Let's get this in perspective. You know your wife has a substance abuse problem, and apparently she <I>is</I> cheating and has become a <I>very</I> accomplished liar who can very quickly sell you something you can step in for free at any stockyard. <P>You have children who are going to grow up with only that to model themselves on if you do what you said you want to do. Do you want to find yourself in Hell, and to compound your torment, realize that the W and Ks are there too? <P>You are in a battle. There will be losses, and confusion and terror and dust and despondency and gallantry and nobility and sacrifice and ultimately, we hope, triumph. <I>You</I> must not be the one who breaks ranks and runs to the rear, wild-eyed and jabbering. <I>You</I> must be the one bearing the standard, the one the enemy most wants to lock in their gunsights, the one whose indomitable resolve ultimately breaks the enemy's will. <P>How can a lying, cheating drunk defeat a sober, focused godly man? Can you tell me how that could happen? It can't happen unless you panic and drop your sword and shield and strip off your armor and run screaming from the field of honor. <P>Do yourself a favor and go rent <I>Rocky</I>. Call the Harleys too. And think about assembling a team for an intervention. And I wouldn't go to visiting day. Ms. Bad Influence and your wife need to part company, or whatever good that rehab dos for MBI will be destroyed by her reassociation with your wife. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited August 24, 2001).]

Impy, <P>Please get yourself to an al-anon meeting!<P>And if you're really feeling suicidal, call that suicide hotline! They can help (I've used them before!)<P>You have kids, impy, you cannot just checkout when things are rough.<P>Al-anon can help you battle these roller coaster emotions - whether your marriage works or not - your children's mom will still have a drinking problem, and you (and your kids) will still be dealing with it.<BR>

Well I just had a word with the wife. Told her how i felt once and for all. I apologized for not handling my emotions as smothly as I would like but tried to make her understand that life has not been a bowl of cherries lately. I told her that despite my shortcomings that at the worse of my times I never quit on her. I never quit on my family. I may have been depressed and unable to focus on the marriage and my business and her needs and my needs but I never bailed on her because the going got rough. Marriage is not like a pair of shoes I told her. I'll throw those away because the don't feel good or look good or maybe they are out of style. Marriage is something that you work on and you fight for. When you have a spouse that has sacrificed and struggled and made tremendous changes to better himself in order to better the marriage is not the time to quit. It's like a spouse going to rehab while in recovery. You don't bail on them while there trying there best to recapute their life and dignity. They took the courageous step of self analysis and made gut wrenching changed to better themselves while the other spouse quits on them. I told her I would never ask her to come back to a marriage that was the status quo. The last thing I said was it must be nice knowing that your spouse does love you through thick and thin. NO matter what they will always be there fighting for you and the marriage and the children. If you were in a terrible car accident and couldn't wipe your butt tommorrow, i would be there toilet paper in hand because that is what love does. Not better deal you by saying well you said you don't want to be married no more. I know she would be there for a week or so out of guilt but she would rationalize it by saying I told him I didn't want to be married before the accident. That is not love. I'm bitter. Bitter is better then feeling sorry for myself at this point. You can't make a person love you. You know I have lost over 45 pounds and she haven't said as much as god job or you look great. Luckily I did it for me and not her.

Out of the blue SF today and I was totally surprised. I need someone that can see a pattern in this saga to let me know what is going on!!

Oh, I see a pattern alright: she's yanking a chain and you are at the end of it. If it were me, I would be laying down a few ground rules and taking the upper hand and perhaps delivering a few ultimatums. Aren't you getting a little tired of it?<P>Em

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>Out of the blue SF today and I was totally surprised. I need someone that can see a pattern in this saga to let me know what is going on!!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi, I'm Mike's labrador retriever puppy, and, by god, I've recognized a pattern <P>Impy, you suffer from a typical male complex which is that if there is sex everything must be all right, and if there isn't you are on the window ledge. So your only measuring stick on this relationship is sex -- you get it, you are happy, you ghet rejected, you are miserable.<P>Now, affair ir not, perhaps once in awhile your wife just physically wants sex, and, as a long time sexual companion, you are there to satisfy that physical urge. <P>These episodes may be irrelvant data to the state of your marriage.<P>Overlay on top of that her less than dead feelings for you and the constant guilt and pressure (not incesasant, perhaps, but relatively constant) she feels from you about your sexual needs. Not always spoken, perhaps, but it is always there. So once in awhile she breaks down and has sex in order to keep the peace....she isn't ready to sever totally.<P>You have to throw out sex as a relationship measuring tool, and get to work on her heart. You know Steve's number. The rest of this is red herrings and false trails, my friend. <P>

Remember that when you <I>do</I> get SF, rather than demanding more, you need to just make sure that she has no reason whatsoever to regret her decision. Keep her as happy as you can. Even if that means going along with some things you don't really like.

