today was a little better...still lots of tension....I can tell he doesn't want me to do anything for him personaly...is this normal for WS's? Doesn't like for me to pack his lunch or make dinner for him.....must feel guilty because he doesn't care anything about me...I really don't know if he is going to follow through with his plans to move out or not...says he is not in contact with OW other than what is necessary at work...I really don't know...how do you learn to stop obsessing with this all of your waking hours? I can hardly stay focused well enough to work...it is very hard right now.....does anyone have any advice on what to do to make the days easier? I am deperate for some direction/suggestions....Question to WS out there....When you don't feel anything for your spouse and you haven't left home...what are some of the most difficult issues you have with spouse? Is everything spouse does wrong? It seems like regardless of what I do, it isn't right. Your thoughts and advise...I don't want to push him out the door...<P>------------------<BR>always-faith4us

Hi Faith4us, Glad to hear your day was a little better. My WS says he is leaving also but I am not sure if he will follow through. I know how difficult it is to keep obsessing about it all day and I am not sure how to stop, I try to keep busy in the day and I am looking forward to going back to work that will take my mind off this I hope, I have been on vacation for 3 weeks that pisses him off, you think he would be happy I was home for the kids. Also why don't you try walking that really helps with stress I try to walk every chance I get even if it's just for 20-min. even during your lunch hr. at work try to walk I do and it really helps also try writing a journal about how you feel everyday and what is going on that helps too. Have a glass of wine take a hot bubble bath and watch a good movie(no love Stories lol)or read agood book, some of the books they mention on this site sound very good I am looking into getting them myself. Well I am not the WS but I can tell you that it seems that my WS is annoyed at me all the time, He hates when I take off from work or if I have vacation days and I am home. Nothing I do or say is right with him right now, I don't understand WS logic but just know that you are not alone, I feel your pain. How long have you been M?and I don't think you mentioned kids do you have children? Stay strong and keep posting Love Sally

Glad to hear from you Sad Sally....I have been married for 15 years in June...guess what? H didn't even get me a card...he talked to OW on our anniversary though...We have 3 wonderful boys ages: 14, 9, and 2. I am older than my husband (6 years) and his OW is 3 years younger than him....I do walk and it helps also I stay busy with the children's activities....Did I remember correctly that you have been going through this for a couple of years now? I sure hope we can resolve our situtation quicker than a couple of years but if that's what it takes...you just don't know do you? I have never been so uncertain about my future in my entire life. It is as though he has died but is still here....It doesn't make any difference what I do, it is wrong...this is really bothering me...I appreciate you responding.....All I know to do is just keep trying not to LBust and pray allot. Good night, I am going to bed ...I will talk to you tomorrow.....God Bless<P>------------------<BR>always-faith4us

I am the BS. And I totally understand your confusion with your H's behaviours and reactions right now. You're feeling lost as to what to do.<P>What struck a chord with me is the lunch and dinner thing you mentioned. Is this something you used to do for him all the time before d-day? If so, then it's probably an LB, and he's considering it to be 'controlling' on your part. Silly sounding, I know. On the other hand, if this is something you're doing as part of your Plan A, then if he's reacting negatively b/c it's something you haven't done for him in a while, it means your plan A is working. Confusing, isn't it?<P>My H was the same way towards me. He hated my controlling behaviours (which in many ways I thought were nurturing to him, but he took them as mothering and smothering). We're in recovery now (3 1/2 months, closer to 4), and a lot of those issues still come up. <P>I found a book (via an online acquaintence of mine) called "The Surrendered Wife" by Laura Doyle. IMO, it's an awful title, but a really good book. It tells you how to be less controlling, and works really well with plan Aing. You can check out the website: <A HREF="http://www.surrenderedwife.com" TARGET=_blank>www.surrenderedwife.com</A> and see what you think. There's a quiz you can take that will tell you whether or not you are controlling ... so long as you're totally honest with your answers! (grin).<P>In no way am I implying that you are. But the lunch and dinner thing reminded me of my situation with my H. And I have VERY controlling behaviours, which I'm proud to say, I'm working on. Check out the site when you have time, and see there's anything there that can help you. It might do for you as it did for me (and others on here), and make something click inside of you that will aid in your plan A efforts.<P>Good luck,<P>Karen<BR>

