children, our family, our history, our future.
What are you fighting to hold onto? Your respect? You had no right to step into my marriage and help to end it. That is why Adultery is wrong, of course it is going to ruin families, cause pain and confusion for everyone involved! Our marriage had no chance at all once you entered the picture! WH would have come haome and I'm certain we would have been able to work on our marriage.
He doesn't seem happy to me! But I suppose if the sex is good...
I suppose he has to convince himself and everyone else, that you are really worth the trouble and pain it is causing everyone or else he'd h'd have to admit that it was all a huge mistake. And apparantly he just doesn't have the strenght or the courage to do that yet. And of course, because I have not "moved on" and "accepted" the fact that the man I loved so much and who I truly believed loved me has abandoned his family, then I must be a psycho! I can hear it all now! My marriage actually meant something to me, and just because yours was s@#t, don't insult me by thinking I should be over it by now! Then I guess in comparison, if you & my H were to break it off now then you should get over it in what 2 days? What the hell do you have invested in this?
(I put in a bit about his kids and what he's missing on a daily basis and then..)I'm sure he won't miss it at all though, he has so much more in his life now!
He is going to miss out on so much with his children. I just can't imagine giving any of that up for ANYONE! Would you? I mean what kind of person can do that? Would you be able to just walk away from your children's lives? How can he just sit down there day after day, week after week and not even know or care what his children are doing, saying, feeling...
I am not giving up on WH. I stilllove him and know that we can both recommit and make our family whole again. If we had a horrible marriage or if I even thought that WH was not happy for a very long time, then I would say, GO! But that was not the case.
He may think he is happy now...eventually he will realize what he gave up for you.

The end.

I know these words and the sarcasm are wasted on her, she won't get it, but like I said, I feel better.

Got to go. S waiting to chat to friends!
Talk again later.

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Looking forward to our annual 4th of July trip!
The kids are excited too. I'm a little down that this will be the first time without WH, this was always such a fun trip for him, seeing family and his old friends.
I'm going and will hold my head high, this is a test for me, to have fun, to be proud, to face friends for the first time....to show the kids that life goes on, we can have fun without Dad.
Have a Happy 4th!

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Learnin:

You can do it! I've found that it's great coming out of the closet. You will receive lots of love and reassurance.

I have felt the exact same urge as you, to call WS and say "Snap out of it". It seems like it should be just that easy. However, probably like you I've realized that my old husband is GONE FOREVER. This other thing called WS is an ALIEN SUBSTITUTE!

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HI , wanted you to know I am still lurking and you are doing great ..

I really wanted to wish you a happy 4th of JULY go and have a great time it WILL be WS lose..

If this isn't to much ,I don't want you to get hopes up high but wanted to share somthing with you ..

I to go to a annnual FREINDS BBQ party with family every year ,,AND the 4th that my H was gone I picked up with the kids and went .

BUT before I went HE called to ask to see them for an hour or so before I said, yes and he picked them up and I went to freinds house ..

HE had to drop them off there ,, when he got there all there welcomed him to stay ...

NOW when we talk about things ,,he said, he wanted to cry that day cause he knew what he was missing for himself and kids and the hole "package "

he drove away with a knot in his stomach ,, OW could not be all that to him , could not take the place of that life that he once had and knew he could have again .

MY point WS will regret this and will think of it , weather he ever tells you or not he will be thinking those thoughs ..

HAVE FUN DRINK AND BE MERRY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Plan B is out the window. Let me explain.

First of all, the kids were in the car waiting to leave on our trip, I answered the phone going out the door...it was WH, he wanted to let me know that he got a job, was starting the next day...I said that's good, where, but told him I had to go, I was starting to cry, he said, my father called him to blast him(my family is really making me angry!) and I just said yeah, I heard, I've got to go...

I got home from our trip today, we had a good time. It was definately different without WH, but still fun, relaxing. Spent good time with friends and WH"s family. Got some good support for hanging in there.