Why in the world is Impulsive supposed to continue walking on eggshells. Does he love his wife? Of course he does. Does he want to save his marriage? Well obviously with 42 pages of misery written down here. I have followed this post since the very beginning, until now I have never found the urge to post a reply because I feel that Imp. has really great supporters alread, but now I have to disagree. First off how long is this woman going to punish him for the things he didn't do in the past? The saga has been non stop for almost 7 mo. several months too long in my opinion. She is playing him like a musical instrument, Is there and affair? Yes. Impulsive in this one love is most definately BLIND. This is a support group here so support him, this has not been good for him or the children, anyone that has children knows that they are aware of what's going on in their own household. He needs to get out of this situation, and he needs to stop giving her her cake and eating it too. She has been manipulative the whole way, she has it soooo good, she can treat you like Sh*t, she can crush all your hopes and your dreams but big daddy is there to kiss her butt. PLEASE!! IMPULSIVE YOU NEED TO SAVE YOURSELF, AND SAVE YOUR CHILDREN. MAKE HER MAKE A CHOICE NOW, AND STICK TO IT. IT ALREADY HURTS, SO IF SHE DOESN'T MAKE THE CHOICE YOU WANT SO BADLY TO HEAR ARE YOU REALLY GOING TO BE SUPRISED? Get back your self respect, and trust God more than you have been, he doesn't judge those who get out of unGodly marriages. YOU HAVE DONE ALL THAT YOU CAN DO. Take that for what it is and find your family some PEACE.

I don't think anybody is advocating <I>doormathood</I>, but there are things Impy himself does that create problems. Avoid those, and he may have more leverage where it really counts. With Ms. Bad Influence off in rehab, his influence is all the greater, provided he doesn't trigger withdrawal from the wife. <P>There was apparently a lot of damage done over the years. The wife isn't <I>purposefully</I> dragging him through the things he's going through. She's <I>broken</I>, and he is undertaking the difficult task of getting her to realize it and start making the kinds of efforts he made to fix himself. <P>If he walks out on his <I>ungodly</I> marriage, there is a heavy cost for everyone involved.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kelli_35:<BR><B>Does he want to save his marriage?</B><BR> <BR><B>MAKE HER MAKE A CHOICE NOW, AND STICK TO IT.</B><P>Kelli, I admire your conviction and energy I would opine that the above two statements may well conflict right now.<P>My marriage did not include an affair, but my W was emotionally gone, and it took a long time to even get her to where she was considering the relationship in terms of long term. I counseled with Steve Harley, and after many months of Plan A , I was ready for ultimatums and Plan B. He said "That's what she expects, and she is ready for the marriage to die." <P>There is a place for laying down the gauntlet, I suppose, but it is only after a long and successful Plan A. Impy's Plan A has been heroic in many senses, but sort of up and down, by his own admission. My was too, but after some more months, Steve Harley said to me "You have her confused" which he thought was an excellent piece of progress. Now, 18 months into it or so, I think my W values our marriage again. But I had to overcome a lot of selfish behvior in my past, as does Impy, and it takes time.<P>Now....with Impy, there is the specter of an affair, or perhaps the reality of an affair, and that changes the playing field. For one thing, it probably delays the point where his W will bring her heart back to the relationship. We don't know whether she is in an active affair, or getting over one. Either way, she appears to be in the fog, and right now doesn't have a lot invested in the relationship.<P>If Impy wants to recover this marriage, he has a very slim and meandering path to follow. He will need a lot of patience. It would be nice if a simple ultimatum would snap his W out of it, but I really don't think so. I think he needs to get with Steve Harley and get a warroom going, because it is Defcon 2 here.<P>Kelli, I see this is your first post. Welcome! What is your story? (start a new thread, I beg you! ) <P>