Hi Faith4us, I found out about H A about 1 month ago, Found a e-mail on the computer, but he was betraying me for at least a year,I was trying to work on the marriage and here he was cheating on me, meeting her in a chat room, and then having a PA. Its like a nightmare and now I get treated like crap. Its so hard on the kids mine are 14,12,9, 2 boys and a girl and they are wonderful and want to do everything I can to keep them from getting hurt.my H OW is 41 and my H and me are 38, she is also M and has a son, she wants out of her M and wants my H to D me so they can live happily everafter, over my dead body.It sure is like grieving when someone you love dies, but ya know the person my H was is gone and it is like grieving, I can only hope and pray for me, you and everybody ob this board that God will help us and our WS to become one again, Good Night and God Bless Sally

Hi <P>I know exactly the way you are feeling. I have been in the same situation, and heard the same kind of talk from my H.<P>Believe it or not, it does get easier. But not for quite a while. This has been a tremendous blow to you and you will go thru stages of grief.<P>Maybe, you are trying just a bit too hard to regain his love you. He may need a little more space. I am sure the guilt is eating away at him, even tho he doesn't show it. As hard as it may be for you, you will have to start and focus on yourself. This was so very hard for me to do. So, I would just pretend and act as if I was focusing on myself, when I was with my H.<P>Do you bring the affair up to him? How are you reacting to him, when with him? Are you down and sad or are you upbeat and smiling.<P>IMO his behaviour is normal.

Hi SS, I'm not a WS but the BS...just wanted to let you know that I'm four months past d-day and my H is terribly angry most of the time. Everything I do is wrong. He criticizes every step I take. I just grin and bear it in hopes that my love and positivity will bring him back. <P>Maintain you Plan A. He'll get angrier while you get better. <P>Hugs

Sorry about your life, no one deserves such things...but then again most ws do not set out to destroy you, it is the complicated outcome of lots of stuff before then. I am a ws, I thought my marriage was over, just a shell, for a long time...after d, my wife was angry, but she said she wanted to try, and has tried....she did LB alot, so maybe I can give you a few thoughts as far as this ws is concerned. I did not like being told I was wrong, or that things could be better, or that it wasn't all her fault, etc. etc. Made no difference, I didn't hate her, I just wasn't in-love and thought it best for us both to go our seperate ways. So her attempts to derail that were threatening. We had seperate bedrooms (for 5 years previous), and did little together. For the first few months she made a stab at no LB (with so so success), but regularly walked about all depressed, and woe is me, and in one way or another guilting me, I did not respond well to that. Or she would say we have to talk, she would go on for hours quizzing me about why, and what can we do, and all her angst (nothing about me) until I would explode. Finally we got with jennifer (harley counselling) and she stopped all that, quit asking for affection, quit expecting (which I felt as demanding) anything positive from me, just took care of business, cried by herself, and stuff gradually improved. The thing is, don't crowd your husband, when you do do something, make it absolutely clear he does not have to respond in any particular way, even acknowledge it, or say thank-you. Your approach (and you cannot fake it, must be sincere), is that whatever you do, is just cause you want to, don't say cause I love you. If you have issues, you want the chance to demonstrate your changes, but without making him feel obligated. Is not easy, is what plan a is all about. Your first goal is no contact, but it has to be his decision, freely made...if he can't do it, you have to go to plan b at some point. That is all there is too it, not really complicated, just hard to do. Your we is proably confused, does not know what to do, feels trapped (and angry), defiant, and is gonna be extremely sensitive to manipulation (whether real or not). Try not to despair, look at this as a job, you will get the hang of it..... Be firm, but patient, and realize you cannot make him do/feel anything, and that you must make it clear while you do not want to give up, that you will still be ok if he chooses to leave. Good luck.

