While recently at church, the minister alluded to how Jesus asked us to forgive our enemies. He went on to say that this was probably the most difficult task he had asked any of his followers to do.

In today's society and in particular to those victims of an affair on this forum, how can we find the strength to forgive the OM/OW. We all understand that it is impossible to move forward in recovery without forgiving your spouse, but to forgive the OM/OW is an entirely different issue.

As a victim myself, I am beginning to doubt if I'll ever have the strength to forgive the OM. I confronted him once before on the phone in which I asked him to respect my marriage and do the right thing. As one would expect, he took no merit to my words and showed complete disrespect for myself as well as my wife.

Because it has only been a few weeks since I feel my wife and I have begun (very very slowly) the recovery process, I don't expect myself to have forgiven the OM so soon. Unfortunately, I do run into him ever so often and simply ignore his presence. But......does this give him the false impression that he can do whatever he wants and I won't respond. It takes every ounce of strength not to approach him and make him pay for his intrusion on my life.

Just wandering if anyone else has toyed with this moral debate and would like to get feedback.

Yes, I've toyed with this.

I resisted forgiving OW until I realized that MY pride was controlling me, and once I let go of that pridefulness .... forgiveness was much easier.

BTW, this took at least 2-3 tries before I finally got it right.

I realized I could not hold OW to a different standard than my H .... who I forgave.

Pep

Forgiveness is hard, but as Christians we are called to forgive. My definition of forgivenss (and I hope it conincides with God's) is to give up the right (or the hope) to seek vengance. It doesn't mean that I approve of what happened or that exOW and I will ever become friends. It means that I can see her as one more individual hurt by this hideous affair--even if she didn't willingly enter the affair and I had no option as I was the only one of the three people concerned who wasn't asked for my opinion.

I had a quick prayer that I prayed in my mind each time my thoughts turned to exOW and got ugly. I just asked Christ to forgive through me what I could not forgive in my own human limits. Sometimes I had to pray it dozens of times per day, but I consistently did this and it became less and less frequent that I needed it.

Blessings,
MJ

Good question. Let me give you my experiences in this area. It is not easy! Believe me! And I still have trouble with it. I believe we all do. That's why we're sinners! Let me say, that I believe it's easier to forgive an enemy when you do not have contact with that person. In your case, since you do have occasional contact, I would suggest simply ignoring that person until you know you've forgiven him. What helps me forgive others is looking at them as a lost soul, rather than an enemy.

Those that persecute you are ones who do not truly know the meaning of Jesus' love. I started looking at both my H and the OW as poor, lost souls who were in Satan's strongholds and I have had to keep praying for them to be released from his grasp & returned to God. This helped me to forgive both my H and the OW. Of course, I haven't seen the OW at all since this all happened so when I see her, everything I just said coud go out the window at that moment, but the great thing about God is, he understands, & he doesn't put a time frame on forgiveness, although he immediately forgives us, he just simply says to forgive. If it helps you to ignore him, then so be it. What he takes from those actions is his choice. He knows what he did is wrong, and will have to face God some day. The only soul you can save at this point is YOU.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It takes every ounce of strength not to approach him and make him pay for his intrusion on my life.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This would be considered revenge & although we instinctively feel that way, Jesus calls us to go above & beyond those feelings, to walk in the spirit. It isn't easy, it's very hard to do, but when we pray & get closer to God, we will have the ability to do it.

vaoptimist

Well, I can tell you I haven't forgiven the OM, he was/is a predetor, he seeks out women who are hurting, lonely, and vulnerable, he manipulates these women into emotional ties, then get his selfish fulfillment of SF. From what I learned he has done this since the sencond year of his marriage, and that from what I understand was over 30 years ago. In the emails I read he was proud, and arrogant at what he was doing. When he turns to God and excepts Jesus, and asks for forgiveness, he has mine also.

Of course I no longer seek vengence, I have prayed and turned it over to God, not that I don't have those thoughts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> I do think he needs to pay a price for what he has done to all the women he has used. But that is up to God.

Maybe that is a form of forgiveness, I don't know. I do feel that he is paying a price for it now, just a feeling.

Oh yeah I struggled with this one big time. Pep, I eventually got to the same place you did.

She seems to despise me, has said cruel, hateful, and hurtful things about me, claims to know all about my personal character, and more - and she doesn't even KNOW me. Some things even seemed to be attempts to somehow thwart our recovery or cause me to doubt my H. In the early stages of discovery and recovery, it was so hard being aware of this and trying to reconcile within myself my reactions to how I was feeling about myself, the A, my husband, and her. All I can say is, prayer is a powerful thing.

I can honestly say today that I harbor no ill feelings. I may understand some things that she doesn't see in herself. But, then I don't know her either.