I am not advocating divorce here my any means. I have been married for 10 yrs, and been seperated 2 times( 4 mo, then 3 mo). I as well as most of you know what it feels like to live in the same household as a withdrawn spouse. I had it both ways, If I could have chosen it would have most definately been a seperate house seperation. Living with her is too much for impulsive, he gets mixed signals, and can't help but want to play house. It's hard for her to gain respect for him because he has been on his knees begging her to love him. Him making the improvements he's made physically and otherwise is wonderful, but he has to change for him without her in mind. She needs to see him as strong, that is what brought my withdrawn spouse back to me, and believe me he was very withdrawn. After I cried, begged, pleaded literally on my knees, he withdrew further. I then began living for me, our life was an arrangement, we NEVER slept in the same bed, he began to see me and fell in love with a new woman. To her Impulsive is doing all of this to get her back, she resents it. Impulsive you shouldn't withdraw, withdrawing is not good for anybody. Just start living for you, and stick to it. You keep regressing, and all your doing is punishing yourself. One post says that your withdrawn the next day your seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. Smile more, get involved somehow in your community, start reading a good book, and get counseling for you to get through this time in your life. Sis, wants to blame MS. Bad Influence, but you'd be in the same equation you're in without her. No more backrubs, no more talks, no more sf, just stay friendly (for you and the children). Don't try to get back what you thought you had, things won't ever be the way they were between you before this happened, sometimes better, and others the best of counseling can't save.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kelli_35:<BR><B>It's hard for her to gain respect for him because he has been on his knees begging her to love him. Him making the improvements he's made physically and otherwise is wonderful, but he has to change for him without her in mind. She needs to see him as strong, that is what brought my withdrawn spouse back to me, and believe me he was very withdrawn. After I cried, begged, pleaded literally on my knees, he withdrew further.</B><P>You make an interesting point, and I don't think it is one that is extrapolated enough in MB's writings, although it is clearly part of the counseling. I think many people, me and Impulsive included, execute a portion of Plan A without really getting the whole picture.<P>-- Plan A needs to be done from an aspect of zero pressure for your own ENs. <P>-- Plan A has to have an upbeat attitude without any depressed, pleading, clinging, guilt-inducing behavior. That is lovebusting.<P>-- Oftentimes, I think, Plan A has to be done without discussion about the relationship, becasue that can be lovebusting to the withdrawn spouse and crushing to the spouse executing Plan A. Count how many relationship discussions Imp has had in these threads. <P>-- A by-product of Plan A, I think, is a slow realization....err...a comparison of your own enlightened efforts and the lousy partner skills that your spouse may be exhibiting, or at least the effort they are putting out. I think that leads to the 'strength' you discuss, Kelli. Instead of looking at your world as exploding if this person wasn't in your life, a part of you now has higher expectations for marital behavior. I think there is a window where this new attitude can be attractive and pull the other mate back in. But that window can close.<P>Anyway, I still think what Imp needs is to counsel with Steve.<P>

We had a little situation here in the last couple of days. My wife recieved a email from my 15 yr. old daughter that was staying with us for a time this summer. My daughter basically told her that she is not the same person she used to be and she doesn't like the person she is now even a little bit and that she is rude and disrespectful. She also told her that she said some things about me that she either heard or over heard but that she didn't appreciate her saying anything negative about me to anyone where she could hear it. My daughter is not usually this blunt or to the point but she was obviously in pain when she wrote the email. I walked up on the wife while she was reading it and crying and she was very emotional. She said that she feels like the villian. Everyone looks at her as the bad person now but when I was the bad person no one made me feel that way. Now that I have changed I still get the free ride. I told her that this is not about laying blame it's about the emotional and mental health of our children. She said i just don't trust you. I just can't bring myself to trust you. I understand that I haven't been very trustworthy in the past but I feel like living in the past in not productive for anyone. Anyway I was going to try and be loving and affectionate even though she won't reciprocate but I'm tired and I think I'm going to take kelli's advice until I talk to harley. It's time for me to live for me and stop looking for her approval.

<p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited August 29, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>She said i just don't trust you. I just can't bring myself to trust you. I understand that I haven't been very trustworthy in the past but I feel like living in the past in not productive for anyone.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Trust for you guys is a journey. Once you get into counseling with the Harley's that journey can begin.<P>My advice to you is to avoid using your daughter's attack to twist a knife in your W's guts, and instead support her in what would be a trustbuilding exercise.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited August 29, 2001).]