OK SNL - i've actually hopped to your defense (to the extent I can) tonight, but this post really, really irritated me. You don't seem to be trying even<BR>one little bit. It seems that you expect your wife to make all the changes. She's trying but I bet you don'thold her, don't touch her, I bet you don't do a darn thing except expect her to take care of the kids and the household and you. <P>Yes, I'm lbing on you. but can't you understand, she is a real human, just like you, with real human feelings, and that you are shattering her self worth? What a man you are.<BR>

is ok eyes, she gets lots of affection now, and I even made myself do some when we were at serious odds with each other, but she found that unsatisfying as well. The point is one cannot demand affection, and actually seeing her so distraught just made me want to leave all the more, cause I was the source of her unhappiness. You can't fake feelings, that is the hard part of this, I could only be what I was, I am not saying it was fair or not, just the reality. However, when she stopped demanding, a strange thing happened, my caring and protective circuits started kicking in more. I will let you ponder that. Thanks for the LB, no problem. Let me ask you something though, would you want affection that was forced? Or do you want genuine affection? I could have given my wife pity affection, so she would not be shattered, but that seemed even worse. She would ask if I wanted to do it, I could either lie (huge LB right?) or tell her the truth, I didn't want to do it, just doing it out of guilt and pity. I told her the truth, she told me don't bother then. A hard place eyes, what do you do?

Remember that movie about the baseball field - can't remember the name - but the resounding line was If you Build it they Will Come. If you just try...try a little flirtation. Try grabbing a butt just in play, things can happen. Why do the WS have so so much disdain for their BS? Because they know, that THEY know their deepest darkest secrets and they are what, embarrased? don't want to deal with it?, just plain gonna ignore it? You seem a very intelligent man, SNL, but dang it, tell us exactly what your wife has done to make you dislike her so much. Other than catch you with your OP and take away your toy.

bump.<P>Waiting for a reply from snl.

ok eyes, I was going to bed but ya got me with the bump.... Can't speak for any ws but me, but it is not disdain...it is 2 things.<P>1. I do not want to get her hopes up with contrived behaviour, want her to know my mind/heart exactly, so she is free to make up her own mind. Yes I can play her like a fiddle, I know how she ticks, and I am very good at manipulation (if I feel like it, I would have made a terrific sociopath, but alas, I have scruples). I can make her feel like a million bucks, but if I go there, after a lifetime of being honest (except for the specific lying re the A) about my feelings, then who am I? And if I don't follow through for rest of life, she will feel betrayed, and hate my guts (and rightly so). She claims she no longer trusts me, but she does, I know it, and I have to be careful with that trust.<P>2. I am afraid. I don't want to be hurt, I tried to love her for many years, she through it away through neglect, and emotional abuse....I am very wary about ever trusting her again with my heart. So if I "try" stuff, and it works, I like it, I am torn...not only do I feel at risk, but I feel like I am betraying the ow (not cause of anything she wants, she wants for me to reconcile with wife), because I am honorable, and I gave myself to her. No one can own anyone, so we are free to do that, but it does have consequences, as I discussed in another thread. now go to bed...unless is early where you are <P>and hey OUCH, about the toy thing. My marital problems run very deep, and may or may not be fixable, but my issues with thinker have nothing to do with the trouble over A.<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited August 29, 2001).]