We weren't home 20 min. when WH called. Starts out by asking how the trip was, I just said fine, do you want to talk to the kids?, He said NO, and then starts to blast me over the letter sent to OW.
WH said,"I was having sex with OW when the mail came, I saw your letter and threw it out. You are a F*#2king A#**hole, (and lots of other nice things). He was pretty angry.Then he asked if I got the Insurance check he has been waiting for to pay Bankruptcy Lawyer that they sent to me by mistake. I said that I did, and he wanted to know what I was going to do with it.
I said, gee, now I'm not sure, I was going to just forward it to the lawyer but maybe I'll pay all those Bills you can't pay. I asked him not to call me again.

He called 2 or 3 more times. Asking what I was going to do with the check? I said please don't call me. I said I'll pay the lawyer.

We ended up getting into it. He called me psychotic, wacko, I should take "more" medication, I need to accept it, he love's OW, I need to move on, he wanted to make this easy on everyone but now I'm making it difficult, he never loved me, he was 22 yrs. old, I was pregnant, it was just a business arrangement...the kids will be fine, he can still be a good father.....He was yelling, swearing...

I know I should have just hung up, but I was upset, told him I didn't believe him, he couldn't have faked it all those years, the words, the actions, the caring, the love.

He said, he just didn't want to hurt my feelings...(for 20 yrs!!!), knew I'd be psychotic( gee I was always pretty stable!), He's not coming back, he cheated on me twice and would do it again, why would I want a lying cheater(very sarcastic), who abandons his children...

It went on and on, he was yelling, I was crying, I said I was just trying to save our marriage and our family...

He said he thinks the kids would actually be happy with him!(permanenttly) He definately wants them in 2 weeks for the weekend. I said yes but they were not to meet OW!

It was awful!! I need Plan B! I can't do this anymore! I can't hear him say such mean things to me anymore. I know he loved me!!

I'm a mess. I can't believe he's the way he is now. Maybe he really does love her. Maybe I should just let him go, divorce, heal and help my children with this as best I can.

Is he so angry because OW is pissed about the letter, did she LB, or does he really just want me out of his life and he is willing to do what he has to make me hate him.

I do hate him, I hate who he is right now, I hate that he is choosing her and all it's complications over me and the kids.

It was horrible.. I have to be done with this.

I can't accept that he really hates me this much. (But I know WH, he is now feeling badly abut everything he said) Or maybe I'm just fooling myself, maybe he really doesn't care anymore, because he wants her so much. I don't deserve to feel this way. How can I move on thinking that he really never loved me, that I was so stupid to think he "adored" me! How do I trust my own feelings ever again? Am I that stupid, blind?

I need to be done with this.

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Listen learnin,

Anyone having s3x and allows the incoming mail (what a pun!! ) to distract him/her just goes to show that their s3x wasn't that great.... what else can distract him...... a commercial, phone call, fax machine, incoming rodents?!?!?! LOL !!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

He is in the fog and you know it. Now realize this so that it lessens the pain. Then work on a good plan B and implement it . You need that now more than ever. When he grumbles, remind him that OW needs to meet his needs, he just needs to give you $$ and security for the children.

Write this stuff down. You need to realize, remember and recall how much he is putting your through. If you were to read this same story on another MBer thread....what would you think?

Learnin' his A energy won't last. It is doomeed and they both know it.....so they are trying desparately to make you angry so it fuels their A. Their A is running out of energy so don't let them take yours.

hugz,
L.

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Yeah, Orchid, the humour of WH's remark was not lost on me!!

I know the Fog rhetoric, I just don't know if I can believe anymore. He is so adamant about loving OW, never feeling this way...I'm beginning to doubt.

But I know I need Plan B to spare myself this grief and pain, I have better ways to spend my energy.

I know I was a good wife and good mother and that we had a good and loving marriage...he will not convince me otherwise, I am not that stupid and blind...(although sometimes I have my doubts!)

I know that if I read this as another MB'er's post I would think, you need to get control again...I would also think, why are you fighting so hard for this moron?
But I remember...

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Learnin:

Your WS was speaking from the ALIEN SCRIPT. It's the speech they give when the OW is mad at them. In their FOG , they become desperate to get back in the good graces of the OW. It's just like the alcoholic needing a drink. They get mad and frustrated when they can't get it and blame you for pouring the liquor down the drain.

