I've been lurking around the forums for quite a bit after exhausting all of the articles and Q&A the website offers. After discovering a series of EA and attempts at PA by my FWW I looked through a lot of information, but only with MB have I been able to come to an understanding of events and how to proceed. I believe I was able to make a bit of progress, but then the forums went down and I started to revert to the typical BH. I do not like that person, but sometimes I feel like I can not resist the pull without reading about the ongoing struggles and the help they receive on these threads.

In '10 there was a PA (only a kiss, so she says) - DD #1
In '12 there were 2 EA
In '13 there was an EA
In '15 sexualized fantasizing about coworker
In '16 there were 2 separate EA, and then multiple situations of fantasizing about co-workers and my brother
In '17 there was an attempt at PA - DD#2

We have a 5yo DD and a 2yo DS.

In 2010 with the PA I found out through happenstance, but was not able to verify all details. Anything that I was unable to physically prove was never divulged until DD#2 in December of 2017.

During that discovery I was accused of violating privacy, blowing everything out of proportion, and then blamed for why it happened. The two major things I accused WW of was that it became physical (denied until 2 months after DD#2) and that she told the OM she was single (also denied until DD#2)

During DD#2 I was pretty defeated and just called asking for WW to come clean and tell me everything if she actually loved me, or to just let me know if I should leave. I had a lot of evidence for multiple EA, and just wanted a confession instead of an interrogation. It turned into an interrogation that even up to today there are still things being lied about. Again, I was accused of violating privacy, blowing things out of proportion, and blamed.

One of the biggest parts of our 'recovery' that I have asked for explicitly is radical honesty, and some sense that W has remorse for her actions. At time she feels like a model FWW, and we set up some great EP. Then, a week ago, I discovered FWW lied about something silly after swearing up and down to be honest. I gave multiple chances for her to come clean with the heavy implication that I knew she was lying, but she stuck with her story to the proverbial grave until I gave irrefutable evidence. A very unfortunate, but common, event.

I have taken steps with the MB program to help improve myself to better meet her ENs - something I was quite atrocious at throughout almost all of our entire relationship. I know I am severely at fault for a lot of our issues, and have been a huge catalyst for why the WW did the things she did. I love her, and I have not shown it. I do not want to give up on us, but I can not help feel that no matter how much change happens, it will only ever be temporary. My dear W is very much harboring resentment for me due to all of the things I've done to her, and has spent some time with MB concepts. And I believe is occasionally reading some of the LB book.

At this time I just stopped giving a 3-day silent treatment in retaliation to being given a night where she refused to talk to me. I can be very petty, and vengeful, and resentful. I was reading the MB site at least once a day, and perusing some of the old threads in an effort to constantly remind myself that the goal is to repair us, and not nuke us into the ground with mutually assured destruction. When I stopped making an active effort things went downhill fast and I got very scared because if I don't lead our recovery, who will?

TL;DR - So with that preface gone ; I am begging any other BS to help me find a way to believe my WW is a FWW, and how can I recover from the effects of gaslighting and 'trickle truth' that has lasted for 7 years?

Hi senyk, welcome to Marriage Builders. Are you married? If so, how long? Did you live together before marriage? Have either of you ever had an affair before this marriage? How did you meet her?

Your wife does not have affairs because of unmet emotional needs, but because she is trolling for action. There is nothing Marriage Builders can do for you unless she stops doing that. The MB program is intended for couples who find themselves in a bad place from unmet needs, not because one spouse feels entitled to have affairs and is actively seeking them.

Why does she have affairs? Have you asked her about her philosophy of marriage?

I would agree. You feel this way because it is true. Unless she stops trolling for action, you will be dealing with this forever. If she is sincere about change, she would open up her life to you so it would be impossible for her to cheat again. Will she give you full access to everything and agree to EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS to prevent another affair?

Thank you for the welcome, Melody.

We have been together for 9 years, married for 8, and did live together prior to the tying the knot. We met at a Halloween party that both of us had been heavily coerced into going, and hit it off.

I believe that W has never cheated in previous relationships, but she has told me that she was cheated on once with a PA . For me, this relationship has been the only serious one in my life and I have not stepped out.

We sat down one day and looked over one of the EP threads that had popped up that we both thought would be sufficient, and we decided to put it into place. Since doing that however, I have been able to catch her in falsehoods; with RH being #1 on the list of EP. Each time this occurs, there is always a round of 'deep thinking' and promises of change on her part.

I am very much technically savvy, but I unfortunately was always forced to show my hand to prove a lie; thus giving her knowledge of how I obtained my information. It is to the point where no matter how many ways I can set up safeguards I will always be convinced that she can think of a way around it because she already knows all of my tricks.