OMG, SNL, can't you see it? YOU are your own worst enemy. You were happy with your wife for quite a while, right? Why can't you let yourself be appreciated by someone who you openly admit appreciates you and is willing to be basically a doormat for you so that YOU can feel like a god. Are you going to sit there in your misery or do something about it. Sorry, I just feel like I just want to slap my H upside the head. Hell, I'll say it...I;m attractive, I'm about 100 pounds, I don't have many wrinkles (heck, I've had three of his babies) and guys are always hitting on me (which I tell them, sorry, I'm married, go away) (ever heard of that line?). Man, am I venting tonight. Sorry snl that you are the person that is on the receiving end.

well I am glad I am of some value tonight...ouch, you slap hard for a flyweight. Actually we have never been particularly happy, have pretty much fought since day one (well actually long before day 1). I married her to rescue her, she felt bad about herself, and had serious FOO issues, but she was a good person. I just figured if I loved her hard enough, she would change, she never did. The love was one way (and suspect, cause was based on feeling obligated cause of sex, and cause I wanted to fix her), I carried the emotional load for our marriage until I finally burned out, that pretty much sums it up. And (believe it or not) I am doing something about it. I am a proactive person, and despite my musings, and meanderings here, I am proceeding. I found MB and brought thinker here (kicking and screaming), been in no-contact (pretty much) for almost a month, do harley counseling, went to retrovaille, have spent more time together in last 3 weeks than last couple years, and so forth and so on. I don't torture her...really. Nor do I cry in my beer (well don't drink, but anyways), my life is what I made it, and I will muddle through somehow.

what???? and your trouble with thinker has nothing to do with the A??? Geez louise man, You really have to take a step back here. You f'd up. admit it. this woman loves you or she would have kicked your butt from here to peoria. Give her a break. I'm in her shoes. I know how hard it is to feel so used. So try, or leave. Simple as that.

well since troubles existed in spades long before affair, and she had threatened divorce numerous times, told me she hated me, that she didn't want to be married to me, and that I was a a failure in general...wouldn't you day there was a wee bit of trouble before the A?<P>btw...I always turned down the requests for a divorce, she was insistent, demanded we divorce...I dunno, sounds serious to me. Yes, the A complicated matters, but if anything, it has helped, she has stopped the emotional abuse.<BR>and GOODNIGHT I am falling asleep at the comp!!!<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited August 29, 2001).]

so why DID you get married if you were fighting even before.? My husband and I were passionatly in love for 5 years before we got married. And 6 years later he turned 40 and freaked out. And I'm still dealing with the consequences. It seems that you feel justified in your affair. I read your threads and I still want to slap you. Sorry, I'm on the other end of this thing. Will you please get off the computer and go just hold your wife? What a difference it could make...

The A complicated affairs???? Think about it.<P>Ok - I'm going to sleep and leaving this conversation for tonight... Good gracious, I think I'm in a very early time zone (EST). Can someone write a note for me to give to my boss tomorrow? Just tell them snl won't listen to me. :-). TRY! AGAIN!