So, as for forgiveness... yes I've experienced the state and feeling of forgiveness. I, too, believed I could not hold my H to a higher standard. And forgiveness came knowing that it might never matter to either one of them. But it mattered to me. I knew I could never stay married to my H if I could never forgive. I have forgiven my H and he knows that. I have forgiven the xOW. There's no way for her to know that, but it didn't happen for her to know about or care about, it happened for me. I am truly at peace with it. thanks be to God...

this wasn't an issue for me. and it wasn't a matter of forgiving vs. not forgiving. that process to me just didn't matter.

what did matter was recovering my marriage and i felt that directing one ounce of energy -- in the form of either forgiveness or ill will -- toward a man who didn't respect me, my marriage or my wife was a waste.

honestly, he is as about as close to a non-entity to me as another person can be.

(although, i must admit that i was recently reading a novel whose main character shared om's name and i did get a little tired of reading it again and again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Silverthorn:
<strong>Of course I no longer seek vengence ...
Maybe that is a form of forgiveness, I don't know. I do feel that he is paying a price for it now, just a feeling. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I pretty much don't view forgiveness as my venue. I like Silverthorn's comments - that's pretty close to how I feel this last go-round.

With the first two affairs, the other women didn't know me. I don't think they owed me a thing, and I never felt any anger towards them. They didn't lie to me or betray me, my H did!

The last one was a bit different - the OW was also a friend of mine, who did lie and betray my trust. I had some harder feelings towards her, but in the end, I believe it is just not my responsibility to make her pay for her sins. I truly believe we each pay the price for our actions, and I quickly stopped spending emotional energy on her. (Of course, I can say that easily 18 months after the fact. There was that day the first week after D-Day when I picked up the dining room table and threw it through the sliding glass doors in a fit of rage. Definitely NOT the good old days!)

As I have said recently this was a big issue for me and impacted our recovery in that I was lbing about it. I have actually been more angry at OW then at WS for many reasons, including the fact that OW was such a good friend for so long. I finally had to let go although I am not at the forgiving stage yet. I just realized that my rage was not effecting OW at all she had no remorse but it was effecting me and what I was trying to accomplish. So now when a trigger hits I think about how worked up I will get and it will lead nowhere.

km4
me 39
ws 44
married 17 years
two boys 11 and 4
ow was my best friend.

I'm with KS41. OW did not have the power to hurt me. Other than common respect of one human being to another she owed me nothing. I DO HOLD WH TO A HIGHER STANDARD!! He promised to love and cherish me, and he betrayed me.

OW still has no clue she did anything wrong. Can everyone say "amoral?" She takes whatever she wants without consideration for anyone but herself. She doesn't want or need my forgiveness.

H allowed the A to happen and to continue. He and no one else caused my pain, and he is the only one in need of my forgiveness.

I think this is an interesting topic...I think we have to forgive people if we are ever going to move forward in our relationships. I am struggling with a similar issue now, and I'd like ask any Jewish members on the board to respond to this one.

I am a Catholic married to a Jew, and my wife is talking separation / divorce. This is response to my not meeting needs, angry outbursts, etc. I have tried everything to reconcile, including asking for forgiveness in both a secular and spiritual way. As far as I know there is no OM, and have been no OW on my part.

As a Christian I know the awesome power of forgiveness, but sometimes I'm not sure that my spouse looks at it the same way I do. Any Jewish MB'ers out there care to respond, share ideas, etc?

First off, what does forgiveness mean?

To the OW in our case I believe she wanted me to forgive her in the sense that I did not hold her accountable for her contributions for the A problems I had to endure.

I could NOT do that.

In the WS mind, he initally wanted me to forgive and forget. I could not do that either.

What the elders told me that adultery is the one sin where scripturally God give the right to forgive to the spouse. RE: the sin is against the M and God.
However, once the spouse does forgive, then it is wrong for the BS to throw it back in the Xws face. Not forget but use it as a weapon. I still talk about the A issues that bother me with the now H and it is idfferent. I now get his cooperation on most of the answers and he tells me when he is not able to answer most of the time due to confusion and regret on his part.

Also I can not forgive an OW who thinks she did nothing wrong in having the A. Who continues to protray herself as a victim while she spreds her legs and exposes other body parts on the internet.

Forgiveness can also go hand in hand with being repentant. If the Ws and OP are not repentant, then they can not demand to be forgiven.

It is ok to be forgiving but God does not ask us to be suckers and victims of the OP. This is certainly the time to be "cautious as serpents yet innocent as doves".

JMHO,
L.

First off, forgiveness is for the FORGIVEE, not the forgiver. Its purpose is to bring the forgivee back into the fold. One does not have to FORGIVE the other person in order to release bad feelings towards that person.