My WS said the EXACT same things when the OW was mad at him for coming home for those three weeks. Before he left, he told me all that stuff- he never loved me, get over it. I remember him saying, "Face it the love isn't there". Three days later he was wanting to be with me (SF) and give me that line about wanting to eventually get back with me, in other words, start cake-eating again. I asked him about "not loving me" and he said he was "mad" that day-that he did not mean what he was saying.

This weekend I was thankful to find card after card that I had saved throughout 26 years of him professing his love for me.

Learnin, we have to remember that they are insane in their fog. They try to get us to believe that we are the ones who are insane. That way they do not have to take a look at themselves. I guess that's what is so good about PLAN B. We get out of their world and do not get tempted into speaking their language or questioning our sanity.

Trust what you know. You know that your WS loved you and still has love for you. He is not showing it now because he is UNDER THE INFLUENCE of her spell or her drug.

I am often wondering and probably so are you, "Why are we putting ourselves through this?" I can understand why so many people give up and move on. The world and mind of the WS is crazy-making. I feel like you do I do not DESERVE this. I say that to myself often these days.

I try to refocus now into believing in myself and disregarding him. That's the only chance we have for reconciliation with our WSes. Using logic or reasoning has no likelihood of working because they are irrational.

I hope it helps to know that it is scripted-that your WS is saying exactly the same things that mine says and other WSes are saying.

By the way, I think your letter had SOME impact. It caused conflict, friction in their relationship. Some reality set in over there. However, it did result in him trying to protect her. That's because he is deep in the fog.

Hang in there! Get back up on the saddle and let's go for a ride! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I've realized that we will have our ups and downs and even big goofs. We are only human and we are going through unimaginable pain and sorrow that NO ONE DESERVES

<small>[ July 07, 2003, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

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The phone calls from WH continued until 10:30 pm last night.
I sent him the Ins. check this morning. Man, was he worked up. I finally hung up for the last time, when he was just chanting over & over..."this is going to get really ugly".
I guess my little letter really ticked someone off! If Ow wasn't ticked over it, then why would he be so over the top angry? Nothing in the letter wasn't true, so it must get to him!

He also called my friend, our go-between, and yelled at her, about me. I told her, that wasn't the intention of her being put in the midddle like that, and she said she told him that, but she said right now she's amused and that she's OK with it. She said she figures if he's yelling at her, he's not yelling at me. But she can handle herself & she's been a good friend.

I'm calling a lawyer today, get something started to protect his pension fund, he's too out of control, angry and unpredictable, I'm afraid he'll do something foolish. I hate to file, but I really have no choice.

I'm tired today, talked to 2 brothers yesterday, at least the lines of communication are open again, for now anyways. They have been lurking here and I asked them to please have the decency to stop!
HI SIS! I know you are the worst offender! THanks for letting me have this place to vent and share my deepest fears and feelings! Hope you enjoyed yourself! Don't make me have to give this up, I don't have a lot left in my life, and I'm really up to my ears with betrayals and trust issues! So please find another way to amuse yourself. If I wanted you to know what was going on in my life, I'd let you know. You had that once and you abused it. So please back off!

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I posted at about the same time you did. Stay tuned until after I read your post.

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Learnin,

I don't have any more to add other than ----Please do not delay going to the lawyer! You do deserve half of that fund and child support out of money from his new job. He's so into it with the OW now that he will want to spend all of his money on her, buy her a present because you have been so mean to her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I've realized that my family can't handle how different that I am now. Since we have changed, family roles have changed and that causes discomfort. I used to be the one in my family who comforted others. Now, they are being called on to comfort me and they don't know how to handle it.

I wish our family members would take a look at themselves and leave us alone if they can't be helpful. I say that all of the time to them, "I simply need your support, not your direction".

<small>[ July 07, 2003, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

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Thanks Mimi,
Yeah this really sucks, but you know, after the pain subsides, and I know it will, we'll be ok.
I worry about the kids, they don't understand how Dad could leave them like this, I know they have to be hurting, even when they won't talk about it. I tried to talking to 12 yr.old last night, told him that WH wants them for a visit in 2 weeks, and he doesn't seem interested in going. Shrugs his shoulders when I ask, and I have to drag it out of him, he doesn't want to go.

WH is simply out of his mind for wanting to trade his family for her! It really blows me away to think of it.

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We are going through THE SAME ISSUES. This must be a syndrome or something.