My daughter apologized so she is feeling a little better about that situation. My wife and I and the boys went to one of my son's hockey games last night. During the drive my wife noticed I was wearing my grubby jeans that I know she hates. So she says you have been dressing so nice lately why the change? I said I have been dressing nice for 6 months. I've lost almost 50 pounds and over the course of 6 months ou have'nt given me one compliment or one positive piece of feedback! However as son as I look grubby one time your quick to notice? I told her in a lighthearted tone your unbelieveable. She said well everytime in the past when i said lose weight and you did as soon as I mentioned and noticed progress you stopped almost immedietely and started gaining it all back. I didn't say a word. I'm very tired right now. I've been doing a lot of thinking about Kelli's last post. I've been at her beck and call for a long time now. I have'nt shown her any independence or courage under fire. I've shown her that I love my family very much and that I able and willing to endure a whole lot of pain and humiliation in order to save my marriage. Who have I been living for these last 6 months?

<B><I>Now</I></B> is not the time to backslide. <P>Don't wear clothes to provoke. Don't say things to provoke. Be as wise as a serpent and as gentle as a lamb. <P>Remember, you're going through this not just for her, but for you and for your kids. Focus on getting a handle on the alcohol, and a handle on the affair (which has to end, pronto). <P>You have come so, so far. You and your daughter have given her so much to think about. I think you're closer than you could ever realize or dream. Just stay on the field, keep racking up points, and look to your faith for the strength to do so. Time is very much on your side.

The one thing I have been doing every morning before I leave for work is kissing her on the forehead and telling her to have a wonderful day. Today despite her negative tone lately I kissed her and said have a great day and she said you know you don't have to kiss me on the forehead anymore. I said why? She said it just feels weird. I didn't let her know it but something inside me just snapped. I said to her I have never seen anybody in my life so resistant to love. That's it. No more kisses, no more warm and fuzzy hugs trying to show her that I love her even though she doesn't want to except it. I will try my hardest not to be bitter or stop speaking to her all together, however once you've been kicked in the teeth so many times while trying to be sweet and loving it starts to get old fast.

Imp,<BR>I understand you are tired of the roller coaster - my GAWD, who wouldn't be? You are driving yourself absolutely nuts. <P>I have followed your saga and read every post on all 43 pages - I have to admit I couldn't do it all at once. Had to stretch it over a two day period and I am exhausted from just reading it. Living it has to be unbearable. But, you are bringing so much of it on yourself.<P>I know that in many cases we can't see how our own behavior is causing us the pain. We want what we want when we want it! Your problem is you can't get out of your own way to get to what you want. You are not in Plan A and I don't think you have been the entire time. You are still trying to force your wife to feel for you what you want her too. You are trying to play pool with a rope for a cue stick. <P>Mike and others have advised you over and over and you will not take any advice offered, so I am confused as to why you continue to post. It seems you are waiting for someone to say - Good job, keep it up, seems to be working. Well, that is not honest. It doesn't seem to be working. For example, your wife has told you verbally and otherwise that she is not interested in you sexually right now. And you respond by continuing to try and rub her back, buy her sexy lingerie, kiss and hug her. All she can see is that you obviously don't believe what she says or don't respect her desires. You defend your behavior by saying, "she likes affection." Well, it doesn't appear she likes it from you right now. The SF encounters you love to post about seem to be mostly alcohol induced. I would stop drinking right now, if for no other reason than you do not need to be in an altered state of any kind.<P>You have done some very good work on yourself. You have faced some harsh truths and put some good plans for your future into action. You want your wife to recognize and respond to the changes. That is understandable. She is not ready. By your own admission you have a tremendous amount of bad behavior to make up for. Who knows how much time it will take or if it will ever happen? You keep setting yourself up to "get kicked in the teeth" by your own expectations. Take a long hard look in the mirror and I think you will see that the enemy is you.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Reality<BR>It's not what you think

I'm sorry but this is directed to the last post. Impulsive is still posting for support, he needs someone to listen to what it is that he is going through. He has set himself up from time to time I admit it, but he has also shown great progress in a lot that he has done for himself. It's very hard to know what to do when you're this close to the situation, after reading your post I'm wondering if you've ever been abandoned by a spouse? It's extremely difficult and it's hard to trust your own emotions any longer.I think that your post was completely unsupportive and a little rude.<P>Impulsive I didn't say that you shouldn't speak to your wife at all, but not in a overbearing emotional way. Friendliness is crucial, but having sf is not. She said she didn't trust you, so become her friend (only), make yourself happy, surround yourself with friends & family and work on yourself and the children. You cannot change your wifes mind, the more you try the more she will pull away. Over time the more she allows herself to trust her new established "friend", she may be able to fall in love with you again. Mike is so right, you do need to get into counseling, you need to focus on more positive things. At 15 your daughter cannot be allowed in the middle of this, her relationship with your wife must stay seperate from your marriage. Good Luck, and focus on just one day at a time.