Eyes wide open- this is SNL wife. I am unable to express myself totally. Jennifer expressed to H a couple of weeks ago that she would of not put up with what I have had to put up with. H stated to me, she would of been without a H.<BR>Don't know if he is kidding or not. But at this stage of where we are, joking is not accepted very well. Too sensitive to laugh very much, when you are not certain of what is real or not. <P>Haven't slept all night, troubled evening after talking with Jennifer. H seemed to get quite moody after counseling with Jennifer. <P>Ask H how I have been doing on taking care of things, taking care of needs, and meeting a lot of his EN. He told Jennifer I have been doing great. Would love to see it on the posts, maybe in time I will. <P>H has done quite a bit around here, came back to our bedroom, rearranged the furniture, make it quite comfy and brought both our computers up to the bedroom. I like having him back, he has fixed quite a few things in the room. He calls it our little apartment. H does make some remarks that should be kept to himself, maybe in time that will mend. He is trying to show more affection and more caring.<P>Affair stopped about 2 or 3 weeks ago, but H has lapsed in checking to see if her phone is still in use. Not a lot, but just a few times. Jennifer tried to explain how this is still a connection. I asked H last night if he would please erase her phone off of his phone list on his cellular. Response was not good, but we will see. Yes the WS personality is not normal for the person you married. I see my H as someone different. Through counseling, she said it will be quite a while before you see the real H come out. <P>H talks about trust "She claims she no longer trusts me, but she does, I know it, and I have to be careful with that trust." quoted from his post, have to learn how to bring in quotes, maybe will ask H today. The trust factor is not there. For H to think that I trust him, I have told him I don't. There is no reason to trust him, and still can't trust him with his emotional upheavel. Moods are so wide spread. Asked Jennifer when the trust will start coming back, cause I feel maybe I should start trusting him anyway and she said not until H is completely caring and thoughtful towards me 100%. Would love H to do the Plan according to the Harleys 100%, would be an answer to my prayers, and to Jennifers. She told me to call her this week if need additional help. I might call her today to see if I can talk to her for a little while. Last night was not good. We have counseling next week, then taking a week off. <P>Hopefully, H will POJA on assignment Jennifer gave us for this week. I am stressed out, and feel emotionally drained and would love to have a H there that is there 100%.<P>faith4us - I have gone through many emotional issues of not being able to do anything right. Jennifer stated to me that my H looked at me with negative eyes, and I could not possibly be happy with him. This is part of the WS thinking and guilt. They had the euphoria and fantasy of the OP and that is all that they see. If the WS and the OP were to marry, the chance of it making it are 0. They did not run a household, live with each others shortcomings, deal with bills, contracts, mood swings, on a daily basis. All they got was the good days, and the good parts of the OP. I have talked to my H, OW. She admits that with her counseling it was fantasy and euphoria. She realizes that in real life it would of been quite different. Actually she stated that it wouldn't of worked out. <P>Needless to say, I didn't want to talk to the OW, but she called me the last day she quit talking to my H. I give her credit for that, she promised me she would not talk to my H and she has kept her promise. H did leave her a couple of voicemails, but no response, at least that is what H says. I have posted on other posts, that this OW threatened me with suicide if her H ever finds out about this affair over the phone conversation. I feel and the OW counselor feels there is something mentally wrong with her, nothing medication can't help. Nothing real serious either. I offered her help with the crisis center in her town, and she refused said she was going to do errands. Manipulation was dominant in her conversation and I feel sorry for her that she had to resort to that. This is the OW 2nd EA & PA.<P>Keep trying to do Plan A and no LB. I found this the most difficult task in my life. More so because the WS thinks of themselves and doesn't think of the BS until after the initial emotional disaster comes out. It is almost like Pablos experiment with the dog, do what comes with first reaction and then they start to look at how they act and work to correct it. <P>I found that through counseling, I take a walk with the dogs out in the fields and to the creek. I need this time to talk to God and talk through conversations that had happened that day, and tell myself I am a good person and am dealing with someone who is different now. I also focused on this in the beginning almost every minute of the day. I lost weight, not that heavy to begin with. I couldn't focus very well on anything in the beginning, when I found out for sure H was having an affair. He told me at the time was only an EA. Found out about 3 weeks ago it was PA as well. I talked to Jennifer and said it feels like I regressed back to 6 months ago. I got very sick to my stomach this time, and cried extensively. Marriage on my part was a committment for life, and I would not let another man touch my body. One time, H was out of town, we had a painter painting our house and he slept in the basement. He took a shower with the bathroom door open and walked out with a towel around his middle. Said lets talk in your bedroom, that was enough for me, and made it clear that I loved my H and for him to go down stairs. I locked the door to the basement. <P>Keep yourself busy, I cleaned a lot and arranged drawers and shelves and organized big time. This is a way I cope in getting things done. I still ran the office of our business not 100%, cause I wasn't there 100%.Now H and I are going on service calls together and I find this time with him to be beneficial. Gives us time to talk and work together. I enjoy working with him and am learning the tools and parts of the equipment he works on. Will look at the posts later and hope you can try to smile today. Take care.