I realized that my boys are suffering too but in their own unique ways. My 16 year old who is at home is so ANGRY. He tries to talk me out my depression. He is saying that I'm negative all of the time now. I haven't taken the time to realize how different I am. He says it makes him want to "go over there and punch him in the face".
This is opposite than the way he usually is. He used to be my sweet, mild-mannered child. Meanwhile, my 20 year old macho son who is at college called crying saying how sad he is that I am selling his house and that he no longer has a family, etc.

I'm realizing how they are hurting, too.

Meanwhile WS and HIS LADY are somewhere partying ...probably went to the beach this weekend. I see where he made a huge withdrawal out of the bank account.

All of this sucks. You know my word, IT"S AWFUL!

T

<small>[ July 07, 2003, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

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Same thing here MIMI!
My 16 yr.old is angry, calls WH a jerk, but only to me, threatens to call him and tell him off, but doesn't. Also, anytime he and I have normal teenage issues to discuss, he gets upset, uses the situation, saying, "you're not the only one affected by this", a little bit of guilt tripping there, but I try not buy into it. I know he's hurting.

WH taunted me yesterday, saying how He & OW and her kids spent a great 4th at her sisters house!
Yeah, well, you weren't with your kids, aren't you just great!
I'm sure the kids would feel really bad to hear that!

What a jerk! I never would have imagined him to be this cruel!

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Ditto everything you said again.

My WS is a CRUEL JERK!. The worst part of it in my case is that he knows it, admits it and still continues to carry on with his crap.

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learnin -
It seems a lot has happened in a short time, so sorry for you. I'm a Plan B subscriber, too, almost 6 months, very strict, no contact except a couple of emails from WH about finances, and replies from me through our go-between. While I haven't gotten the results I'd hoped for, which is WH coming to his senses and ending his A, I don't miss the emotional scenes like the ones you've endured recently. Sure, I've had some very bad days, but those days have been on MY schedule, not WH's. Plan B has helped me detach from WH, so I can move on with my life if he never comes back.

I like the perspective you've gotten from other posters here, about your letter to OW making her LB, in turn getting your WH mad. If it wasn't such a sad, destructive situation, it would be very funny. You're probably right to see a lawyer if WH is as mad as you think, who knows what he might do. Can you get a separation w/o filing for Dv?

I can empathize with you about the kids. Mine are older, S 25, D 23, but they are hurting, having their worlds turned upside down, too. S called his father last week and told him he washes his hands of him, won't speak to him again. I think he is partially outraged at how immoral his father is, and partially protecting me, seeing himself as the man of the house now. Is your S taking on the man role by threatening to confront his father? Are your kids embarrassed about their father's behavior? Mine are. My D is a conflict avoider, she knows her father is wrong, but she doesn't know what she wants to do about it. She still speaks to him, but not often. She has thanked me many times for being the stable parent. Learnin, your kids will realize that about you, too, that you didn't abandon them, that you tried to keep the family together. How does you oldest S deal with his father?

For me, the hardest part is trying to understand how WH can leave his family, how he doesn't have a conscience strong enough to stop him from hurting his kids. Someday he will realize what he's done, maybe not until he's on his deathbed, but the day will come. Until then I have done nothing to be ashamed of, just like you, learnin. We need to keep ourselves honest, letting our kids see the right way to handle a crisis. Now is the time to step up and do the right thing, no matter how hard it is.

Learnin, try to do a stricter Plan B for yourself. WH can't push your buttons as much if you don't have contact with him.
Lablady

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Thanks Mimi, Lablady,

I definately know why Plan B is necessary, I need to remove myself from the super-charged emotional roller coaster.

It's hard enough to heal without be drawn into the drama everytime OW lb's or whatever goes on their world, her messy D, etc.

My oldest S is struggling with his own hard life lessons, no job, no car to get to a job, a result of his own actions...he doesn't seem to want to be angry at WH, saves that for me, I've been the mean lady for so long, bringing up the kids on my own while H was working away. But I know WH feels badly that he can't even help S out...he did let him take his car for about 3-4 weeks hoping it would help him get a job, but it didn't.

WH's whole world, family, finances is crumbling around him, no wonder he is acting out with anger and cruel words and lack of attention to his kids. He is acting out of guilt.

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