I was a bit taken aback, Melody, by the "trolling for action" comment. I am in many ways a miserable human being and I know that I rub off very wrongly on some people. Callous and un-affectionate are pretty generous terms to describe me; so while I thoroughly believe a BS is never the cause, I am most definitely a contributor and I feel like my total inability to cover her EN adequately is a factor for affairs. Also, I know that she has been in a state of depression since 2011 that she has never been able to fully recover from.

When I asked her about the 'why' of the affairs it was at first to blame me. When I refused to accept that as the only answer it became more of: 'It made me feel good and wanted,' and 'I wanted to start over again with someone who doesn't know all the bad things I've done'.

You could have met her needs 100% and never committed a single lovebuster and she would have still had affairs. A person does not accidentally have that many affairs unless they are actively looking for it.


The basis of those comments is: I feel entitled to have affairs. Her philosophy of marriage does not support fidelity. As long as she feels entitled to have affairs because they make her feel "good and wanted" she will always be a high risk to you because she will always be looking for something better. She is the freeloader who does nothing to maintain the house, but keeps her options always open.

Have you ever spoken to any of her exes to see if she did this in the past? I would wager she had other affairs but didn't want you to know she "wanted to start over again with someone who doesn't know all the bad things I've done."

Do you have full access to all of her phones, ipads, computers? Does she have any unaccounted time? Does she go out at night? The violation of privacy accusation is pretty typical of a cheater. They have to construct a secret 2nd life in order to cheat.

As of right now there is no ability for her to have any unaccounted for time, and no odd trips out at night. I have full access to everything, but still have a niggling sense of there being a way if there's a will.

I never did feel the need to check with any of the previous exes; even to me right now it feels like an excessive violation to go that far back into the history. A dumb feeling, all things given. It would probably be a good idea to do it though.

Do you have hidden recorder in the house? What about a GPS on her car? Have you looked around for an affair phone?

Even so, I would emphasize that catching her AGAIN is just an exercise in futility as long as her philosophy of marriage means she is entitled to have affairs. It won't stop her from having affairs, especially since she is looking for it.

When you say you have full access, I assume that means she knows of every possible way you would snoop, right?


Dr.Harley actually recommends that you interview exes before you get married so you learn more about your future spouse. It's no more a violation than an employer contacting past employers.

My situation with my serial cheater WxH was very similar. He acted very commited to recovery - however I would become very concerned when I could see that he was still not being radically honest and transparent. I spoke to Dr Harley about this issue personally.

What people don't realize is that having a SSL(secret second life) becomes a bad habit that is VERY hard to break. A good first step a WS can take towards giving up their SSL is by taking a poly.

Not only is a poly the only way to be sure that you have gotten the full truth of the nature and extent of all past affairs (and therefore set up appropriate EPs) but the WS is likely to keep lying if they have not revealed everything they have been doing in their SSL.

Would your wife be willing to take a poly?

BTW, you should just assume that most if not all of those EAs were, in fact, PAs unless the affairees had ZERO access to each other physically.

What were the EPs that you had set up?

Did you know that what Dr Harley recommends for serial cheaters such as your W is to make cheating impossible? That means being together 24/7, she shouldn't have access to the internet without you being right next to her, etc, she probably shouldn't have a smart phone, etc. She shouldn't even be going out and running errands without you.

It concerns me because you sound very much like a BS who does not feel very safe at all - and if all those conditions were changed, then you should feel safe because there would be no chance for your W to interact with any men.

Can you tell us what EPs you�ve put in place? Have you been tested for STD/STIs?

Were any of her affairs exposed? Were any of the OM married?

I can think of only one way that she "forced" you to reveal your sources and only one reason why checking on her past is a bigger violation than the snooping she now accepts.

She's okay with check ups, as long as she knows they are coming and can fake the results. She 'forces' you into this because you know she'd leave you if you didn't allow her some illusions.

What if you refused to tell her how you got information? That you just promised her you would always know what was happening, keep changing methods and never reveal how? If she would leave you for that, you have your answer.

What if you spoke to people from her past and she stopped having the ability to be editor in chief of her image? If she would leave you for that, you have your answer.

How would she react to exposures? The key stone to affair recovery because it removes the ability to BS everyone.

To a poly? Would her remorse vanish with that word?

My point is: do what this programme recommends you need to do to be safe in your marriage. If she is truly remorseful she will be giddy with delight that there is a way to make you feel that way in spite of what she's done.

If she's not, she's a phony.