I think that forgiveness is always an obligation *IF* the person sincerely ASKS for forgiveness and repents. Otherwise, there would be no purpose in it whatsoever, except to make the forgiver feel lordly and magnaminous for benighting their forgivee with something the forgivee doesn't even give a damn about.

If you "forgive" someone who doesn't give a damn about your forgiveness then you are just doing it for selfish reasons, ie: to feel good. Its sort of like dumping a box of old clothes off at the corner, and feeling all holy for it, not caring whether anyone got or benefited from the gift. But hey, it sure made me "feel" all holy and sanctimonious! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

The Bible's standard is not to dole out forgiveness like cheap candy in a selfish attempt to make ourselves feel all holy. It is to be given to those who ASK for it and have repented. But forgiving someone who doesn't want, care or even know about your magnamity is pretty fruitless, might as well forgive the air.

Luke 17:3-4 ......."If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."

My pastor says we are to forgive even if they do not ask for forgiveness.

If we don't forgive or hold grudges, we put ourselves on a higher level then God.

Many a child has had to forgive an alcoholic or abusive parent even though that parent did not ask or 'deserve' forgiveness.
That is the ONLY way we can heal, to forgive the ones that have hurt us even though they may seem unworthy of our forgiveness.

Have you read "A Boy called IT"...It has a lot of good advice about forgiveness.

So good luck to you in forgiving the persons involved!
Sincerely, Sarah

<small>[ November 26, 2003, 07:19 AM: Message edited by: Sarie ]</small>

Sarie, I think many a child has had to release their anger at an alcoholic parent, but many alcoholic parents do not require or want forgiveness, especially when they feel they have done nothing wrong.

For me, I use the biblical standard of forgiveness. God does not pass out forgiveness like cheap candy to those who haven't asked and doesn't expect us to do so either.

Because, unless requested or desired by the forgivee it is really only done so we can "feel" good as it benefits the forgivee in no way.

Maybe one day I'll forgive OM, but for now I just can't seem to do that. Some days I feel sorry for him because he never learns and continues to hurt himself. But then, I look at all the lives he's hurt, mine, my W's, my kids, his kids, his W, and several other families(he's a serial cheater). I just can't seem to forgive at this point....

Here is a quote from ForeverHers&#8217; post to Silverthorn and Poe a few months back on the topic of forgiveness. Just thought it will be insightful to share it here... His interpretation of forgiveness according to Script also reflects my own viewpoint and perspective on this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know, it's complex but it has a lot to do with how I intrepret Scripture. For example, "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." Seems rather cut and dried doesn't it? "Do good to those who sin against you", or words to that effect.

"Vengence is mine, saith the Lord, I will repay."

The bottom line for me is that there can be NO forgiveness without confession and repentance. I "forgive" in the sense that I know the OM is a heathen, controlled by the flesh and Satan, and is eternally lost unless someday he comes to accept Jesus Christ. In other words, he was acting as I might expect anyone to act who does not have Christ as Lord of their life. I release the anger and desire for vengence to God. I let what God may do supercede any "fleshly desire" I might have for vengence. If you want to term that "forgiveness" then I'm okay with that, but I don't forgive in the truest biblical sense of the word.

So the "forgiveness", if you will, is taking God at His word and turning the OM's fate over to God. God has not forgiven him and won't until such time as he receives Christ. Neither do I forgive him, I merely release him from my mind with respect to seeking vengence and hatred. He was, and still is, my mortal enemy. Were he to attack my family again, I would take all appropriate steps to protect the ones I am sworn before God to protect. And that includes physical force if necessary.

Silverthorn, you also need to understand that I would NOT have forgiven my wife for her affair IF she had not confessed it God, repented, and sought His forgiveness. The sin was certainly against me and our marriage, but it was first and foremost a sin against God. I don't need to reiterate the "list" of "sinner types" that WILL NOT be in heaven. They will NOT be forgiven. There is only ONE way to be forgiven and it takes action on the part of the sinner, not the one sinned against. Forgive seventy times seven times applies to 1)fellow Christians, and 2)to Christians who are convicted of their sin, confess, repent, and seek forgiveness. ONLY then are we commanded by God to forgive as He forgives. He is the model in love and in forgiveness.

It is a terrible thing to be left in the wrathful hand of the living Lord, but I trust God to do what is right according to God's standards, not mine. But I do NOT forgive him anymore than God forgives him. THAT action awaits, perhaps until the day he dies, his action that allows for forgiveness. Without it, there will be no forgiveness. To do less belittles the need for Christ's sacrifice on the cross. It's the old "blanket forgiveness" lie that Satan likes to use to confuse those who don't understand the fullness of God's attributes and only like to focus on the "nice ones." Evil IS evil, and there IS such a thing as "righteous anger." "Be angry, but in your anger do not sin." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ November 26, 2003, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: Suzet ]</small>